Is anyone here an atheist?

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[danrudeisevil]

Howdy all,

       A slight amount of background before I ask my question, since in a vacuum it might sound like I am one of those new Dawkinistas that simply revel in making fun of creationists. A number of years ago, I was a relatively happy-go-lucky HS grad heading to Drake University. I was brought up with no religion (implicit atheist) and frankly didn't care or wish to care about it, I simply enjoyed life (although it left me rather naive to matters of religion).
       My conversion story is quite dense and drawn out, but lets just say that I had the unfortunate luck to have Dan Rude (Son of Tim Rude, GCM catholic hater extraordinaire) in my dorm hall. After the endorphins of conversion wore off, I resorted to researching why Christianity was true to keep up the 'momentum'. I initially only worked from sources like Kent Hovind and Josh McDowell. The first warning sign for me was when I realized I was fabricating apologetic information whenever it suited me in any given proselytizing opportunity. This is when the iron bars of the type of magical thinking and obtuse cognitive dissonance of theism broke off and I simply desired what was true, not what I desired to be true.
        The next two years, I researched and thought and tried to give God every possible chance to show himself to be true. Eventually, when each new question asked of god or the bible gave no logical answers, brought forth outright lies or necessitated even more questions..... xianity became so inane, deceitful, self-referential and flimsy, I simply gave up and walked out. GCM basically forced me to transition from an implicit to explicit atheist. After leaving (christianity) for purely rational considerations, and having a new outside perspective did I realize how much of a cult I blindly walked into.
        Since then, the more I think about it, the more of a hatred I have for them, GCM and christianity in general because of all of the lies, intellectual deceit (rape, if I'm completely honest), control .... and most importantly the wasted time, money and life potential people have wasted; Walnut Creek Community Church is tantamount to a genial version of INGSOC from 1984. Recently I saw one of their high level party members (the ones that get the first pick of all the attractive females), and all the memories of WC flooded back, which prompted me to look further into GCM and led me inexorably to this site. After reading a decent portion of the posts, I have noticed that everyone (I think) on here is a christian and left GCM on more or less doctrinal disagreements. Therefore I posit a few general questions:

1. For those of you that either were born into GCM or were christian before joining, did your doctrinal disagreements or any associated emotional spat with GCM ever cause you to question the validity of christianity? Or is faith immutable, but some believers (GCM) fall into deception?

2. For those that were not christians before you joined GCM, but converted by being "shared to' or via friendship evangelism but are still christian nonetheless..... what is your rationale for sticking with xianity despite the intellectual dishonesty that got you there in the first place?

3. Simply, are there any atheists on this site? Not to offend, but my experiences have caused me to thoroughly and intrinsically distrust men of the cloth. If I am going to get any emotional 'healing' as it were from visiting this site, I would prefer it from someone who's sworn duty isn't to convert me, though I am interested to see all of your responses to the first two questions.

[EverAStudent]

Greetings danrudeisevil.  Welcome to the forum.

First, I am sorry that you are in such a state of distress over GC and Christianity.  I know what emotional and spiritual turmoil feels like.  You have my sympathy and empathy.

Second, you shared your biases and background, so let me be up front with mine: I was born again in my teen years, joined GC while in college so as to be able to date a girl in the group (I did marry her), and left some 7 or 8 years later due to experiencing the problems and abuses you will find explored elsewhere on the forum.  My faith remains, but I will admit to having been misdirected in a number of areas of spirituality for a number of years due to the poor theology of the group.

Third, in general GC's salvation doctrine is reasonably orthodox with regard to Christianity in general.  Anselm, a theologian from A.D. 1100, would find little to object to with regard to their salvation doctrine.  It is not GC's salvation doctrine that most people find to be a problem, but their controlling behavior over those whom have joined the denomination.

Fourth, yes, there are atheists on this forum, homosexuals, agnostics, and others who have "left the faith" after having been in GC.
       

[EverAStudent]

To danrudeisevil,

My own teen son is an atheist, and he has declared his hatred and warfare against his parents and all Christians.  He states his attitude is aligned with both the first and second Humanist Manifestos in that regard.

Though you may not trust me in any meaningful way, given I am a dyed-in-the-wool believer in Christ, I would be happy to interact with you on any objections, complaints, or questions you may have with regard to Christianity in general.  We may not agree on certain assertions or evidences, but I will not intentionally resort to untruths to convince you or convert you.  Conviction and conversion are the labors of the Holy Spirit, not mine. 

