Hello from a confused member

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[confusedandsearching]

Hello all,

I am in a state of mass confusion right now. I stumbled across this site earlier today and I have not been able to stop reading. I see posts about the church that I attend and I recognize things that I never thought about before. I don't know what to believe. I feel like I know nothing about my church anymore. Is everything that I've been told a lie? I have so many questions and I don't know who to ask. I'll probably post back later once I have gathered my thoughts.

[Huldah]

I just wanted to say welcome. No, not everything you've been told is a lie. There are some good things at GCx churches, or else you wouldn't have chosen to be part of one (nor would your parents, if you're second-generation GCx). But there's some bad teaching that got mixed in with the good, and it's the bad teaching that has caused so many problems. Many of us here have experienced the same confusion you're feeling; we've survived it, and we've found hope at the other end. When you're ready to post again, please be assured that you'll get a respectful, compassionate hearing.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Welcome!  Oh gosh, I remember when I first did the search on "GCM cult" and came up with info.  That was in maybe 2003 or so.  It took awhile to leave and to process all of it.  I don't know that it would be classified as a cult today.  It has morphed into a sort of "shepherding" group or "authoritarian group".  I know the confused feeling, and I'm so sorry you are going through that.  There is a lot of information to sort through.  Good luck and take your time.  I hope we can be of some help.

[trthskr]

Ah. 
Hello me from 2 years ago, Nice to meet you.

This is probably very confusing.  I would recommend that you keep on doing some searching on this site, with discernment of course because some of the things posted on here are from members who were part of the church in the 70s and 80s, when things were quite a bit worse than they are now.  I think some of the problems have been dealt with.

However, also please be honest with yourself.  Sayings such as "every church has problems, no church is  perfect" - are used often by people in leadership at GCx to kind of say that your concerns are not valid.  If you stumbled upon this site, my guess is that you had some concerns before you found it.  Its a good idea to listen to these gut instincts.

I would also recommend NOT speaking with a church leader until you have had some time to do some research and learn more about this group.  They tend to "smooth things over" and hush-hush your concerns before you even know what you are thinking.  And you should really be thinking for yourself.

Pray about it as well.  God will reveal the truth. 

[truthorliesgcm]

I am somewhat in the same boat right now. I'm not a member of the church, I've just started attending it but it's so confusing. I feel like what I see at the church and what I read here are two completely different churches, but at the same time, there has to be truth to both of it.

[EverAStudent]

Welcome to the forum, Confused!  Ask whatever you like whenever you like.

If you want to do research, I would recommend starting with the historical element first.  Who was Jim McCotter, what did he teach, how was he involved with teaching the men who founded your church, what materials that he autographed are still in use today, what were Jim's beliefs on leadership and how did he implement them?  I believe you will find the denomination has not moved far from those early doctrinal aberrations.  Moreover, I do not think any one of the leaders in your church will be willing to specifically and explicitly cite any particular doctrine that they feel Jim taught improperly, much less those on leading.  If not, that should tell you what is below the glossy surface is the same old GC rust.

[Linda]

Welcome. I am sorry you found yourself in a position of mass confusion. That is not a fun place to be.

I, also, remember the doing a random Google search of "Great Commission Churches and cults" and the sinking, horrifying, nauseating feeling I got when links came up. (At the time there weren't nearly as many links as there are now and this forum had not been started.)

Also, trthskr made a good point. If you stumbled upon this site because you were wondering about GC, then perhaps you already had some doubts. Not everything about GC or it's leaders is bad. There are some really nice people who are leaders and who attend GC churches. This is what makes it hard when you realize that some of their practices/teaching is "off".

Also, I really find this link helpful. The last section on "Safe Groups/Leaders" is a more positive way of helping people be careful in their decision making.

http://www.rickross.com/warningsigns.html

[confusedandsearching]

Thanks for the welcome everyone.

I'm still trying to sort through my thoughts and I'll be back later to post a better explanation.

I just wanted to clarify one thing before it got too big. I didn't stumble upon this site because I had any concerns. I just did a basic search to see if my church had been mentioned on any forums and this site is one of the first that popped up. That's all. 

I'll be back soon when I need to talk through more things.

[confusedandsearching]

Here's a more complete introduction.

