Hi...

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Linda]

I know numerous ladies who have turned down a proposal from a man that they weren't interested in, with counsel from the pastors (who may have counseled the same man to approach the lady).

Aghhhhh!

[G_Prince]

Maybe when I said practices, I didn't clarify what I meant. I just mean the way things are done by some people. It's not a church-wide happening; some people do it but it's not something that is upheld by the church. If any of these were to be brought up with leadership, they would definitely disagree with it.

Honest question. Is this your own conclusion or did someone tell you this?

And yet, if you look closely enough there are a few people that practice the things that I mentioned I disagreed with. There seems to be a general characteristic about the people who practice the things that I mentioned. They were all saved in this church and have generally left very sinful lives and as a result are over-zealous. They take things to the extremes. They tend to become very legalistic in their lives and try to force it in other peoples lives. These are the people who view people as projects and don't really form relationships with people. They force their perceived authority on other people. They take anything you confide in them and take it to other people without any regard for the confidentiality of the information because they aren't mature enough to handle the information themselves. These are people who are more concerned with getting the gospel out (which is not a bad thing) than they are about doing things in a way that is glorifying to God (which is a bad thing).

And yet, these "few people" make up the core of the church. They are the people being groomed for leadership. Think about it...How many pastors, team leaders, and life-group leaders come from this rank? Now how many leaders descend from the normal people like yourself? If you stick around long enough these people will become your leaders. GCx will always accept their blind obedience to the movement, and marginalize anyone who "has concerns." It's just how the system is set up. I can guarantee you that you will see this happen if you stay long enough.   

I guess one thing that is worth mentioning is that none of the above behaviors have affected me or my walk with the Lord negatively. If anything their examples have been like a what-not-to-do guide in my own life.

I don't mean to play the psycho-therapist, but I don't believe you. I think you are underestimating how damaging these beliefs are to you. You obviously have had some hurtful experiences with these individuals and found a community on this site who you can relate with. If you thought GCx was nothing but peaches and sunshine you would write us off as a bunch of backbiting wackos; instead, however, you've read the forum for months and made respectful, sympathetic posts. Something here is resonating with you.

I guess what I am saying is...it sounds like these people and their actions have hurt you more than you like to admit and I think you should take that hurt seriously. GCx loves to downplay these kinds of hurts by saying, "don't let the actions of a few ruin the whole." But in the long run (i.e. the 20 years I was in the movement), that 5% "bad stuff" turns into a really naaasty flavor that makes the rest of the kool-aid taste like crap.       

[insearchoftruthjc]

This is just to reply to your questions/ statements, G_Prince.

I don't know how to quote things so these are just replies and I think you'll see what I'm referring to.

This is my conclusion from questions that I have asked the pastors, heard from their messages and I have also been told this by other people who feel the same way as I do.


Maybe you speak from personal experience that these "few people" make up the core of the church. This is not the case here. I would say that the pastors and most of the team leaders and lifegroup leaders don't fall into this group. There are people who are "popular" because they share the gospel with a lot of people and are involved with a lot of people becoming Christians but they are not leaders. This is where I have seen these "few people."


You don't mean to and yet you do. I'm not going to argue with the years that you have on me. I have known about the criticisms against the movement for about as long as I've been attending the church and the reason I've stuck with the church is not because they are my only friends or because I think this church is the only way to reach the lost. The reason I choose to stay is because I don't think that the criticisms against the movement in general are prevalent in this church. Maybe your experience has been that most of the leaders engage in this behavior but mine is that it is not the leaders but more a few random (if you will allow me the usage of the word) people who do it. When I say a few, I do mean a few. I don't mean a minority, I mean a few.

I didn't join this site in search of a community to relate with. If you see from my first post, I just wanted to say that I didn't think that GC was bad based on my experience with this church. I do recognize that other people (yourself included) have not had good experiences with the churches that you were involved in and I'm not attempting to equate the church I attend with the churches that the rest of you used to attend.

I have not been personally hurt in any way by these peoples actions. But I have observed it. I admit that if these few become the majority, I would not like that but they are not the majority and unless they clone themselves, they are not going to be the majority.