I believe information is useful and friendly, but how that information is used or applied by a given individual may not be, but that is up to them and their chosen ethical system.  In general, I will share information with anyone on any spiritual topic.

Blessings in Christ.

[LucyB]

Fourth, yes, there are atheists on this forum, homosexuals, agnostics, and others who have "left the faith" after having been in GC.
       

First off, homosexuality is not a system of faith; it is a sexual orientation—couldn’t let that one go.
 
My experience with GC did not shake my faith at all—not even a little bit. Faith is a journey. We grow in faith, and conflicts help us to grow in love for God and others. Questions and doubts are a normal and healthy part of the journey. There are a lot of things I do not understand—like why a loving God would allow natural disasters, children to suffer, or his friends to act so stupid. Good luck to you as you heal, and as you emerge from this healing, may your faith rise within you.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Welcome DRIE!  I would like to say, I don't think Dan Rude is evil.  I think his story is truly one of tragedy.  I feel sorry for him and all leaders and followers in GC.  I came from a born again family and was "saved" at age 3 when I became very afraid of hell and how sinful I was.  I have always been extremely sensitive and for years after I was deathly afraid of hell and God.  I found it very difficult to sleep at night due to all of the anxiety.  I was a prime pick for GC in my 20's as I was very driven to do Christianity "right".

Long story short, today, technically, by conversion I'm an Orthodox Christian.  But I will be honest, I struggle quite a lot with theism in general and Christianity.  I think right now what I can say about my personal beliefs is that I *think* I'm a theist.  I believe in Christianity because I think it is the most hopeful of all religions, with its emphasis on forgiveness, love, and mercy.  I believe that God is love.  I am a Christian humanist.  And I hold these beliefs probably about 80% of the time.  I do not believe in a literal hell.

I find that as cheesy and as new agey as it sounds, the older I get, the more questions I have and the less answers I have.  I am firm that the most important tenet of Christianity is that God is love and not that man is a horrible, despicable sinner.  I believe the message of Christianity is grace, mercy, love, transformation, hope, forgiveness and not judgment.  I am done with judgment.  I am done with fear.  I am just done.

I find myself closer to Quakers and universalists (not UUs, just plain old universalist Christians) these days, as shocking as that may be to many here.  

The single most important thing I am trying to do right now is to simply be honest.  I'm not proud of where I am really, I'm just trying to be honest about where I am.  I don't want to fake.  I don't want to mislead.  I know I won't trick God.  So, I'm just being honest, and yeah, it's hard, very hard for me to believe in God at times.  Sometimes, I'm afraid I will go all the way to being agnostic or atheist but then after reading history I will find amazing stories of people who were led by Jesus to do amazing things for humankind and I am brought back.  So, while it may have been so called Christians who led me away from Jesus, it is also Christians who lead me back.  And sometimes not even Christians but those who found hope and direction in the messages of Jesus but who belonged to other faiths.  There is something different about Jesus.

So, I can't imagine life without a belief in God.  And I can't imagine a life without the hope in things around the world being made right.  To me Christianity is hope.  I hope that good will win.  I hope to align myself with good.  I hope that others will be aligned with good.  I hope that peace will reign.  I hope that sick will be healed.  I hope that murderers will be forgiven.  I hope that the hungry will be fed.  I hope that the earth will be well cared for.  I hope that wars will end.  I hope.  

  

[MidnightRider]

...
After the endorphins of conversion
wore off, I resorted to researching why Christianity was true to keep
up the 'momentum'. I initially only worked from sources like Kent
Hovind and Josh McDowell. The first warning sign for me was when I
realized I was fabricating apologetic information whenever it suited
me in any given proselytizing opportunity.

I know this is stating the obvious, but this is not a good idea. I recommend against it.

...
1. For those of you that either were born into GCM or were christian
before joining, did your doctrinal disagreements or any associated
emotional spat with GCM ever cause you to question the validity of
christianity? Or is faith immutable, but some believers (GCM) fall
into deception?
...

I was a Christian before joining GCx. I left after about 5 years mostly
for doctrinal reasons. As time went by, I began to see that there
were more reasons to leave than I had realized at the time. Maybe I
could say it like this: If I had it to do all over again, I would
have left sooner because of other reasons (controlling personal lives,
amateurish Bible teaching, low view of education, etc.), and not
waited around for doctrinal differences.

The experience did not cause me to question the validity of Christianity.

