Is anyone here an atheist?

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Innerlight]

I agree with you, I don't want to go to hell. I don't believe in it in fact. If the God I once worshiped does exist and I stand before him at the judgment seat, I will chose hell, because I will have a morality higher than that god. No human crime could deserve a punishment so savage and ruthless as hell. I would rather be tortured forever than spend my time with a god who is not just.

Captain Bible:  I don't think you really believe that.  If you truly search for God, He will meet you.  I'm not talking about GCC or any denomination, but God, and his Messiah, Jesus Christ.  GCC, and your time there, is over and done, and the power of the cross will move you past it.  If you move to God, he will move to you.   

For me the scariest concept of Hell, would be a place where there is NO GOOD in anybody.  No remnant of good, all bad, all the time 24 hours a day.  We've all been around people who were scary evil....I would hate to be in a place surronded by that.  the image of "weeping and gnashing of teeth"....weeping, beacuse it's too late, and gnashing (grinding) their teeth at God in horrible hate-filled anger. 

in regards to your comment about a "god who is not just"  In theology, that is a basic concept of God...his righteousness and justice. 

God is just...that's why there is a hell....  However, in a beautiful plan, we are reconciled to him.  He made the first move...not us.   

[Captain Bible]

This thread has pulled me out to say things I don't usually like to say here. I keep a lot of these thoughts to myself. I don't mean to offend by my comments about Jesus and hell. I am just trying to explain why I left the faith.  I know my life as a christian was a life lived in fear, as I lost my fear I lost my faith. The two are one with me. Perhaps I never had faith at all?

Linda I know you of cherish your faith I am happy for it, I don't want to be disrespectful of that. My experience is more negative. I accepted Christ out of the fear of hell, not the love of god. My young life was watched with vigilance for sins to be punished. That aspect of the faith is what I know the best, what was emphasized the most.

I guess, I just don't believe the message any more. Many of the themes of the faith are timeless truths. That is why it has been around as long as it has, it can find relevance in any time, but frankly I just don't buy it anymore.

[EverAStudent]

Capn, anyone can say anthing they want to me anytime they want, so long as they do not expect me to always agree LOL

I prefer people to say what is on their true mind and in their genuine heart, rather than say what they want me to hear.  It is not my religion you are rejecting since I did not start it and I do not own it, so I cannot take offense at your not liking it.  I can and do feel bad that you will and do miss out on its benefits, but it is not me personally that you are rejecting (I hope) and so I do not take it personally.  That said, the God who did start the religion may take some offense........

All I ask is that people let me be as honest in return as I want them to be with me.  

Linda, good comment you posted.

[Linda]

Linda I know you of cherish your faith I am happy for it, I don't want to be disrespectful of that. My experience is more negative. I accepted Christ out of the fear of hell, not the love of god. My young life was watched with vigilance for sins to be punished. That aspect of the faith is what I know the best, what was emphasized the most.

For starters, I don't sense at all that you are being disrespectful. So, no need to worry about that. I do think you make an interesting point here. Those of us who do believe that sin exists, that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, and that the finished work of Jesus on the cross is the only way we can be right with God, find ourselves in the position of wanting to tell others. It's logical to start telling people about their need for Jesus by pointing out "sin" and moving on from there.

Where we move to is often the idea that a holy God must turn his back on sin, but Jesus, through his shed blood on the cross made the sacrifice that makes it possible for us to have the righteousness of Christ. Part of the story (the "negative" part), though, is that "traditional" Christians believe that those who reject God's son will spend eternity apart from him. In hell.

I sometimes wonder if in the attempt to make this clear, Christians dwell on the sin part. The negative part. The "Love God or you will go to Hell part". I wonder if Christians are afraid that if they focus on God's mercy, people will somehow misunderstand and think "anything goes". So, they focus on the sin/punishment/Hell part of the Gospel.

A couple years ago, I did a Beth Moore Bible Study on the Tabernacle. It was fascinating and a phrase that struck me is "the mercy seat". I think I will pull out my notes and re-read them, but if I remember correctly, the tablets containing God's law (the 10 Commandments) were in the ark. On the top of the ark, between the golden cherubim, was the mercy seat where God literally met. God literally placed himself between us and the law. Beautiful picture.

Of course, way more happened in the Holy of Holies, but I have lately been fascinated with the phrase "the mercy seat".

I think one of the problems with high control groups is the focus on behavior. Catching every sin, focusing on things like "blanket time", and always correcting puts an emphasis on behavior and doing things to please God. Even the GC idea of "recognizing" pastors, puts an emphasis on behavior. You don't get "recognized" unless you've done stuff that people can see! When we focus on what we are supposed to do, our focus shifts to us and away from God. I think Christians should be focused on Christ and what he did for us.

