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Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[insearchoftruthjc]

Hi everybody!

I’ve been coming to this site for a while now and just reading what everybody had to say. I am so sorry for all the hurts that have been happening over the years. I’m not going to lie, I’m nervous to identify my position here because I don’t know if I can handle all the stuff that I know is going to come my way. I have been attending a GC church for just under 4 years now and I am very unlikely to leave my church. I am not uninformed about the history of the movement or its criticisms. I know my church isn’t perfect but I also know that I will never find a church that is perfect because we live in a fallen world. I have grown more in my relationship with God in the years that I have been here than I ever imagined I could and developed relationships with my brothers and sisters that are very dear to me. There are practices in the church that I may not approve of, but I recognize that they are just practices and not doctrine. I don’t really know what I’m doing here, except that I want to share that I don’t think that GC is all bad.

Have a good day!

[Linda]

Welcome.

I don't think GC is all bad either. In fact, I am on board with probably 95% of what GC teaches.

It's that 5% you have to watch out for.

[EverAStudent]

Greetings insearchoftruthjc, and welcome to the forum!

Since all of us who frequent this forum are individuals, no one of us can speak for all the others, however, I enjoy hearing from a diverse set of opinions.  So speak up, if you want.  Yes, there will be disagreements (isn't that what debate is all about -- see Acts 15) but they are usually civil, especially if we apply the Four Guidelines of Christian Communication.

In fact, I think you have already pointed out an area of difference in your post, "There are practices in the church that I may not approve of, but I recognize that they are just practices and not doctrine."  Most of us see the improper practices of GC as being based on improper doctrine.  Perhaps that can be a springboard to further discussions later.

Welcome to the forum!

[insearchoftruthjc]

Thanks for the welcome. 

[wastedyearsthere]

There are practices in the church that I may not approve of, but I recognize that they are just practices and not doctrine.

This is how I stayed with the church as long as I did.  That and the "friendships" I had in the Church.  Came to find out how conditional these friendships were.  Most stopped being my friend when I started attending another church.  See how they react if you openly question or criticize their "practices".

5% of bad doctrine?  I think it is much higher -- well I remember what a pastors wife told me -- a little poison poisons the whole batch (referring at the time to how we shouldn't listen to a well known Christian radio personality).   But have come to find out they have more than 5% bad doctrine -- including having to obey what the pastors tell you and what God's will is and a host of other things such as God's omniscience.   

[Linda]

What I was trying to say with my 5% guess is that not everything about GC and its teaching is harmful. I was trying to remember a line from "The Last Battle" that went something like, "A lie mixed with the truth makes for a stronger lie." Something like that.

[Huldah]

Hi, Insearchoftruthjc, and welcome to the forum.

I understand your attachment to GC, and I agree that there's good mixed in with the bad, as in any church. Since you choose to stay, I would only urge you to be careful of ever doing anything that aids or abets the spiritual abuse of innocent people. Perhaps this isn't so much a problem in your local GC church, but I wanted to mention it just in case. Even just standing by silently, when you know someone is being treated unjustly, is a help to the abuser because they will always take your silence for assent.

[MidnightRider]

I was trying to remember a line from "The Last Battle" that went something like, "A lie mixed with the truth makes for a stronger lie." Something like that.

It is easy to spot something that is 100% false. When there is some truth mixed in, it is harder.

[MidnightRider]

There are practices in the church that I may not approve of, but I recognize that they are just practices and not doctrine.

The more I think about this, the less I understand it. I was told repeatedly when I was in GCx that doctrine is not important. Doctrine is a waste of time, a distraction, something that causes arguments and division. What really matters is practice. We should get out there and do something - share the gospel with as many people as possible, go to GCx meetings, etc.

Now you are telling me that GCx's flaws are "just" practices. What did I miss?

[G_Prince]

"just practices."

Isn't practice the application of doctrine? And frankly I'm more concerned with what a church DOES than what it believes. If a church practices child abuse (and they do) that is much more disturbing than some abstract doctrine about discipline. The whole "just practices" line (as if these silly little practices don't mean much) is ridiculous.   