[Linda]

I have not been personally hurt in any way by these peoples actions.

Just so you know, my husband and I had not been "hurt" by GC before we left. We left because it had not been made clear until 10 years into our experience that GC was a non-charismatic shepherding sect. (Look up shepherding movement to understand what I mean by it). We also did not understand that the GC association was a group with a negative history (never heard of the error statement til a year or so before we left) that was continuing to do the very things they had apologized for in 1991.

Any "hurts" we experienced came after we left. And by hurts, I mean shunning, letters of rebuke sent to us personally, one of which was mailed to our grown children who still attended ECC. Not good.

[wastedyearsthere]

I'm with Linda.  I did not leave because I was hurt.  I left because I became acutely aware of the wrong teaching and cultish aspects of the Church.  I left many "friends" that turned out were only interested in me in what I could do for the Church.  I was shunned like Linda once I left the Church.  GCx is very good at convincing people that they are the ONLY ones doing it right (evangelism) -- elitist attitude that still prevails.  The church I now attend is better than the GCx church in our town at evangelism!  Our church is growing by leaps and bounds and many are being saved.   

[Immortal_Raven]

I truly hope that your church is the exception to the general trend of GC.  I truly do.  Even so, you're walking a fine line here.  You say there are practices that used by a small group of the congregation that the pastors do not condone.  You've even heard numerous messages that reject these practices.  Yet have the pastors done anything directly?  Have they approached those individuals about these practices?  If they haven't, how can they be doing their job properly.  I've seen several instances in churches including GC where people who were repeatedly engaging in ungodly practices were called to account.  In some cases they repented and changed, in others not.  But in all cases, the offending individuals were caught in their sin and forced to make a choice.

This behavior does not sound like a typical GC church.  I've known GC pastors to come down hard, very hard on people engaged in questionable practices.  So if your pastors are doing nothing, is that any better than what all the GC churches are accused of?

For me it's the difference between putting walnuts or dog poop in a batch of brownies.  I don't like the walnuts, but I'll put up with them because I really like brownies.  So if the praise band is too loud for your taste or the pastor's speaking style doesn't suit you, it's fine because it's still your church.  The dog poop on the other hand is not only bad-tasting, it's harmful to your soul.  Condoning anti-Scriptural practices, Misinterpreting the Bible, those are harmful practices that no church is worth staying at for. 

-Immortal_Raven

[calgal]

To offer a counter thought:

I initially joined the GCx church I did because I thought the Christians emulated what I thought the first century Christians were like:  committed, focused, transparent, simple in their fellowship, sweet, zealous.   I had never found this in another church as other fellowships seemed 1/2 way there so to speak.

What I found, of course was that GCx tended to attract - or maybe more so develop - an environment of Christian legalism and extremism that was suffocating (dating rules, surrendering to leadership, gossiping, etc).

However, it is possible to find a GCx church which has a balance of more of the former than the later? I think InSearchofTruthJC has to make that decision for him/herself.  And what ever that decision is, it is not wrong. 

Do you think this person disappeared (i.e. removed their login name from this site) from this forum because they felt a bit overwhelmed by our responses?  I know we have all been injured in the past by GCx, but we must realize that these are OUR experiences from the past and not THEIR experiences from the present.  There decision is the right one and has to come from their prompting.



Again, my two cents....

[Linda]

Do you think this person disappeared (i.e. removed their login name from this site) from this forum because they felt a bit overwhelmed by our responses?  I know we have all been injured in the past by GCx, but we must realize that these are OUR experiences from the past and not THEIR experiences from the present.

Who left?

The problem I have with GC is NOT based on my experience there. It is based on what they teach.

I did not leave my church because I was "injured". I left because of false teaching.

And so even to give the controls over to God, that's hard, but the real kicker here is God is saying, "give the controls over to people that I work through, and these people are fallible, these people make mistakes, these people are weak at times. You-outta work through it anyway," that's what God says.

It is WRONG to give the controls of your life to men. It is wrong for men to ask others to give the controls of their life to them.

[calgal]

InSearchofTruthJC ... I tried to send a personal message ... no longer here.

I would recommend that we all read through this thread of posts and look it at from this persons point of view, that is all ...  could it be possible that they felt overwhelmed by us all?