I did have somewhat of a crisis of faith while I was an undergraduate
in college, but that was before entering GCx. It has been a while and memory has
a way of smoothing things out sometimes, but I don't think I was ever
close to rejecting Christianity. But I wanted my faith to line up
with the rest of my thinking.

I read a lot at the time. I read some of Josh McDowell's books and saw him
perform^H^H^H^H^H^H^H lecture at my school, but to tell the truth I did not
get much out of it except for some interesting facts.

I found Francis Schaeffer's first 3 books helpful at the time - The God Who Is
There, Escape From Reason, and He Is There and He Is Not Silent.

Later I found Gordon Clark's _Religion, Reason, and Revelation_ in my college's
library. I thought his treatment of the problem of evil was better than
anything else I had seen. His rejection of the theistic proofs kept me from
going down a philosophical blind alley.

More to the point, along the way I read a couple of Os Guiness' early books. 
_In Two Minds_ was on the subject of doubt. _The Dust of Death_ was a
survey of other beliefs popular at the time. Christianity looks better
when you compare it to the alternatives. I was impressed by a statement
in one of those books (quoting from memory), "Belief in God is not the last
step in a 10-point proof. It is rather the presupposition that gives all
the other statements meaning."

As to where I am now, I have a pretty firm faith in God and Christ and the
Bible. I tend to be very skeptical about institutions, although the church I
am in is as institutional as anyone's. But to be fair, I am also skeptical of
skepticism and skeptics. 8-)

Different people have different reasons for doubting, so I don't know if
what I went through has anything to do with what you are asking about.

[Linda]

Not to offend, but my experiences have caused me to thoroughly and intrinsically distrust men of the cloth.

Welcome. While I am not an atheist, my experiences with GC and other high control sects have led me to concur somewhat with you on this point. I used to automatically believe anything said by a "pastor". Now, I use my knowledge of the Bible and my brain to filter various teachings. Sadly, there are a number of real reasons to distrust "men of the cloth". Some are imposters--wolves in sheeps clothing. Some are deceived themselves (I put GC elders in this category). Some have zeal, but lack knowledge (again, many younger elders in GC are in this category and the older ones, by their own admission, claim this defense in their apology statement).

While I haven't questioned my faith, my experience with GC has caused me to ponder the questions: What exactly is the church? and What makes a legitimate leader/elder/pastor? and What authority do religious leaders have over me? I am still a work in progress in this area.

What I have concluded is that I am not to give the controls of my life to any man. I have also concluded that just because a man stands up and says he is a "spiritual authority" it doesn't necessarily mean he is.

[Janet Easson Martin]

DRIE-

I read your post and I am glad you were brave enough to write so honestly.  I know of people who were greatly hurt by GCI, left and would probably consider themselves aetheists.  I know of people who were hurt by GCI, left and are probably not associated with any church of any kind.  I would not be surprised if many people who were controlled and used by GCI, left and fear any real committment to a church.  I, myself, after being deceived, distressed, depressed, and spiritually broken down by GCI, (GCx whatever), left and was completely shaken in my faith and life in general.  It was not a pretty picture!  However, my initial contact with them was through non-leaders who were part of leading me to Christ.  It was as some have said above a biblically correct offer of salvation: by faith alone in Christ's work on the cross for me.  It would have been healthier if I had left them immediately after my conversion because unnatural pressures and pushiness from them promptly followed.  So, I would say your predicament is not all that unusual.  

The great thing about Faith in Christ to save us is that because it was by grace nothing we do affects it .  Otherwise we would have something to boast in.   Even the faith to believe was a gift.  His gifts are irrevocable.  When we receive Christ by faith we gain the right to become children of God and are never separated again from Him (as we were before salvation).  Because we belong to Him, he tests our faith to make us strong and mature in Him.  Part of that testing includes doubts and uncertainties.  Our trust and obedience gives us more confidence in and of our initial saving faith.  But our trust and obedience (following our sincere conversion) provides us not insurance (to keep it), BUT assurance that we had it in the first place.  As was mentioned above Faith in Christ is most certainly a journey and grows a little at a time.  No one is ready in the beginning to do the things God has for planned for them in the future.  Most of the learning seems to be that we can do NOTHING of any real value in ourselves apart from moment-by-moment abiding in Him - the emptying of our own spiritual egos (for instance Moses).  Then as we have more dependence on Him or FAITH he can use us more (because there is no question about who gets the credit).  For some of us this is a very long process.  