[calgal]

Hello InSearchofTruthJC:

As you can see, we are all fired up!  We have been where you are, that is all.

As for the 5% issue, it all depends on what the 5% is ... and I agree that what is practiced is of most importance.  Jesus was about action and he cared about how people were treated ...

I would encourage you to read forum threads, to read the materials on this website which will reveal consistent flaws within the GC churches and specifically the leadership. I understand the attraction to this community - I was in a group for 11 years, started questioning leadership (my husband at the time was part of leadership, so that was tough) and ended up leaving with three kids under five.  Not easy.  So, I've seen the side of the 'church' when you question it ... it is not pretty.  It is VERY pretty when you conform, however.

If, on the other hand, you can approach leadership with your questions and concerns about the 5% you speak of ... and raise these issues for the sake and health of the other christians in the fellowship ... and IF they take your input with humility and from where it comes, then perhaps it could work.  If not, then I would raise serious questions if this is the right fellowship for you.  There must be a spirit in which you can use the Bible as your measuring stick and freely come to God with your questions and concerns ... and to share these thoughts with your fellow church goers and pastors ...

Just my two cents.  Keep coming back and let us know how you are doing ... and be patient with yourself, deciding to leave can take time to consider.

[insearchoftruthjc]

calgal, thanks for the gentle answer. I have been rather nervous to say anything here because I've been a little scared by the responses from other people.

I didn't really say anything about the 5%. I mentioned practices that I don't agree with.

Here are some of the practices that I don't agree with so you'll know where I'm coming from:
~ treating people like projects and not caring about much beyond them coming to know the Lord
~ being legalistic about guy-girl relationships (not riding in a car alone with a member of the opposite sex, not being friends with members of the opposite sex, etc)
~ if you tell the wrong person something personal, they feel like they need to share the information with someone else

Maybe when I said practices, I didn't clarify what I meant. I just mean the way things are done by some people. It's not a church-wide happening; some people do it but it's not something that is upheld by the church. If any of these were to be brought up with leadership, they would definitely disagree with it.

I would like to clarify that I have never heard it mentioned in this church that doctrine didn't matter.

[Linda]

I want to share that I don’t think that GC is all bad.

I don't think GC is all bad either. In fact, I am on board with probably 95% of what GC teaches.It's that 5% you have to watch out for.

I'm the person who introduced the 5% figure into this discussion. The point was to say that I agreed with insearchoftruthjc--that GC wasn't all bad. It wasn't to say that I had done an exhaustive analysis of all the doctrines of GC and was on board with literally 95% of them!

Just looking at the Statement of Faith on the web site, I would have to say I am on board with most of it. The only thing I disagree with would be under the heading of The Church, I disagree with what it means to "assemble together in local churches" because I understand that GC has a nuanced definition of that phrase.

As far as the comment "I know my church isn’t perfect but I also know that I will never find a church that is perfect because we live in a fallen world" goes, I wonder what you mean by this?

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

Jesus is in the business of perfecting the church. I've heard GC pastors respond to "criticism" by using that phrase. Wouldn't a wise pastor ask himself the question, "Is there any truth to what this person is saying?" "Is God trying to show us we need to make some changes to 'perfect' the church?"

There are practices in the church that I may not approve of, but I recognize that they are just practices and not doctrine.

I agree with this depending upon what you mean by practices. Here's what I think of practices vs. doctrine.

Practices=the color of the carpet, buying a building or not buying a building, the choice of music style, serving muffins instead of donuts after the service...

Doctrine=having someone other than Jesus be your Lord (shepherding), viewing your local assembly and national association as being a separate "bride" by saying things like "Switching churches is the same as telling your mom and dad that you want to go and live with your friend Bobby's family because they serve steak every night and we only have macaroni" (this statement implies that there is more than one bride which is a theological problem). Commitment to GC for life is a theological issue--it's a misunderstanding of what being a Christian means. When you become a Christian you automatically become part of the Bride--the Church.

One Bride, One Lord...GC teachings imply otherwise. That's what my problem with GC is.