I started attending my GC church when I started college. I had grown up in a Christian family and become a Christian at a young age. I was attracted to the way the people in the church loved God and were sold out for Him. They were friendly and loving and I was attracted to the lifestyle that they were living. Nobody tried particularly hard to reach out to me because I was already a Christian.

But I quickly became involved. I attended bible study and the weekly service on campus as well as the weekend service at the affiliated church. I attended conferences as they came along - fall, spring, etc. I wasn't bombarded with invitations to go to all these things because I genuinely wanted to go. I didn't feel pressured to go, but I did see how other people sometimes felt that way. I didn't attend Faithwalkers that first year as I already had other plans. I went on a mission trip over spring break and had a wonderful time sharing God's love with people that didn't know Him. 

It didn't take long for me to commit to the local church. I didn't make a lifelong commitment because I didn't know where my future would lead me, but the distinction for that rested with me and was never clarified by anybody. Nobody made me go to the membership class or commit, it was just something that seemed natural to me at that time.

I stayed for the summer leadership program and participated in that. I went to talks and did community service projects. It was okay. Not life-changing like many people around me said it was. I was growing closer to God but I never felt as if I fit in with the people around me.

Then the next school year started and as an older person on campus now, I was put into an outreach group. We met for bible study weekly as a large group (guys and girls) and had lifegroup (smaller groups of guys and girls separately) weekly. We planned outreach activities in the residence halls to meet new people and build relationships with them and eventually if there was an opportunity, to share the gospel with them. Bible studies were catered more for people that had just become Christians and never really for people that had been Christians for a while and wanted to go deeper. I always wrote that off as it being more important to cater to the younger Christians and that the others could delve deeper into the Bible in their own time.

I repeated that cycle for my entire college career. I attended bible study, lifegroup, campus service, weekend service, conferences, mission trips. I made good friends that have helped me see God more and know God more. I served a lot at the church and at various volunteer opportunities that the church found for us to serve in.

I graduated college and entered a new phase of my life. I wasn't involved in campus ministry anymore. I moved into the young adult ministry. My small group consisted of some of my best friends that I had moved through my college life with. We met for in-depth Bible discussions, often talking for hours about just one verse or topic. For the first time, I felt like I was leaving bible study with more than I had come with. We hang out a couple of nights a week, but most of the time it's just games or meals or movies. So, that's pretty much where I am right now.

I had never heard Jim McCotter mentioned in the church apart from references at regional conferences to a message that he gave a long time ago on the love of God. This message was never referred to as being a message by Jim McCotter but rather as being a message on the love of God. It is only on the website that I downloaded it from that I knew that Jim McCotter had given that message. I have listened to that message and found it helpful. However, that message definitely doesn't mention anything about his (Jim McCotter's) views on leadership. There is also a devotional based on this message that is distributed called "Cords of Love."

One thing that I really don't understand is why they will not just explain who Jim MCCotter was and why/how he left the movement. I feel deceived that he isn't more common knowledge. I think that if I knew who he was all along, I would not be feeling this way now. It makes me wonder what else is being covered up. Were the pastors at my church directly involved with Jim McCotter? Should I ask them what they think about him and his views on apostleship? Apostleship is not taught at my church. Is it actually taught at any of the other GC churches now?

I guess that's it from me for now.

[Linda]

I had never heard Jim McCotter mentioned in the church apart from references at regional conferences to a message that he gave a long time ago on the love of God. This message was never referred to as being a message by Jim McCotter but rather as being a message on the love of God. It is only on the website that I downloaded it from that I knew that Jim McCotter had given that message. I have listened to that message and found it helpful. However, that message definitely doesn't mention anything about his (Jim McCotter's) views on leadership. There is also a devotional based on this message that is distributed called "Cords of Love."

One thing that I really don't understand is why they will not just explain who Jim MCCotter was and why/how he left the movement. I feel deceived that he isn't more common knowledge. I think that if I knew who he was all along, I would not be feeling this way now. It makes me wonder what else is being covered up. Were the pastors at my church directly involved with Jim McCotter? Should I ask them what they think about him and his views on apostleship? Apostleship is not taught at my church. Is it actually taught at any of the other GC churches now?