Having said this, it is understandable to see why there is little maturity of FAITH in GCx.  The actions expected of new and young christians are unrealistic and unhealthy.  They are driven to perform and pretend SPIRITUAL BACKFLIPS and HIGH DIVES that God has not yet trained or prepared them for.  There are no such people as instant spiritual giants.  Moses was about as giant as they get and he was BY NO MEANS INSTANT!  The only way such people can perform in this SPIRITUAL CIRCUS is to FAAAAKE IIIIT!  And I am confident I wasn't the only one.  To me, that faking was so exhausting and depressing because I could not be FREE to be myself.

 

“A bruised reed He will not break  And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish”    _{Isaiah 42:3}

From an almost extinguished wick,

Janet

[G_Prince]

Yes I am an atheist. However, I still really enjoy attending church. Even though I've lost my faith, I've come to appreciate Christianity despite some of it's unsavory aspects. No ideological system is perfect, no group of people is perfect, but I'd rather be involved in a community than sling mud from a high tower. I think it is perfectly reasonable to be an atheist and be interested and involved in a religion. The mantra of "God-hating atheist" might work for some, but I don't think you have to be angry to be an atheist. Personally, I've never felt so much peace, or acceptance of others since I stopped believing that God exists. It's like the conversion experience I never had as a Christian. A great big sigh of relief and a rush of hope.

I still feel there is a lot of value in Christianity even though I think God is fictive. For many people, he is not, and their relationship with God is extremely positive and has helped them through many dark places. Just because I don't believe, doesn't invalidate what others have experienced. I don't know much, so who am I to declare that God is not real? I could easily be wrong.

If your only experience with Christianity is GCx, then I think you've witnessed pretty much everything negative about the faith...and very little of the positive. Perhaps you might want to check out a few other types of churches to give you a broader perspective. Not trying to convert you...again this is one atheist to another...but it might be good to see Christianity in different forms.

I don't think people on this site will try to convert you...although I can't speak for everyone. There is a wide range of beliefs here, ranging from emergent church folks to Greek Orthodox to atheists. This is not a homogeneous group and your opinion is welcome. Thanks for posting your story.     

[G_Prince]

Welcome DRIE!  I would like to say, I don't think Dan Rude is evil.  I think his story is truly one of tragedy.  I feel sorry for him and all leaders and followers in GC.  I came from a born again family and was "saved" at age 3 when I became very afraid of hell and how sinful I was.  I have always been extremely sensitive and for years after I was deathly afraid of hell and God.  I found it very difficult to sleep at night due to all of the anxiety.  I was a prime pick for GC in my 20's as I was very driven to do Christianity "right".

Long story short, today, technically, by conversion I'm an Orthodox Christian.  But I will be honest, I struggle quite a lot with theism in general and Christianity.  I think right now what I can say about my personal beliefs is that I *think* I'm a theist.  I believe in Christianity because I think it is the most hopeful of all religions, with its emphasis on forgiveness, love, and mercy.  I believe that God is love.  I am a Christian humanist.  And I hold these beliefs probably about 80% of the time.  I do not believe in a literal hell.

I find that as cheesy and as new agey as it sounds, the older I get, the more questions I have and the less answers I have.  I am firm that the most important tenet of Christianity is that God is love and not that man is a horrible, despicable sinner.  I believe the message of Christianity is grace, mercy, love, transformation, hope, forgiveness and not judgment.  I am done with judgment.  I am done with fear.  I am just done.

I find myself closer to Quakers and universalists (not UUs, just plain old universalist Christians) these days, as shocking as that may be to many here.  

The single most important thing I am trying to do right now is to simply be honest.  I'm not proud of where I am really, I'm just trying to be honest about where I am.  I don't want to fake.  I don't want to mislead.  I know I won't trick God.  So, I'm just being honest, and yeah, it's hard, very hard for me to believe in God at times.  Sometimes, I'm afraid I will go all the way to being agnostic or atheist but then after reading history I will find amazing stories of people who were led by Jesus to do amazing things for humankind and I am brought back.  So, while it may have been so called Christians who led me away from Jesus, it is also Christians who lead me back.  And sometimes not even Christians but those who found hope and direction in the messages of Jesus but who belonged to other faiths.  There is something different about Jesus.

So, I can't imagine life without a belief in God.  And I can't imagine a life without the hope in things around the world being made right.  To me Christianity is hope.  I hope that good will win.  I hope to align myself with good.  I hope that others will be aligned with good.  I hope that peace will reign.  I hope that sick will be healed.  I hope that murderers will be forgiven.  I hope that the hungry will be fed.  I hope that the earth will be well cared for.  I hope that wars will end.  I hope.  