That said, I think some GC people are really nice and am happy they are my friends. I stay in touch in other ways, but knowing what I know, I just can't go to their church.

[boboso]

Hello isotj,

I'm sorry to hear you are having very similar experiences to what we had at GCx. It sounds like we went through the same emotions/thoughts you've mentioned here already and many of us can empathize with your struggle. I remember getting to the point where these strange practices and heavy handed "leadership" statements got to be too much to ignore. I would encourage you to seek the Lord and to open your mind up to all possibilities. Don't be afraid to judge what you see based on your relationship with God and your knowledge of the Bible.

My basic synopsis is this: the GCx church we attended had nothing to do with love. Yes, as antithetical to the Bible as it sounds, the "church" we attended was really a means of building the "leader"'s franchise in the GCx model. The "leadership" was more interested in bringing people's time and money into "their church" than to truly love them. Over and over again, it was all about building "their local church" and submission to their "leadership". Truly disturbing.

As soon as you start asking questions, sadly, you will quickly understand which relationships at GCx were based on God's love and which were based on other conditions. Likely, once you leave, you will ultimately lose a number of relationships. It was really tough on us to see how many relationships we lost. The truth is that these relationships never really existed.

Here are some thoughts that helped us through:

1. As Margaret Thatcher says, "Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't". The "leadership" we had spent so much time convincing "their church" to submit, it sounded like they were convincing themselves. If anyone is truly spiritual, it should be obvious to see God's love working itself out through their faith and works.  

2. The "leadership" is not evil, just really misguided. Do not demonize them, but judge their acts. Remember, a lot of these "leaders" were hand-picked based on their submission to the GCx model. Some of them know no other way and are afraid to look otherwise.

3. You have access to the same Holy Spirit and to God as the "leadership" does. Really, with all your heart, pray and seek God about all of this. He will give you strength to overcome -- He is the One who set you free!

4. Christianity is way bigger than GC. I actually had a "leader" try to convince me that the GC model was the "best" way to do church and fellowship. I asked, "what happened before GC existed?" Answer: dead silence followed by a "you need to submit".  Wrong answer.

We all hope for God's best in your life. Please keep us updated --B.

[wastedyearsthere]

I have found more to be wrong with GCx.  There view of God's Will is wrong.  Their view of Pastor's leadership is unbiblical.  Their teaching on raising children is dangerous and bordering on child abuse (IMO).   Also the viewpoint of modern day Apostles (Jim  is one and is Denise Clark?) is heresy.   And there are faulty understanding of the Word on many subjects. 

Staying because of friends?  Having good friends?  Leave or criticize the church and you will find out how many of these people are real friends.    Would you be with a church with wrong doctrine (such as the Mormons) because of good friendships?

GCx views people as numbers and projects.   Once they deem someone not worthy of their time they move on. 

One leader once questioned a friend on a friendship and was telling her to limit the time she spent with that person -- Wasn't this amount of time enough to maintain the relationship?  Why would you go above the amount that was deemed acceptable by the leader. 

I believe GCx is cult like in many areas and I now warn people of this.

[Immortal_Raven]

I need some clarification on one point.  You said that if any of these were brought before the leaders, they would disagree.  Would the leaders disagree with the practices themselves, or would they disagree that these are church-wide, enforced practices?

You made three bullet points, and I'll give you my take on them.
-Treating some people like projects.  This is very heavily found throughout GC churches.  And it's true, if they decide you aren't worth the time to train, it's very hard to get anything from the leaders.  You may still attend church, but you're on the backburner for any attention from the leaders.  They have new projects. 

-The legalism between men and women.  Hopefully your church is different, but GC is very legalistic on male and female relationships.  It actually blew my mind because I wasn't even thinking about it until they brought it up.  THen I started to think about it and concluded that they believe people are extremely weak-willed and have no self-control.  Honestly, if you can't survive a 15-20 minute carride with a member of the opposite sex, how do they think you'll ever become a leader? 
And my personal views clash with theirs anyway.  I'm a guy, I'm married.  I have several female friends.  We're just friends.  I know it.  They know it.  My wife knows it.  But it's great to have a female sounding board if you're a guy and vice-versa.  If I'm struggling to understand my wife, I talk to a friend, get the female point of view.  Having female friends helps my marriage.

