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Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[desiringtruth6]

Greetings to all readers.

I would like to know more about the church that I am attending (Walnut Creek Community Church, Des Moines) and also the campus ministry (Drake Campus Fellowship) that is affiliated with it.

I would appreciate any feedback from people with personal experience in this church.

Send me a private message, if that would be easier.

Thank you.

[Rebekah]

I didn't go there, but I've heard a lot of bad things about the campus fellowship and Walnut Creek. Even though the Drake group looks cool, it sounds like there's a lot of authoritarianism and that basically everything bad about GC goes on there. I'm sorry I don't have specifics, but it's just rumblings I've heard 2nd hand.

What have you experienced? Is there something in particular you're worried about?

[desiringtruth6]

Hi Rebekah,

Thanks for checking in. I have actually received some private messages from a few people who have had experience with the church and/or campus fellowship. I don’t have any concerns per se, but I did want to know what other peoples experience had been.

[Rebekah]

Oh good! I'm glad your post wasn't ignored by people who might actually know something.

By the way, I had a dream last night that Dan Rude (I know him but didn't go to that church) was trying to get my husband and me back into the church. I remember thinking how nice he was and that I wished there weren't so many problems with the church so we could join. But the thing about the dream that sticks out to me is that he was wearing these really cool boots. Weird, huh? 

[Ruth]

Hi. I hope this isn't too late. It's been a few months since this post but I wanted to share my experiences and observations at Walnut Creek.

I've been attending Walnut Creek for a few years. I got involved with Campus Fellowship at Drake and eventually with Walnut Creek itself. It's pretty much a given that once you're a part of CF, you will be a part of Walnut Creek. There are a few people (a very small percentage) that are only involved with CF and do not attend Walnut Creek regularly.

Some things that I've observed. (These are entirely my observations in no particular order of importance.)

People are not given time to grow before they are thrust into positions of leadership. This makes for spiritually immature leaders. Leaders of the college ministry are often people that have only been Christians for a couple of years or so. I'm not saying that it's impossible for young Christians to lead but I just don't think it's the best, especially when the people that they are leading are young people that are at a crucial stage of development. I also find that these young leaders are not adequately equipped to lead people that have been Christians for a lot longer than a couple of years and often times, these people find it hard to grow, and they either leave or make themselves need less.

People are encouraged to keep busy so that they will not be idle, and thus tempted to sin. That is why there are so many different things that people can be a part of. If you ask anyone in leadership why there are so many things that people can go to, you are told that nothing is compulsory and people can choose what they want to go to. And yet, there is an unspoken pressure to go to as much stuff as you can. And if you don't, then your loyalty and commitment is questioned. A leader (he was out of college for maybe a year or two) once gave a message at ALIVE (the weekly campus service) and one of his points was "A disciplined Christian is regularly exhausted; a lazy Christian stops when they have given their all." People feel like they have to push themselves to the point of exhaustion before they have done enough and people that don't are not doing their part.

People are encouraged to surround themselves with other people from the church. Choose classes together, live together, hang out together, eat together. The only time it is alright to do things with outsiders is when you're outreaching to them. And if you don't want to spend time with other people from the church all the time that you're not outreaching, then you're not being united with your fellow believers. If you choose to live with people not from the church, you're basically going to leave the church. If you hang out with non-believers, you're probably sinning with them. If you are close to people from other churches, you're not loyal to the church. None of this is taught or preached but it is the underlying attitude of a lot of people, the unspoken opinion, the opinion that is shared between close friends. When people aren't spending all their time with other people from the church, these other people start acting like those people are not loyal to the church and eventually they leave because they feel like they're not a part anymore and that their belonging depends on the amount of time they spend doing things in the church and for the church.