Agatha, thanks for your post. You described eloquently what I've felt for a long time. Being honest with yourself is so important. I realized maybe a year ago that I've never really believed in God...ever...rather it was the FEAR that believed for me. Once the fear left, I could see clearly. It was like someone took the blinders off and I could see everything for what it was. Perhaps one day I will believe again...who knows, but I will never fear again. Thank God!

[lone gone]

while I am not an atheist, I am a healthy questioner/doubter.....  I question/doubt everything.  After having been misled repeatedly in my life by various people whom I trusted/admired, I am now rather wishy-washy.  Trying to take a stand for something only to have the rug pulled out from beneath my feet has left me in a precarious intellectual/emotional condition. 

While I am able to visualize a world without God, I am thoroughly disgusted with that scenario....  how pointless can human existence be without a "reason to live". Animals may exist and propagate to continue their species....  but humans can accomplish far more than that and yet are completely messed up.

I do not trust my feelings..... and so I cast myself on the mercies of God who has provided a redeemer for me.  That is all I have.... a Redeemer of my soul. Anyone who does not need or want a Redeemer will face that choice eventually.  Whether the grave is a very quiet place of non-existence or the beginning of a new part of existence will be revealed to all.

[trthskr]

I can only answer #1.  I was a Christian before WCCC, and remain so.  I can see how someone who hadn't experienced a relationship with Christ before joining GCM would have a hard time believing that it is real. 

I never questioned Christianity before WCCC, during my time at WCCC, or during my "quitting" of WCCC.  My issue with the church was with how people were treated, mainly those who were in the church but not "committed" enough, who were more shy and not one of the "high level party members" or "attractive females" (loooooove your titles, btw), or even Christians at Drake who chose to worship at a different church.  I think that in part, some of the "christianity" experienced in that group was more of an emotional experience than a true experience with God.  (I think I've seen it called "spiritual masturbation" at some point on this forum?)  I can understand how you would maybe not want a thing to do with Christianity at all after your experience, but would still encourage you to take a second look, at a non-gcm church, when you feel ready.  God is good, even if some misrepresented by some parties at times. 

I think that what you will find with any member of the forum here, is that even if they are not atheist, they are not going to just try to convert you.  I think that considering how much most of us have been hurt by that type of thinking, you will not experience that here.

[danrudeisevil]

Thanks for all the comments and considerations! You all seem to be extremely well intentioned and fair-minded individuals, and in my following response I must apologize if I generalize all of your individual comments since it is impractical for me to give each of you a specific response in turn. I will try my best not to cherry-pick or falsely generalize.
      It appears as though most of you fall under category number 1 of my 3 questions, and I do concede that if starting from the proposition that xianity is true, that one bad egg doesn't spoil the bunch. For example I 'believe' in education, and it would be wrong of me to assert that if a specific school or university is terrible at teaching, that education is not a worthwhile endeavor. There are two factors however that I take issue with: First is the assumption that the original proposition is assumed to be true, and second that there is only one spoiled egg. Indeed, if the assumed is true (say education) it doesn't matter how many eggs are spoiled. Sticking to my example, if all schools are terrible at education, then the entire system must be reformed since 'education' as an ideology is worthwhile and true. This is why I must assert the first premise of my disagreement as the most important.
      Before I continue I would like to rectify two specific concepts that in american culture are stigmatized and equivocated, and I do so because, wether or not you all believe this is the case, I felt a certain amount of pandering and disdain concerning these two concepts in most of your posts:
      First would be the definition of the word atheist. I will be brief. Theism=belief in god or gods; the prefix "a" meaning 'not' therefore atheism= not belief in god or gods. Simple as that, it does not necessitate any moral or ideological presuppositions per se, simply that you do not believe in god. I will amend that slightly in our current geopolitical context to say that all explicit atheists should consult reason and logic as the only processes for obtaining 'truth'. The stigma comes into play where atheists are portrayed as immoral, licentious, loud-mouthed haters of religion.
      The second revolves around the word 'hate'. I will explain myself by appealing to some rhetorical questions: Which of you would say, that if you were to see a Muslim brutally hacking away and dismembering a female's clitoris, it is his religious right (and which the fundamentalist muslim would consider morally praiseworthy and obligatory according to the Quran)? Or would you look with indifference at the systematic child rape rampant in the catholic church? It is utterly, inconceivably vile, and I feel no shame in saying that I 'hate' the aforementioned prospects. And those actions are only permissible because of the religious belief espoused by those individuals. I don't hate catholics, I hate catholicism because it is the psychological excuse for priests to commit such acts.
         As this is related to the stigma that atheists ridicule and hate religion, I point to scientology as an axiomatic example. All of us on this forum think that scientology is concurrently silly, absurd and dangerous (for a good chuckle, type 'space opera' into wikipedia; then to be morally outraged, look up what scientology really does fiscally and physically to its adherents). Is it wrong to get outraged and speak out against such atrocities? No, the only difference I've found between christianity in general and the above examples is the inculcation in our society that since it (xianity) is older and more widely accepted it deserves a pass from such scrutiny. In this I submit to you that I am not coming from what you (again I am specifically generalizing all of your comments, apologies for those who did not say this and I mean no offense) call an ideologically superior position, but rather that ANY reasoning creature should find atrocities like this to be 'hateful' and must be stopped. The only further thing to do is to ask why those specific atrocities occur and the answer I have found is specifically in religious thinking.
       I anticipate you flailing your arms up at the previous statement and shouting, "Stalin, Mao, Pott!". Yes those are atrocious, and yes they were 'secular' or 'atheist' regimes, but where they failed morally is the trenchant, totalitarian deification of either their leader or their government. I submit to you that currently, the most atheistic countries are democratic in nature (the government is a tool of the people, not the inverse) and also have the lowest crime rates in the world. I must apologize for this little rant, but I thoroughly think that the distinction between religious right and moral right is extremely important; that the nature of atheism and how I use the word 'hate' should not itself be derided by discrimination due to ignorance (ignorant in this specific etymologic regard, not insulting you as 'ignorant' full stop).