-Telling the wrong person something personal.  This is no better than high school gossip.  You'll see it in almost every social setting.  The difference is that in the church, you except things to be treated confidentially and delicately.  But in the GC world, if you tell someone a piece of information that makes them think you're being led astray, it's their duty, obligation, and compulsion to tell someone, most likely a pastor or your small group leader.

As far as the practices vs doctrine, I don't have a clear answer, no clear cut line.  I will however say that to be a good church, you have to practice what you preach.  In all three of these situations, ask yourself a couple questions:

-Do they handle all of these situations with a cut and dry rule, or is it a case by case basis?

-Do any of these situations come up in sermons or messages?  If they do, it's more of a doctrine than a practice.

-If a person is in these situations, do they consider and use feedback from those individuals.  If they don't, it's doctrine.

My personal definition, practice is physical.  I wake up, I eat breakfast.  They use a praise band instead of an organ.  The pastor uses a wireless mike. 
Doctrine is more mental.  People "betraying" your confidential thoughts.  Telling you not to be friends with the opposite sex.  Treating people like projects instead of human beings with emotions.

My two cents.

-Immortal_Raven

[Mr. Toad]

Boboso wrote:

"Yes, as antithetical to the Bible as it sounds, the "church" we attended was really a means of building the "leader"'s franchise in the GCx model."

Rick Whitney appears to support what you wrote based on the below devotional sent out today:

How Much Do You Want It? - Monday February 08, 2010

And I searched for a man among them who should build up the wall and stand in the gap before Me for the land…but I found no one. Ezekiel 22:30

Leadership is not a matter of gift or calling or personality or natural ability. Leadership is not a gift, not at its root. At its source, leadership is first and always a matter of charac-ter. And because it is a question of character, this kind of Biblical character can be trained. We can see growth and change in our character, or God wouldn’t ask us to grow and change.

In the book Dedication and Leadership, author Douglas Hyde (a former Communist leader) tells the story of a young man named Jim who was hoping to become a Communist leader. He desperately wanted it. Hyde relates how Jim “was almost pathetically anxious to be turned into a leader.” Yet as Hyde looked at Jim, he thought that he had never seen anyone who looked less the part: “He was just about the most unprepossessing man I had ever seen. Jim was very short, very fat, with a flabby white face, a cast to one eye, and to make matters worse, a most distressing stutter.” All he had was desire.

In the early months of Jim’s training, Douglas Hyde sug-gested that he begin to tutor a few others in Marxist ideology. Jim exclaimed, “W-w-what, m-m-me?!” Yet at the end of his life, Jim became a recognized leader in the Communist Party, a national leader in the Trade Unions, and grew to national stature across Great Britain when England was strongly influenced by the Communist Party.

Never forget that leaders are made, not born. And they are made by developing character.

 

[AgathaL'Orange]

-Treating some people like projects.  This is very heavily found throughout GC churches.  And it's true, if they decide you aren't worth the time to train, it's very hard to get anything from the leaders.  You may still attend church, but you're on the backburner for any attention from the leaders.  They have new projects. 

I saw this so much.  It was even spoken of specifically as a practice.  I heard this, "I was getting to be friends with 'Susie Jones' but when I saw that she wasn't really wanting to be going deeper, I quite investing in her life based on my husband's recommendation." 

Now this "Susie Jones" was a godly woman, beginning her marriage, pursuing adoption of a child, completely wanting to follow Christ.  But because she wasn't doing it the GC way (whatever that was at the moment), she was literally thought of as not worthy of being a friend.  I'm not suprised that she moved away and never went back to a GC church.  I was astounded at the insensitivity of dropping a friend (or someone who THOUGHT she was her friend) because she just wasn't going deeper and was a waste of time.  That is not a friendship and is very hurtful.  Not okay in the body of Christ.  Especially because this "Susie" wasn't doing anything wrong at all!!  I mean beyond being a normal human!

