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Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[jedrc]

I have a family member very involved in summitview - am I wrong to be worried about the his children?

[AgathaL'Orange]

Hmmm... how to answer.  

My answer is yes and no.  There are MUCH worse groups they could be a part of.  And at least they have a cause they believe in and can live for.  So that's good.  And some people really like authoritarian groups.  Some people just feel more comfortable in these types of groups.  

Are the children in any immediate danger?  NO.  I really don't think so.  I do know that harsh discipline is encouraged throughout the movement, and I have heard of several instances that I would actually consider to be child abuse... but that's just my opinion.

The great majority of people in this movement treat their children very kindly and lovingly.

At the same time, being involved with this movement can mean being less involved with your family.  So that's dangerous.  And will the kids grow up to find their own way, or will they follow the way of GC... college close by home where they can "build" the local college group, then staff then becoming an elder in GC?  Who knows.

I know that I feel a great sadness for my friends who have children who are still in GC.  In some ways it's easier to raise kids in the GC environment, because you are consistently enforced on your parenting path.  But in other ways it's really hard because your kids may not respond the way you'd hoped.  You know... kids are not robots, and they may smart off or be rebellious or go through hard times, or not sit like angels in church or use bad language, or even have difficulty refraining from premarital sex and heavy partying.  And when that happens, the humiliation is pretty intense for the parents.

I am sorry if this is confusing, but it's a nebulous topic that can't be answered easily in my opinion...

Group think and legalism can feel safer and appear less dangerous at first glance, but the long term effects can be far reaching.  That said, parents really are the boss and it would be worse to try to influence the kids away from the parent's beliefs.  I believe that would be wrong.

Just be the sounding board, the listening ear, and perhaps provide the parents with a few "links" that may point them towards another church eventually!

[jedrc]

thanks a lot - the rest of us are feeling very alienated and inferior - which would be insulting if it weren't so funny.  The older folks in our family are having the hardest time with this since it is not at all how we were raised, or are raising our own children.  My daughter was told she would be going to a very dark place, alone, since her beliefs differed from another child's.  We don't live close by, so it's not often an issue, but I just see so much behavior (not from the kids, the grownups) that is UN-Christian - intolerance especially and belittlement, that it gives me pause.  Naturally, the group is a big pink elephant in the room, with everyone walking on eggshells so as to not inadvertently insult someone who is in this church, that the tension is palpable, and the visits end up pretty bad.  But we know criticism will drive them away, and so we have to resort to embracing their ways and beliefs and doing things only their way - which goes against how we live our lives.  So while they are better than we are, and saved, and we're going to a dark place down the road, they do cash the checks we give them....just a bit of venting, thank you.

[J]

I have a family member very involved in summitview - am I wrong to be worried about the his children?

What Agatha said - it could be worse, but yes, there is reason to worry. I know a lot of people who have experienced serious issues with Summitview and those leading it. Other churches in the area are quite aware of Summitview's "issues." It's not a normal, healthy church.

Should you stay awake at night worrying about it? If you're not directly involve in the church, probably not. Long term exposure to that kind of church culture does have an effect, though. And children are so innocent and vulnerable. If you ever get a chance to sit down and talk to the parents about the history of the movement their church is a part of, even if it offends them, I would probably risk doing it. At least then if they choose to stay they know what they are involving themselves in.

[AgathaL'Orange]

One thing to remember with your family is that they may be under some pressure from the church.  Maybe they feel intense pressure that their children will "turn out right." The may feel under obligation to give a lot of money to the church to the detriment of the family.  

So don't take it personally.  In some ways, I felt like the way I behaved while in GC wasn't the real me.  It was an obsessive-compulsive, busy, worried, driven me.  I wasted a lot of time thinking our church was better than other churches.  I wasted a lot of time feeling inferior in my commitment to the church.  And I spent a lot of time being a lot harsher with my kids than I really wanted to be.

So don't take it too personally!  Plus, maybe they really do care about you and your spiritual growth.  That's actually a really sweet sentiment even if it comes off as holier than thou or whatever.  That's how they know how to love you!

Sheesh, I don't even know you, and now I sound like Dear Abby!

Sorry... you just sounded a wee bit distressed.

[maranatha]

One tip that was helpful that was mentioned sometime here was this:

If you were concerned about a particular church, have a person who just left(or whoever)  glance at the 1991 Weakness paper and see if any of it sounds familiar.

[jedrc]

thanks all - he's made it clear that talking about this is out of the question (which totally raises red flags for me), so the best I can do is educate myself.  If he chooses to shut us out, and in a sense he's begun to, at least I'll know what I'm dealing with. His parents are heartbroken - but I've learned a lot just skimming thru here, and a lot of questions were answered - or bizarre stuff all of a sudden made sense.  I guess my biggest question is how does a group like this rein in educated people?  No question that he has always been what some might consider a social outsider, mostly just quiet, but not odd in any way - but he's remarkably highly educated and intelligent, or at least he used to be.   How does this become a family for someone who has always had a loving family?  what does it give people?