Whew! Now that that clarification is out of the way, let me explain why I think that leaving GCM excluded the possibility of remaining a christian, which, for the sake of brevity I will limit to very few examples. This is where the importance of the 'original assumption' I mentioned in the beginning starts to show itself. I posit that the GCM movement is actually a very good example of how christianity should behave. In order to be a 'true' christian, you must believe the bible to be inerrant. To admit that some part of the bible is metaphorical because it is historically or scientifically untrue (which most theologians do) is to admit that everything in the bible is metaphorical. (as an aside, I do think that parts of the bible are metaphorical due to the way they are written, like the poetic book song of solomon, genesis is written specifically as an historical account) Since the genesis myth is demonstrably false, that means that sin did not come into the world by means of one man, ergo Jesus could not have been the 'second Adam' since there was no first Adam; salvation is meaningless. Also to think that Hell doesn't exist, but believe in the God of love is intellectual hypocrisy of the worst kind. Punishment for sin IS so literally, implicitly and explicitly fundamental to christianity, that if you dismiss hell as unreal (the bible certainly proclaims it is) because you think a loving god wouldn't do that, you very simply aren't a christian; that is not who the christian god is. Modern liberal theologians have generally thrown out all the nasty or distasteful bits of the bible, reducing the xian god to a subset of complete unknowns. And since you cannot know the unknowable they are practically atheists.
       Now assuming that you do believe the bible is inerrant I still posit to you all that GCM is indeed doing the right thing. Forcing people to go 'sharing' is I believe the correct thing to do! If it is true that those who don't know christ are going to hell, every fibre of your being must be devoted to that charge logically following that if you don't, you are directly responsible for others eternal damnation. That weight of burden is so enormous that the end justifies ANY means, including mandatory 'sharing' missions.... or for that reason any other horrific negation of personal rights GCM is guilty of.
       All of you are right to say that GCM is wrong, but that moral standpoint actually originates outside of christianity. In fact, a large part of that is due to the acceptance of a hellenistic morality in the church several hundred years after christ when they realized that the morality of Jesus (abandon your wealth, you must hate your family, give no regard for the morrow etc. which makes sense if Jesus' return were imminent) is simply not sustainable in civilization. That is to say that deriding a religious belief specifically ordained by the same holy writ that you yourself believe in on moral grounds is tantamount to accepting a morality superseding that of your God.
      A personal aside with which I shall wrap up. The reason I picked "danrudeisevil" for my username is that I believed that (besides minor differences) everything GCM did was biblical and correct. Only once I left, did I see GCM and by extension (for some of the aforementioned reasons) christianity as an insidiously immoral totalitarian religion. The more I mused on this, the more I realized the detrimental effects of it. In the same way I hate muslims genital mutilation... I hate the effect xianity has on the human mind and behavior. Ergo Dan Rude, the spiritual dictator of my religious past-life, evil since he is the primary progenitor of the evils of xianity in my life. I also concede that I am to some extent grateful to him as well for illuminating these falsehoods, into which I doubt I'll ever fall into again. I also admit I made a mistake in saying "emotional healing" in my first post.... I need none. I fully understand GCMs impact for better or worse, I have moved on, I am content, yet though I am 'bitter' I realize that like... say any war it was tragic, people got hurt but it has also illuminated the path to truth and to what is important in my life. Also to hopefully prevent others from falling into the same malicious trap as I did. I came to this forum mostly because of curiosity, and also that since I left the church I have found very few people with a similar story to mine and hoped to find some here. I genuinely appreciate all of your inputs and willingness to help. This causes me to say that any appeal to regaining or restoring 'faith' will be utterly wasted: if your God does exist, he has not imparted on me the gift of faith. To you it is 'His' fault I don't believe, it would be hubristic to try and act against his will..... and seeing what evils faith has done to man, even if God gave me the gift of faith, I wouldn't want it.