[EverAStudent]

In the book Dedication and Leadership, author Douglas Hyde (a former Communist leader) tells the story of a young man named Jim who was hoping to become a Communist leader. He desperately wanted it. Hyde relates how Jim “was almost pathetically anxious to be turned into a leader.” Yet as Hyde looked at Jim, he thought that he had never seen anyone who looked less the part: “He was just about the most unprepossessing man I had ever seen. Jim was very short, very fat, with a flabby white face, a cast to one eye, and to make matters worse, a most distressing stutter.” All he had was desire.

In the early months of Jim’s training, Douglas Hyde sug-gested that he begin to tutor a few others in Marxist ideology. Jim exclaimed, “W-w-what, m-m-me?!” Yet at the end of his life, Jim became a recognized leader in the Communist Party, a national leader in the Trade Unions, and grew to national stature across Great Britain when England was strongly influenced by the Communist Party.

I have read this quote from other Christians who have cited it.  I would not give a plug nickle for the quote or for the teachings of those who use the quote.

If you want to train a humanistic solialistic leader, then yes, such a leader can be trained and requires no particular spiritual giftedness.  Socialists/communists must merely recite the party line and do only what the party says is good for it.  There are no higher morals that must be sought and applied, and no Holy Spirit to seek or by Whom to be guided into the meaning of applicable Scripture.  

A communist leader is a parrot of the party-line.  A Christian is called upon to make value judgments, to seek the Kingdom of Christ, to study and apply the Word of God, to teach the Word of God accurately.  Moreover, a Christian is called upon to do all this while considering the spiritual well-being of those around him, and to do all in such a way as to lift them up, improve them, and nurse the wounded and doubting back to health.

Thank God we are not training communist leaders in the church!  To be a Christian leader requires giftedness and the Holy Spirit.

[insearchoftruthjc]

Like I said, the stuff that I see is done by individuals and not condoned by the pastors. I have heard numerous messages that reject these practices. To answer Immortal Raven's question, the pastors would disagree with the practices themselves. The pastors and leaders encourage us to love and serve people whether or not they are "fruitful projects" and there have been numerous examples of people getting saved because other people have been faithful with them. The pastors encourage us to join with churches of other denominations to further the gospel and build unity. They acknowledge that this church is just one that God can use to spread the gospel and build His kingdom and that other churches are being used as well. The pastors encourage us to seek the will of God on our own. They are willing to offer counsel when it is sought, but they don't ostracize you if you don't follow their counsel. Submission is not pushed on you. Young people in the church date with the intention of getting married (a.k.a. courtship) but it is people who like each other and are good friends. It is uncommon for people who aren't mutually interested in each other to start courting. I know numerous ladies who have turned down a proposal from a man that they weren't interested in, with counsel from the pastors (who may have counseled the same man to approach the lady). Dating is not out of the norm. People in relationships prior to attending the church are not forced to break-up with their significant other whether or not they are dating someone who is saved. Some do when they try to live more pure lives and the other person isn't interested in that. There are some really deep friendships between guys and girls that are not discouraged. Friendships are encouraged because a better picture of a brother and sister in christ are ones who know and trust each other as opposed to those who stay as far away from each other as possible.

And yet, if you look closely enough there are a few people that practice the things that I mentioned I disagreed with. There seems to be a general characteristic about the people who practice the things that I mentioned. They were all saved in this church and have generally left very sinful lives and as a result are over-zealous. They take things to the extremes. They tend to become very legalistic in their lives and try to force it in other peoples lives. These are the people who view people as projects and don't really form relationships with people. They force their perceived authority on other people. They take anything you confide in them and take it to other people without any regard for the confidentiality of the information because they aren't mature enough to handle the information themselves. These are people who are more concerned with getting the gospel out (which is not a bad thing) than they are about doing things in a way that is glorifying to God (which is a bad thing).

I guess one thing that is worth mentioning is that none of the above behaviors have affected me or my walk with the Lord negatively. If anything their examples have been like a what-not-to-do guide in my own life.