Hope I've made some sense.

[danrudeisevil]

I'm not insinuating a real pissing contest has broken out over the last few points, but has certainly moved away from my original post quite a bit, and I will shunt off some of my second post (largely ignored) into a separate thingy (I'm not a savvy bocger). But for Captain  Bible I would like to ask perhaps a question pertaining only to us, dealing with the 'gift of faith' in a rational sense. As you well know while I was in the church, if anybody left, it was said that they were never a christian to begin with. Now for the average person, this statement is arse gravy of the worst kind.... but I'm wondering if there is any truth in it? Did we actually believe? The short answer is yes, but if you will permit me to delve headlong into a more epistemological approach, I must say that I did in fact not ever believe.
       The original emotional assault that lead to my conversion was levied in a large part by my complete lack of knowledge of religion full stop. As a child, I remember an instance specifically asking my mother what palm sunday was, she gave the standard explanation and I could not make any sense of it. Christ, as a concept was so lacking in any logical coherence to me that it completely escaped the limits of my understanding........... until the orthodox view was presented by Rude, the emotional satisfaction in finally understanding it I think lead to my conversion. Reason never left, and most people in the church regarded me as wise, correct, generous (I also was also extremely good at evangelizing) etc but somehow cold. I never listened to the music (I hated it) and would make it a point to arrive late to avoid it. During the sermons I would write things down, analyze and summarily dismiss anything that wasn't 'kosher'. My belief I think was only fueled by my full acceptance of the non-facts of creationism (parading with the mask of reason), I don't think faith had anything to do with my belief, or if it did it was regarded as an addendum not an annex. So perhaps I was never a christian in the true sense, that is to say I never abandoned reason to blind faith. Your thoughts and experiences please.

[Linda]

For starters, I can't speak for others, but I didn't ignore your second post, I read it, but I guess I thought you were mostly explaining what you believe and not so much looking for a response. In the meantime, other people picked up on related topics and the discussion morphed. Most conversations do. One topic leads to another and there is a back and forth.

To tell you the truth, I'm really not sure what you are asking and I am a tad afraid to answer for fear I will be misunderstood or judged.

[danrudeisevil]

I'm afraid of some sort of nefarious fundamental dissonance in regards to the etiquettes of discussion. When I (in my second post) appealed to the fact that I am in no way focusing on the emotional healing (or whatever you want to call it) but rather the actual logic and evidences of why GCM and christianity is a pernicious belief system, I expect a certain level of respect for that... and not to be denigrated into the sub-category of 'angry-atheist'. If I am, or seem, up front or terse it is specifically to prevent any misinterpretations of what I am saying. The fact that most of the subsequent posts glom onto the very last thing I said in my second post is to say either that no one really pondered all of it; or the modus operandi of realizing the last thing I said (gift of faith) is something 'spiritual' or 'doctrinal' as some sort of appeal to any possible internal doubts of my own position is something I find to be rather egregious and insulting. I of course realize that conversations shift topic; I don't deny it which is why I have reposted elsewhere on the site. I am still appealing to the direction this current post is heading and eagerly await

[EverAStudent]

To DRIE,

As I said to my teen son, who took great offense at these same words: No, you were never regenerated in heart and mind into an adopted child of Christ or you would not be denying Him as God. 

Yes, like my son, I believe you think you converted to some level of religious fervor, but did not subject yourself to regeneration.  In my son's case he never really got excited about the routine elements of being a Christian (never really appreciated prayer or regular Bible study and always harbored a rebellious streak).  He liked some of his church friends and some of the church activities, particularly playing in the youth band, but the attitude of submission to God was never really evident.

So, understanding the phrase "to have faith" in the context of "being regenerated in heart, mind, and spirit as an adopted child of God and indwelt with the Holy Spirit of promise" it is evident that you have not yet grasped hold of the gift of faith.  All of this is only in so far as any finite human can know or understand the spirit of another--which is not much.  Still, if the assessment is correct, that is good news because there is still opportunity to be regenerated.  Since faith cannot be whipped up or manufactured, it must be accepted, you will recognize it when you feel convicted by the Holy Spirit to finally repent in a whole-life kind of way, turning all your future hopes of salvation over to Him. 

And like my atheist son who fumes into hot anger when he finds me praying for him, I will say the same to you, my prayers are with you, but not to make you feel good or guilty, but for your spiritual benefit nonetheless.  That's one of the perks of being a Christian...you can pray for anyone you want and no one can stop you!  LOL with you, and praying for you.