There is a pressure to not date. And like most of the other pressures, it is an unspoken pressure. People are told that they are free to date but as soon as they start dating, people start questioning the wisdom of it. I know that dating has garnered quite a bad reputation due to it's association with immorality. But I think that Christians can date and not be immoral but some people seem to think that they can't. Courtship is encouraged but it seems that people need to suffer excruciatingly with feelings for people from the opposite sex before they are given the green light to start a relationship with the person that they've been interested in for 3 (or 2 or 1) years. I understand if the green light comes from parents or good friends but in this case, the green light comes from the leaders. The basic courtship model seems to be a guy likes a girl for a couple of years or so and in this time he tells his mentor who then tells the leaders and when he finally approaches the girl it is revealed that she has liked him for a while too and they start courting. They're engaged about 3 months later and married 6 months later and expecting/delivered their first child before their first wedding anniversary. And it seems to me in the years that I've been there that the leaders are the ones that are getting married and the non-leaders are the ones that are not. This is just a generalization but it's a pretty legitimate one. The leaders are generally married a year or two out of college and the non-leaders make up the majority of single people. I speak of this in context of ratio and not numbers.

People have difficulty forming lasting friendships because they are always being moved. In the college ministry, close friends are not usually assigned to the same outreach groups. They are told that they can be more effective in different groups and as a result their friendships suffer. Each year, people are moved to different groups and they don't have time to deepen friendships from the year before. Best friends only get to see each other at big group gatherings or weekly meetings. People are made to feel like they should be using their time for outreach and not to be with their friends. Outreach is placed above friendship. This may not seem like a spiritual issue, but what it does is that it makes people feel isolated and lonely, which is a big issue for young people as it can lead to other things. But I have definitely seen a change in this lately. People are making more time to develop friendships and there are more lasting friendships being formed.

Bad teachings at regional conferences are not contradicted by leaders in the church. Sometimes when pastors from other churches come and speak at the church, their teachings are presented as that particular pastor's view and not the view of everybody but this is not done as frequently as it should be done. If somebody (pastor or not) feels like they want to not date or they want to stay at one church for the rest of their life, I think that's fine. But it's not fine when those things are taught as the right way or the best way to do life.

With all that said. it's not been all bad things. I have had a good experience at the church so far. My relationship with God has deepened and I have learned to rely on Him more. I have formed some really close friendships with people that accept me for who I am. The church has given me opportunities to serve people. My attitude towards evangelism has changed fr the better. I am thankful for the opportunity that I have to be a part of this church but at the same time, there is definite room for change.



 

[AgathaL'Orange]

Ruth, I wanted to thank you for your excellent post.  I find it to be accurate.  I find it important to note that while single, the extra hurdles people need to jump through (permission for dating, strong emphasis on semi communal or communal living, and certain lifestyle pressures) don't really go away when you are married.  The same kinds of things that kept you from deep relationships "outside the fold" with family or non WCCC friends, are exactly the kinds of things that continue to place the church above your blossoming family, extended family, and friends. 

Thankfully, I have been able to rekindle two relationships that were lost with women outside the church that I had a real connection with.  I'm so thankful for that.  In addition I have made an effort to rekindle relationships with family that had been put on the back burner.  I can never get those years back, but I believe the ending can still be good, you know?   

I'm a big huge fan of freedom.  Freedom is where you get authentic choices, heart commitments, and true heart change.  I love freedom!

[judah]

Ruth, you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I'm a big huge fan of freedom.  Freedom is where you get authentic choices, heart commitments, and true heart change.  I love freedom!

Agatha, I'm totally with you there. I'm a big fan of freedom too.

[Ruth]

Thanks, Agatha and Judah.

I just wanted to add one more observation that I think is rather important but I forgot to include earlier. This observation applies to the college ministry. Not sure if it's applicable to other ministries.

Most people that leave the church are viewed as disloyal and probably struggling in their walk with God. Basically there is practically no way that someone can leave the church and remain in good standing. When people leave, they are either not committed enough, not willing to live the Christian life, selfishly pursuing their ambitions, not following the will of God, etc. It doesn't matter if the person leaves and joins another church or if the person leaves to go home to their family or if they leave to go somewhere to follow their job and join a church there or if they leave because the church isn't the right fit for them. And it doesn't matter your real reasons for leaving, people will eventually come up with a story of how you had been struggling with something and how you had been sinning.  If you leave, you're considered a traitor and will have minimal interaction with a lot of the people in the church. Your best friends may act like you're deserting them personally and will try their hardest to win you back and help you see through the deception that you've been believing. Some people will be your friend and act like they're supportive but they will stop when you make it clear that you aren't coming back. Some people in the church may try to continue being your friend no matter where you attend church but it's a very low percentage. And the people that aren't deliberately avoiding you will eventually forgot about you because they don't see you anymore.