...and from their point of view, they did not say the leaders were teaching anything wrong. Whether that is true or not, I'm not arguing.  We don't even know what GCx church they came from ... their problem was with fellow church goers from what I understand.  I'm just trying to relate to their experience.

[Linda]

At the risk of sounding "cold-hearted", it seems to me that what insearchoftruthjc did was a "drive by".

This person posted a, "No problem here, everything's great, nothing to worry about, my GC church is great" comment. (There have been many of these types of comments over the years).

The original comment also included a preemptive defensive attack which was, "I’m not going to lie, I’m nervous to identify my position here because I don’t know if I can handle all the stuff that I know is going to come my way."

It seems to me that if you are going to post on a forum that has the stated purpose of being a place where former members can discuss problems (Welcome to De-Commissioned, a forum for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, and the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology) that you shouldn't be surprised when former members point out problems. What happened wasn't a personal attack.

Insearchoftruthjc never did address the theological issues (ie false teaching) of GC, but rather approached everything from his/her experience. When theological problems were pointed out, isotjc chose to leave, rather than discuss.

As far as I know, people who think GC is just great have never been prevented from posting.

[calgal]

I think everything you said is valid and I agree. I'm just trying to add balance.

After all, aren't we trying to help those who are trying to get out?  Maybe the approach doesn't matter in the long run, but I can see how this person could have felt overwhelmed.  Maybe they will come back, I hope so ... and has some new things to think about.

[Linda]

After all, aren't we trying to help those who are trying to get out?

As far as I could discern from his/her comment he/she was not trying to get out. He/She made a point of saying he/she was very unlikely to leave his/her church and that no church is perfect (standard GC line used to avoid addressing whatever theological issue is presented to them).

As far as "approach" goes, I don't think anyone was unkind. I really wish I would have learned the truth about what GC believes early on in my involvement. It would have been a kindness to me.

[G_Prince]

I hope I didn't offend or scare insearchoftruthJC away, but their posts were nothing but the standard GCx rhetoric. Whether they knew it or not, insearchoftruchJC was just reciting the company line...and frankly that's nothing but a conversation killer.

I tried to go fishing for some actual opinions. Maybe it didn't work.

[lone gone]

Calgal,

I'll go on record by publically stating my opinion.

Bringing balance to this forum is difficult.   You tried and see what it got you.

I have tried, and in spite of the fact that I do not attend, do not support, do not defend,and do not endorse any Great Commission church, movement, or leader ( but instead have chosen to participate in exposing their thinking and practices) I have been called a supporter and defender of GC.

There are too many wounded people here..... people that cannot tolerate anything resembling balance as it only aggravates the hurt they feel. These wounded people cannot yet allow balance into their thinking.

Maybe in time you'll outgrow the need post much here. Over the past 6 months I certainly have.

[Linda]

Please define "bringing balance".

[BTDT]

InsearchoftruthJC -- I'll post here, hoping you're just reading anonymously now.  Please read my posts over the last few months, if you haven't already.  A few of us have been trying to point out that there are at least some, and possibly many, GCM (Great Commission Ministries) churches that are like yours, a good church that does not support the junque from the past.

I totally believe you, that the practices you described are isolated to a few individuals.  My guess is, they may have come from GCAC or been in the movement for a long time, and it's totally ingrained in them, like my Great Lakes accent is to me.  We had that problem at Valley Brook, after the "apology letter" was shared.  There were just some people that were so convinced they were right, or were so deeply invested in the "old ways", that they just couldn't change.

I'm really sorry if you have become overwhelmed by the responses here.  Everyone has their own opinions, experiences, and hurts of different kinds and depths, and will respond in different ways.  Please hang around long enough to get the whole range of responses (see calgal and lone gone above).

calgal and lone gone, right on.

[calgal]

Linda:

I just think that if someone is on this site, they are seeking some sort of truth.  I remember my own journey.  It took years and I was the biggest defender of GCx.   But, if I was to be honest with myself, there was a quite, still voice listening to the truth.