I, also, had never heard the name Jim McCotter mentioned in our church. On occasion, I heard a pastor speak about "his former pastor in Ames" and how the man was vilified by others (especially the Des Moines Register in some articles they did in tye 70's and 80's). BTW, those articles are available here: http://gcxweb.org/Articles.aspx

I have heard him mentioned (usually just as "Jim", but on occasion his last name was used) in talks from national conferences for the past 6 years or so. Any pastor with roots going back to Ames, was taught at his feet and is on board with his views. All those men were sent to their current locations by him and in some of those situations part of their salaries were paid by him/the mother church in Ames.

Is there not a cause?  Could it have been an honor to be accused of being a cult, those many years ago?  Did we have something then, that may have been lost over the years?

I recognize that some of you are here today because of the strength of this excellent paper.  It showed a certain humility and a willingness to admit our mistakes. But if in your eyes, this is the paper that best describes our history, it would be overly self-deprecating.  God was with us in the beginning and God is with us today.  He led us then and He wants to lead us now.

Jim McCotter, a good friend to many and an early leader in this movement’s history, said the following.  It was right in the middle of a wave of very difficult persecution, that we were all facing together.  

I will never forget Jim’s words.  Even though we were being attacked, Jim saw beyond the attack, and looked ahead down the road.  
Jim said, “Join us!  If you chose not to, you will still hear about us.  What God is going to do through us.  In good report and evil report.  And you will say to yourself, ‘I once knew them.' "

I'm not sure if this wave of persecution was the one involving men being excommunicated for suggesting that "truth" was more important than "unity", or whether this one had to do with the Des Moines Register article where Jim was quoted from a parenting class and said:

On the tape, McCotter says, "When you discipline, this verse indicates, as others do, that you want to do it so it wounds. Now, when you say 'wounds,' it doesn't mean that you have a bloody mess on your hands necessarily. It doesn't mean that you have a child 'wounding' like he has a broken leg."

McCotter added in his taped sermon that this means you have been severe enough that the child's attitude at that point has been reversed.

"And he may, and often will be, black and blue," McCotter continued. "My children have been many times. And it cleans evil from them."

[confusedandsearching]

I'm going to talk to the pastors about Jim McCotter. I want to hear from them what they think about him and his views, particularly on apostleship.

Thanks for the resources, Linda.

[Huldah]

Another source of information on Jim McCotter & early GC history is the Rick Ross Archives:

http://www.rickross.com/groups/mccotter.html

[Linda]

Huldah, the Rick Ross site was the very first thing that came up when I googled Great Commission Churches and cults about 6 years ago. It was very sobering to find.

Confusedandsearching, did you read the book that is written by McCotter and Dennis Clark? Here's the link:
http://gcxweb.org/Books/Leadership/

When it comes to the issue of "apostleship", I've always wondered how they come to terms with the way elders are chosen.

As I understand, McCotter along with Dennis Clark and Herschel Martindale "recognized" each other as elders around 1970. Then, they began to "recognize" elders, who in turn "recognized" elders. What it all comes down to is that all those currently in leadership can trace their roots to three guys who one day decided that they were in charge and started a movement.

Also, have you read Marching to Zion? You might find that helpful in coming up with questions to ask. Here's the link:
http://gcxweb.org/Books/MarchingToZion/

[AgathaL'Orange]

He is such a vital figure to the establishment of GCx.  And I have yet to hear any refutation from within.  I have heard a pastor say that Jim was the most godlt man he had ever known.  And recently there has just been all kinds of wistfulness towards the early days with Jim.  As far as the "bigwigs" in the movement go, it sounds like those were the days we should be looking to as examples for zeal, commitment, loyalty, and boldness.

I think your gut feeling of "where to start" is a good one.

[trthskr]

Another interesting fact into the relationship between your church in Des Moines and Jim McCotter, is that ol' Jimmy boy is the one who mentored Tim.  Just sayin'.

[nelliepooh]

Is that true?

[Linda]

McCotter was all about unity. He excommunicated people for suggesting that while unity was important, it shouldn't trump truth. Here is a great Tozer quote about unity.

Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same [tuning] fork are automatically tuned to each other? They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow. So one hundred worshippers met together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become “unity” conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship. ~ A. W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God (1948)

[confusedandsearching]

I sent an email to all the pastors. I wonder if they'll reply to it since I did it anonymously or if they'll just ignore it.

[truthorliesgcm]

If you hear back from them, will you please share the gist of that correspondence here, either publicly or privately? I would like to know how they respond to the questions.

[guest]

trthskr: Do you know much about Jim McCotter first hand from him, a pastor or leader? Please share if you do!