This sounds harsh but I've seen it happen repeatedly, especially in the college ministry. I don't know how it is with the older groups.

[judah]

Ruth, I agree with that too. People will pray for people that leave as if they are totally misguided. Most of the people that I've seen leave generally join another church and continue serving God there. There are only a couple of people, I'm talking about committed folk, that I have seen leave that left and chose to lead lives of sin.

[MarthaH]

Judah and Ruth, it is so helpful to be able to write things out. Once you do that, it often becomes very clear of what you are experiencing. Based on what you have both written, I would encourage you both to get out. You will most likely wrestle with the desire to change things, thinking that you have been placed there to help people see what is wrong and hoping that the people you love so much will have their eyes opened. As history shows, the system is not going to change. I think everyone knows this deep down, but it is difficult to admit.

Ruth, I felt like you wrote exactly what I experienced while I was there. If you were to take what you wrote and give it to a leader, it would be disregarded, even though it is factual and even though you could produce 100 witnesses to every thing you mentioned. As someone who has left, I would encourage you both to leave sooner than later. I made the mistake of taking the same exact concerns to leadership and having them play ignorant or deny everything I brought up. There will be an excuse for every objection you raised, including listening to "divisive bloggers". I'm being blunt in an effort to save you from heartache of dealing with the system that has existed for 40 years and is so deeply embedded in the DNA of this movement that you cannot change it, nor will it change, nor does it want to change.

If you would like to send a PM, I would be more than happy to help you find some people who have left the movement and can help you find a healthy fellowship (or for that matter several healthy fellowships) at both Drake and in Des Moines.

[judah]

Martha, I don't want to argue with you or make out that things aren't that bad. I'm not using the "there's no perfect church" argument here or refuting anything you said. But I just want to know if you think that it is impossible for anyone to live in freedom and still be a part of the church? I'm not going to speak for Ruth but these things are not things that I've suddenly become aware of. I've been attending Walnut Creek for a few years now and I've been aware of these things for a while now but they haven't come in the way of me embracing the freedom that I have in Christ. I do appreciate the care and concern that you have tried to express in your post. So thank you for the advice.

[MarthaH]

You are welcome, Judah. What I wrote is just simply advice. Thank you for seeing it as care and concern. That means a lot.

Someone started a thread a while back entitled, "Why would you go to a good GC church?" I guess since reading that, I have really struggled with why people continue to be a part of a movement, tithe to a movement and labor for a movement that damages so many people?

I'm not addressing this question to you specifically, Judah, and I'm sure if we met for coffee we would enjoy fellowship and spur one another on towards the Lord. I had many healthy relationships while I was in CF. However, there was an overall philosophy that was working against freedom in the church. I was able to attain it to some degree while I was in it, but everything I was doing was also pushing the machine forward (forgive my choice of wording). It even got to the point where I wanted to stay to help others find freedom, but eventually I realized that if I continued, others may stay in an overall damaging movement because of their friendship with me.

I felt like I recognized the same things Ruth mentioned, and yet I stayed for so long even after I saw them. What I saw trickled down from up top. That really bothers me! Leadership has been aware for 40 years of what has already been mentioned on this thread: shunning, treating people who leave as if they have sin in their life, the call for commitment, calling people disloyal, controlling peoples career path, losing friendships...

So why do people stay? I was at one of their events recently and I kept asking myself that! (Maybe I talked with you there, Judah  )
If it isn't the "there's no perfect church" excuse, then why?
I am curious, Judah, and I honestly mean no disrespect by this, but did you learn of freedom in Christ from the pulpit?

[judah]

Martha, I'm going to PM you because I don't want to start a conversation here.