Thank you all very much for your time!

[EverAStudent]

Hello DRIE.  I sense the pain you have with regard to your experiences is still quite tender and sensitive.  I am sorry for this.  Some pain diminishes with time, whereas some wounds need to be treated before the pain goes away.  Spiritual wounding often needs treatment from God.  I will be in prayer for you.

[danrudeisevil]

Perhaps I have not made myself clear, my leaving was nearly two years ago. Any (or rather if any) angst in parting has long since past, any anger I have culled has increased proportionate to thinking through its effects. I don't need/want any pity or prayer. It was not a 'spiritual wounding' and doesn't require God's treatment. It was intellectual violation and would then necessitate intellectual discuss to remedy, no appeal to emotion or faith need apply. I did not come here for remediation, but curiosity and inquiry and would appreciate the same reciprocation.

[MidnightRider]

Have any of you not-so-theistically-inclined individuals (or anyone else) read any of Frank Schaeffer's recent books, _Crazy for God_ and _Sex, Mom, and God_? I would be interested in hearing opinions if you have.

[Captain Bible]

Howdy all,

       A slight amount of background before I ask my question, since in a vacuum it might sound like I am one of those new Dawkinistas that simply revel in making fun of creationists. A number of years ago, I was a relatively happy-go-lucky HS grad heading to Drake University. I was brought up with no religion (implicit atheist) and frankly didn't care or wish to care about it, I simply enjoyed life (although it left me rather naive to matters of religion).
       My conversion story is quite dense and drawn out, but lets just say that I had the unfortunate luck to have Dan Rude (Son of Tim Rude, GCM catholic hater extraordinaire) in my dorm hall. After the endorphins of conversion wore off, I resorted to researching why Christianity was true to keep up the 'momentum'. I initially only worked from sources like Kent Hovind and Josh McDowell. The first warning sign for me was when I realized I was fabricating apologetic information whenever it suited me in any given proselytizing opportunity. This is when the iron bars of the type of magical thinking and obtuse cognitive dissonance of theism broke off and I simply desired what was true, not what I desired to be true.
        The next two years, I researched and thought and tried to give God every possible chance to show himself to be true. Eventually, when each new question asked of god or the bible gave no logical answers, brought forth outright lies or necessitated even more questions..... xianity became so inane, deceitful, self-referential and flimsy, I simply gave up and walked out. GCM basically forced me to transition from an implicit to explicit atheist. After leaving (christianity) for purely rational considerations, and having a new outside perspective did I realize how much of a cult I blindly walked into.
        Since then, the more I think about it, the more of a hatred I have for them, GCM and christianity in general because of all of the lies, intellectual deceit (rape, if I'm completely honest), control .... and most importantly the wasted time, money and life potential people have wasted; Walnut Creek Community Church is tantamount to a genial version of INGSOC from 1984. Recently I saw one of their high level party members (the ones that get the first pick of all the attractive females), and all the memories of WC flooded back, which prompted me to look further into GCM and led me inexorably to this site. After reading a decent portion of the posts, I have noticed that everyone (I think) on here is a christian and left GCM on more or less doctrinal disagreements. Therefore I posit a few general questions:

1. For those of you that either were born into GCM or were christian before joining, did your doctrinal disagreements or any associated emotional spat with GCM ever cause you to question the validity of christianity? Or is faith immutable, but some believers (GCM) fall into deception?