[Linda]

When I (in my second post) appealed to the fact that I am in no way focusing on the emotional healing (or whatever you want to call it) but rather the actual logic and evidences of why GCM and christianity is a pernicious belief system, I expect a certain level of respect for that... and not to be denigrated into the sub-category of 'angry-atheist'.

From what I have read, people did not belittle you and call you an angry atheist. I seem to remember people posting rather honestly about their current beliefs and questions. If someone disagrees, it doesn't mean that they are "denigrating" (defaming/attacking the character of) you. To clarify, GC teaches this about its critics when they call public disagreement with elders slander. I will shout it from the rooftops, "TO DISAGREE WITH SOMEONE IS NOT TO SLANDER OR HATE THEM!"

The first part of your post is interesting. I am a Christian. From what you write, you think I am illogical and are telling me my faith is not only illogical, but it is dangerous! You are allowed to have your opinion, but it doesn't exactly invite discussion when someone from the start tells you that your faith is illogical.

I post on this site, to warn people about the unorthodox teaching of GC churches. I am happy to tell people who genuinely care, why I believe what I believe, and I respect the beliefs of others. They are allowed to think I am wrong and I am allowed to think they are wrong and we can all care about each other in spite of our differences. I answered your original post in post #6. I am now going to bow out of this "off the topic of GC" discussion.

[danrudeisevil]

If someone disagrees, it doesn't mean that they are "denigrating" (defaming/attacking the character of) you.

I completely agree with this statement, but I point out something for which I have had personal experience (remember I was a Christian). What I have found here and everywhere in religious circles is this very point. As a christian, if someone were to come up to me and simply state that Jesus is not the son of god, since my identity is linked with that presupposition, to state its falsehood is ultimately and personally denigrating. I've felt that same feeling myself if someone said that Jesus wasn't god, and I completely sympathize with how you feel when your belief system is attacked.

However, since saying "Jesus Christ was resurrected" is intrinsically a factual-type statement, it must be verifiable. And since affirming its negative is by definition personally 'denigrating' and 'insulting' to all christians (of which I was one), does that curtail my personal right of free speech to say it is false?

Allow me to turn it around on you all with the very nature of the de-commissioned forum. If someone on this website were to rail against the moral injustices of, say GCMs view on dating, that is is false at best, harmful (dare I say evil) at worst of course is not a personal attack! But GCM-ers would find it so.... the essence of this specific thread (is that the right blogging term?) takes that example and expands it to all of christianity.

When you say "TO DISAGREE WITH SOMEONE IS NOT TO SLANDER OR HATE THEM!", I am in affirm that in every aspect. In fact did I not say that I don't hate catholics, but rather their religion? I disagree with you that christianity is a true and righteous faith, and openly say so, but since that belief system is so caught up in who you are as a person it is metaphysical impossibility for me to criticize christianity WITHOUT 'slandering' you. I don't expect but ask the same resignation for myself and my views.... which is I believe where this concept of 'angry-atheist' comes from.

[Linda]

Slander: A false and defamatory oral statement about a person.

[danrudeisevil]

I suppose then I have no need to prove my previous statement according to your latest comment as you have done so yourself.

Though in the spirit of lettered discussion I would ask you to enumerate why.

[Captain Bible]

But for Captain  Bible I would like to ask perhaps a question pertaining only to us, dealing with the 'gift of faith' in a rational sense. As you well know while I was in the church, if anybody left, it was said that they were never a christian to begin with. Now for the average person, this statement is arse gravy of the worst kind.... but I'm wondering if there is any truth in it? Did we actually believe? The short answer is yes, but if you will permit me to delve headlong into a more epistemological approach, I must say that I did in fact not ever believe.
      

 An older sibling left first in our family, that is when my parents doubted that he was saved. O, but he said the F@$%n prayer three times. yes, three times just to make sure.

They say you can't loose your salvation, but than they pull out the verse about a tree and its fruit. What about my fruit? I did so much work for their cult, never was noticed by anyone. I have no one but myself to blame.

I am just glad I didn't have to be at Walnut Creek! That church is supper F$#%ed up! not to say mine was much better.

Mostly I just said the things I had to say, go through the motions. I was all in later on at LT summer trip, I am just happy I never led anyone to the Lord. That is one less thing to have to regret. I spent hours in prayer for the lost, It was like I could repeat my fathers war story's in my time.

They probably doubt my salvation now, I know I believed in all of it even from a young age but once my brain fully developed, I was done. It wouldn't work for me after I had full range of reason. I tried to stay in the faith but I realized I had to get out or kill myself. In the end, I chose life and reason over death and faith.