Two thoughts come to mind:
1.  When and if someone decides to leave has to be up to them.  Until that time, they need support in their journey.  ju

2.  I just think think that a less forceful approach might accomplish a better outcome.  Again, if I was to put myself in this person's shoes, I'd feel attacked.   Is this what we would want? Does this accomplish our goal?

As if I'm defending GCx, gosh no.  The consequenses of me joining that cult have had a tremendous damaging efffect on my life. The fact that the universal experiences - such as shared by InSearchofTruthJC - are prevalant today as they were 10, 20 years ago confirms to me that they are a fabric to this cult and can not be separated from it. That is why I am no longer associated with it and would advise anyone to get out. But that is a personal decision and we need to respect the person in the process. That is my point.  The individual is just as important in the journey as they principle of it ... otherwise aren't we just as blind in our fervor as GCx cult leaders?

[AgathaL'Orange]

I am reading and rereading the thread (due to my complete inability to handle conflict LOL!    and my need to find resolution) and I have to say, what did Linda say that was so horrible?

The "Agh!" maybe about two people getting counsel on getting together?    I feel Agh! about that too.  I'm not sure what she did that was so horrible or different from anyone else.

I hardly think the blame should be left on her shoulders form someone leaving the forum or staying with GC.  I mean we all have family members and friends still in GC... is that our fault?  Maybe in some cases it could be, but I don't think it's fair to pin that blame on someone else!

That's one of my big beefs with GC.  It isn't UP to US to save the world.  That pressure stunk then, and it stinks now to think it's up to me to get people out based on how I perform on this forum.

[Linda]

I'm not trying to be contentious, I sincerely would like to understand what you mean by "less forceful" approach.

I think we need to be respectful of everyone posting (pro and con). To disagree with someone is not disrespect. This is a battle of ideas. Some of us believe that certain (not all) teachings of GC are false and damaging. To warn people of danger and give specifics is kind.

To be honest, it is frustrating (and frankly a put down) to be constantly told that we "haven't healed" because we post too much or we believe things strongly. "Haven't healed from hurts" and "Pointing out false teaching" are two entirely different things.

My thought is, let's discuss ideas, theology, practices. Let's not critique the delivery of ideas which can be a form of ad hominem attack. You know, criticize the messenger and thereby discredit the message.

By the way, the "Aghhhh!" was in response to GC leaders counseling men to approach a woman to marry him or giving a woman permission to say no. If that isn't an "Aghhhh" (pronounced perhaps more like "Ack" by the man who shall remain nameless who was in the room with me and said that when I read that sentence), I don't know what is!

[EverAStudent]

To everyone who posted on this thread:

1) I am not certain that insearchoftruthjc deleted his account or even stopped using it (his/her profile shows it was last accessed today)
2) It is not up to any one of us to make decisions for anyone else or even to be responsible for the decisions others make (i.e. whether to stay at GC or to leave)--invidividuals are responsible only for themselves
3) The truth will always be offensive to those who do not believe the truth (they cheered when they killed Jesus for having told them the truth), we are not responsible for the behavior of those who disbelieve the truth, we are responsible for telling the truth for their benefit ("for their benefit" is the biblical meaning of "telling them the truth in love")

For the past 6 months the participants on this forum have exercised great civility and kindness.  No one calls names (anymore), and no one curses out others, and no one says, "Oh, you're going to Hell for your affinity to GCx."  On numerous other "Christian" forums, this is not the case.

Yes, by the nature of this forum we will be in disagreement and conflict with others.  Read the New Testament and you quickly realize that disagreement (with those who are abusive toward others like Diotrephes) and conflict (with those who disbelieve the truth) are part of the biblical burden we have taken on as Christians.  The question is not whether there will be disagreement, debate, conflict, and reproving, but how we conduct ourselves in doing so.

We must do all things (i.e. sharing the light, sharing the Word, exposing the abuses) in love, that is, for the benefit of others.  Winning a debate is rarely the goal.  "Winning" is defined as helping others to accept the truth for their own benefit.  It is not proper to beat ourselves up for having done so.  It is good to re-examine our motives and our techniques, we can always do better.  But when we have done the right thing (told the truth in love, warned others, tried to correct injustice) we must cease beating ourselves up and leave the ultimate results up to the Lord.