[AgathaL'Orange]

You know it's actually really common for intelligent people to be pulled in by aberrant groups.  Some cult experts say that just being an intelligent person is sort of a susceptibility factor in whether or not someone is at risk for joining a cult or unhealthy religious group.

I think that GC draws people who have studied the Bible all their lives and who feel like "knowledge" hasn't really gotten them anywhere.  They admire people who have a "simple" faith and follow "practical" principles.  GC tends to take these kinds of people then, and take away their natural love of learning and study and knowledge and forms it around their own belief system.  

They discourage seminary (or at least don't encourage or require it) for those who will become pastors.  They commonly talk about the "foolishness" of man, and the meaningless quest for religious knowledge and emphasize knowing God (a great goal in the context of the greater body of Christian practices).  

GC people aren't dumb.  There are many highly educated people that belong to the movement.  Many with Ph.Ds or Master's degrees,  who have chosen to be with a group of people that emphasize "heart" intelligence... perhaps something people like that feel may be missing.  Also, there is from my experience and extremely high percentage of people in math, science, computers, and engineering... has anyone else noticed that?  Then there are your sort of "dynamic" types that GC LOVES... the artists, the musicians, the graphics designers, etc.  These people give the movement the emergent, seeker sensitive "street cred."

Seriously, the people themselves are great... but there is a sort of hyperculture that exists.  Where you get saved, and boom within a year your leading groups, speaking, etc.  There is no desire or emphasis, literally almost none, to place GC within the great history of Christianity, nor to join with the greater body of Christianity around the world.

[TerryD]

Agatha rightly points out a curiosity about the make-up of groups like GCx. It reminded me of something I read in "Cult-Proofing Your Kids" (1993 Zondervan) by Dr. Paul Martin—who as many will remember was motivated to begin helping people coming out of cults and high-control religious groups by his own experience in Great Commission. GCx, in my view, falls in the latter category, not a cult but an authoritarian sect, with some highly cultic elements in its history and apparently in some remaining corners today.

In the preface to his book he reflects on his own experience...

"Commitment and dedication were so emphasized in my upbringing that I had absolutely no defenses when challenged by the Great Commission International to be  'totally committed to God.' No one ever told me that there might be potential dangers where faith commitment is concerned. No one ever warned me of the subtleties of influence factors, and the tremendously powerful techniques used in thought reform."

And then on his professional observations...

"It has been truly sad and horrifying to see the caliber of people coming to Wellspring (the retreat and counseling center he began post-GCx). Here I see some of the best, brightest, and most attractive youth of our nation. Some were valedictorians of their high schools, most were in the upper ten percent of their graduating class, and many were students at prestigious colleges and universities when they responded to the call of a particular cultic group. They were lured by the challenge of dedication, spirituality, and morality. Did no one warn them? Did anyone try to prepare them? In their time, Jesus, Paul, Peter and John all warned about false prophets, false teachers, those who would seek to deceive the very elect. But we are not being similarly warned today."

[jedrc]

well, some strange things have been happening, in terms of housing, not relocating for better work/pay, and we're more than devastated - we're frightened for this man and his (will it never stop growing - how can they afford so many children) family.  We don't want to alienate him, but to be perfectly hoest, we don't like him too  much these days - he's changed so fundamentally and his rigidity and rules are stifling.  I appreciate all of the insight.

[boboso]

It sounds like (sadly) that this fellow may be in so deep that he may be brainwashed. Is he trying to "impress" the "leadership" to one day be a part of "leadership"? Is he an ambitious person to begin with?

I am curious to find out what is motivating the behaviour you are describing. Most of the folks I saw who were "sold-out" to GC were often looking to start their own (how absurd!) "franchise" churches -- more motivated by their own stature in the corporation than motivated by genuine love for Christ.

I hope he comes around -- stories like this are painful to hear.

[Daisy]

The pressure he is feeling to remain with his church is amazing, and the threat to his friendships (and supposedly relationship with God) are valid.  I was in college, and only wanted to become a nurse, but had only got into programs out of state.  (I had prayed about the profession for a whole summer and the school for quite some time after that.)  After announcing my plan to leave the state for one of these programs my GC friends (my only friends at that point because being a good member of GC is so time consuming) stopped calling me.  It was forecasted that I would turn my back on God, as the pastor my for age group gave me multiple examples.

This incident helped me to see how much more my "friends" were dedicated to the church than to me.  It made leaving easier.

Try keep in regular contact with him, so that he knows that their are people who care about him outside of and beyond the church (they may try to convince him otherwise).  Remember what was said above; I became mean and very much like a bully to my own family when I was involved.  He will act very differently, but he will still hear you, even if he doesn't want to.