The faith of those I know who are still in Gc serves them like a wall. Logic can't make it through that wall. I don't try with my family, I often hope that my parents will get out but I think it is just too late for that.

Honestly I feel like we are in to different worlds, I forget sometimes how different It is in their world when everything gets put through their GC christian filter.

When I left GC I didn't think I was leaving the faith, It just happened. I didn't know how to act when I left, I thought that I should go and get drunk, so I did. I thought that I would loose all morality when I left the faith, but to be honest I have never felt better. I don't sit around any more beating myself up for short comings. It is great! Yes, they think I was never saved... Think I was saved. They just can't make that fit through there wall.

I once heard a pastor give a warning to us. He said, "There once was a woman who gave her life to Christ, than she didn't fallow him. In fact she said she wanted nothing to do with the church or reaching the world for Christ, she just wanted the ticket to heaven. First god made her get in a car crash! Than after she didn't repent. He had her go into the poor house... than when she would not repent and live a life in line with the scripture he had her die of cancer!... so you see, giving your life to Christ is a dangerous thing to do, because if you dishonor gods name on earth, he might just kill you."

So if I get in a car crash and die of cancer you'll know what happened.

[Huldah]

I once heard a pastor give a warning to us. He said, "There once was a woman who gave her life to Christ, than she didn't fallow him. In fact she said she wanted nothing to do with the church or reaching the world for Christ, she just wanted the ticket to heaven. First god made her get in a car crash! Than after she didn't repent. He had her go into the poor house... than when she would not repent and live a life in line with the scripture he had her die of cancer!... so you see, giving your life to Christ is a dangerous thing to do, because if you dishonor gods name on earth, he might just kill you."

 
 

So, then... if those who profess Christ do try to live up to our faith, does this mean we'll never be in a car crash, endure poverty, or die of cancer?

[Linda]

I put the definition of slander up, not because I felt slandered, but because the word slander came up and I want people to understand what slander really means. GC has co-opted the word and redefined it. It is not slander to disagree publicly with someone. Slander involves false accusations meant to harm someone.

It does not slander me in the least when you criticize Christianity.

Excellent point, Huldah. Also, would they teach that if you were in a car crash or got cancer as a Christian you must have some hidden sin?

[EverAStudent]

Ughhhh....I hate bad theology!  (that comment applies to the story of the lost girl)

Were you or were you not regenerated?...that is a question only you and God actually know the answer to.  

Scripture states that only those faithful who "persevere to the end" are those who are saved.  

This idea is repeated by our Lord in the parable of the seed thrown onto four kinds of soil.  Only one kind of soil actually produced "fruit" (the "fruit of faith") which had any good result.  As any wheat farmer will tell you, they do not care any more for a baren plant that grows from a seed than for seeds that do not grow at all; the only outcome that has any value for them is a plant that produces wheat.  Only the wheat-producing soil in the parable was the one that got saved.  

What is "wheat" in real life?  A changed life, a life that has fellowship with Christ, a life that endures to the end.  Have you stopped enduring in the faith?  Then you were not one of the saved elect, at least, not yet.

[danrudeisevil]

Despite there being multiple streams of thought right now, I'll try and hit as many as I can. Let me say to Linda that I'm glad we have resolved the point of slander. Discussion means being open and free thinking, but somewhat paradoxically one must be thick skinned. I think in our politically correct world, things can be offensive, but if someone says "I'm offended by that" is to resign the offensive thing to mere whining. I've tried to avoid doing that as much as possible.

All things being equal, despite the wide berth of scripture for and against the nature of fruit and perseverance, I think its a bit of a cop out to say .........that even though he 'bore fruit' and served christ faithfully, since he's no longer a christian that means he never was. What of some of the painful conversations I had with those I had converted, telling them that I was by definition the antichrist, who still persist in their faith? I have to say that even though I apologized profusely to them for lying and misdirecting, they refused to speak to me.

For Captain Bible, I had the same types of thoughts about drinking, sex etc after I left. If I'm honest I have indulged in them since, because they are not morally wrong (except in excess). But to probably both our credit, the 'switch' probably produced little outward change in our behavior, much to the chagrin of those who are exponents (Walnut Creek hmmm); that since atheists have no morals they are automatically sex-driven, drug-laced, faggoty, rapine sadomasochists. The first thing I did after I deconverted, was I bought a machete, went to the nearest school and started hacking away!... because why the hell not?

NO! Those atheists that espouse reason above all must have an indelible sense of morality based off of reason.... same as ethicists such as Kant, Hume, Paine etc created their moral theories without divine mandate. And in many cases it aligns with christian morality. But in cases of say genocide it doesn't. If a bible believing christian said that genocide was wrong full stop, he would be negating Mosaic law where racial cleansing is expressly mandated by god.