2. For those that were not christians before you joined GCM, but converted by being "shared to' or via friendship evangelism but are still christian nonetheless..... what is your rationale for sticking with xianity despite the intellectual dishonesty that got you there in the first place?

3. Simply, are there any atheists on this site? Not to offend, but my experiences have caused me to thoroughly and intrinsically distrust men of the cloth. If I am going to get any emotional 'healing' as it were from visiting this site, I would prefer it from someone who's sworn duty isn't to convert me, though I am interested to see all of your responses to the first two questions.

1: Yes. I am no longer a christian.  

But am I an atheist?

I don't go to church.... Do I believe in god?

I... I don't know.

what is god?

(Is there other intelligent life that could have been involved in our evolution....   sounds like god! )

I do love the beauty of this place. We live in a space and world full of wonders. Look out into the universe where we find new planets and see new things that blow our minds! Think about dark energy... My family can see their old time religion being replaced with our new shiny one. You and I would call it reality not religion, but they would call it: LIES OF SATIN! oh well, to each his own.

I think I might know where you are coming from, what it is like to live in a nation that is Obsessed with Christianity. (ever been to pizza ranch!   they just go crazy for Jesus... and fried chicken!)

 I don't practice religion but don't get me wrong, I do like to study it because it is so human, and I like humans. Even the ones who have strange traditions like female genital mutilation.

What am I? put any title you want on me, I don't care that much.

Lets think about this together, I live in a world where people believe that Jesus and his white horse are going to come thundering through the clouds to fill the earth with blood up to the horse's bridle. (think about that for a moment.) After Jesus is done trampling us, you and I will be tortured for millions of years, in fact for all time that there is, (whatever that means) in endless agony and suffering. These are the very same people who say "hi" to you in the grocery store. Granted, I think they know hell is a bad idea...  

They just keep it around so they won't have to see Hittler in heaven.


PS, don't get me started on young earth scientists, and speaking of Richard Dawkins... I would like to read this book: Why we believe in God(s)...
http://richarddawkins.net/videos/624760-why-we-believe-in-god-s-a-concise-guide-to-the-science-of-faith

[EverAStudent]

Hello Capn.  When you wrote, "I think [Christians] know hell is a bad idea...  " you spoke for a people group and an entire faith out of turn.

 

Many other atheists have told me they would rather spend their eternities in Hell (if it turns out there is such a thing) with other atheists than to have to endure Heaven with Christians. They find being around goody-two-shoes and holier-than-thou religious types to be offensive and suffocating. They simply are not comfortable having meaningful fellowship with born-again types of people.

In short, such atheistic people will literally be happier and more content enduring the pains and horrors of separation from God (Hell) than being continually and forever in His presence (Heaven). Living with a perfectly holy being, when one is not holy because of conscious choice, would be more intolerable and horrifying than any other alternative, no matter how unpleasant the final reality.

In fact, Hell seems like quite a good idea, though it saddens me to think anyone will go there and horrifies me to think anyone would want to go there.

[Captain Bible]

I  know I am bombastic and can be insensitive...

I agree with you, I don't want to go to hell. I don't believe in it in fact. If the God I once worshiped does exist and I stand before him at the judgment seat, I will chose hell, because I will have a morality higher than that god. No human crime could deserve a punishment so savage and ruthless as hell. I would rather be tortured forever than spend my time with a god who is not just.

[Linda]

I believe that God is the definition of love, mercy, grace, humility, holiness, and justice. I do believe in a literal hell.

I am most definitely not all knowing, loving, merciful, gracious, humble, holy, and just. Therefore, there is a lot I don't understand and therefore cannot explain.

One thing I noticed about GC (and many other churches) is that they turn the Gospel into "to do" lists. Sermons become ways to tell you how to have a better life or a more successful life. Or, they tell you what you should or shouldn't do. I rarely heard about God. Or, worse yet, when God was talked about, it was in light of the things that displease him.

While I do believe that there are things that truly displease God, I believe it is a ploy of Satan to get us to only think about the "sternness"  and judgment of God. What about his mercy? What about his love? What about his grace? How is that available to us?

A rule of thumb I now have is that if I leave a church and am thinking about the church (and how loyal I should be to it, or how I should serve it), or the pastor (and how I should be loyal to him or serve him), I need to find a different church or pastor. If I leave and am thinking about God and have a better picture of him and his holiness and his love, I will hang around and listen.