[EverAStudent]

I think its a bit of a cop out to say .........that even though he 'bore fruit' and served christ faithfully, since he's no longer a christian that means he never was.

Here is an impasse point.  Atheists do not inherit the authority to change or redefine terms of the Christian religion.  Jesus defined the terms and parameters of salvation, and to quote Him is not a cop-out.  He does in fact state that endurance / perseverence in the faith is the final word on who was and was not a Christian.  Of those who do not endure to the end He says, "I never knew you."

"You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
(Matthew 10:22)

"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
(Matthew 24:13)

"You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
(Mark 13:13)

Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
(1 Timothy 4:16)

Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
(James 1:12)
If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
(Revelation 13:10)

Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
(Revelation 14:12-13)

Of particular interest to me is that it is not just the doing of some fruit that earns one the title of "saved" or "Christian" but rather it is the ability to endure and persevere in the the good works of faith to the end who demonstrate they really were children of the Lord.

"But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.
(Luke 8:15)

who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
(Romans 2:6-7)

Is it a cop out to quote Jesus?  I do not think so.  That too is part of enduring and persevering.

[danrudeisevil]

I do admit your scripture is impressive, and as I'm not settled on this issue I ask you two questions.
1. What is the difference between being a christian and believing in christ?
2. Is it possible for people who never knew christ to bear his fruit?

I bring to light Acts 19:13-16   

13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

Now scripturally speaking, if I convert someone, I've effectively driven out their 'demon' of unbelief, the cancer of unbelief that afflicted them IN THE NAME OF JESUS. So since I've never ran out of proselytizing naked and bleeding, did I convert them in the spirit? Or rather, fruit that is obviously from god, conversion, was God feigning that as some sort of joke?

Also, the context of many of your scriptures is awry, remember that I studied the bible diligently too. I will take just one example, and not the best one for the purposes you think I'm going to use, being the luke passage of the seed and the sower. Jesus says that there those who hear and reject (the path), receive with joy and are tempted and fall away(rock), hear and worry about the world(thorns) and noble retainers (soil). Assuming this is true, I'm obviously not in the first or last category, but I don't neatly fall under the middle ones because they can describe ANYONE. Either you become a christian with or without joy, and you can stop being a christian by either not resisting temptation (what man can?)  or worrying about the world (what man can't?). If I did fall under the rock category, which, fall away from what?, the church? Jesus?
   But the most insidious thing about this passage, and one of many that forced me to stay well past my time in the church, is that no-one wants to be anything BUT the good soil. Then you are trapped in this sort of 'have you stopped beating your wife?' line of questions: I think Im the good soil, but I worry about riches, am I not saved? Ok I wont worry about riches, I'm safe. But I'm not good, am I not a christian? No I'm a christian who's getting better. But I'm being tested right now, will I fall away?
The line of questioning and self doubt is unending, and I didn't want to leave christianity because that would mean that I'm not good or noble. THAT is the definition of control, it comes from our gentle galilean carpenter, not GCM.
   Sorry for the slight digression, you can ignore that if you wish, but I'd like your opinion on those two questions at the top of my post.

[EverAStudent]

1. What is the difference between being a christian and believing in christ?

"But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."(James 2:18-19)

Coupled with the previous passages in the previous post and remembering that Jesus said one must be born again / regenerated, I would answer expediently but not exhaustively as: anyone can believe in Christ as an historical man, a good rabbi, and an excellent example of human holiness without being saved (that is, without being a Christian).  Only one who repents, is regenerated, and endures in the faithful worship of Jesus (as demonstrated by enduring good works) is the one who is saved.

2. Is it possible for people who never knew christ to bear his fruit?

No, not in the sense of "fruit" being the fruits of the Holy Spirit (faith, hope, love, patience, kindness, goodness, fellowship with Christ) because those who never knew Christ never had genuine faith in Christ as God and Savior, though they may have known of Him.  Non-Christians can certainly do impressive deeds: "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' " (Matthew 7:18-23)

Clearly flashy and miraculous deeds are not "good fruit" in the spiritual sense.  1 Corinthians 12 defines good works as those that benefit the Kingdom of God and benefit the church without glorifying the deed doer.

Good deeds do not earn salvation, but they must result from salvation.  Externally impressive deeds (like evangelism or prophecy)  do not necessarily mean that the inner heart is one that spiritually worships Jesus as God.  Some may evangelize with impure and selfish motives (as Paul pointed out), and that kind of evangelism may result in people turning to Christ, but does nothing of benefit for the impure evangelist since God wants the fruit of holiness above all else.