Leaving and exhausted

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[sesmith6]

I don't understand where my campus fellowship is coming from.  I was a member of the church before I was a student here and I loved everyone from my Bible study and the girls I had dinner with.  Now i'm stuck with people that are several years younger than me and giving horrible advice to these impressionable girls who are away from their familes for the first time.  One of the girls receiving counsel from fellowship is my roommate.  She has several neurological/mental illness diagnoses dating back to her young childhood.  When I say young, I mean like 3 and 4.  Recently she had been acting irrationally, saying she wanted to die, etc.  I spoke with her family and decided to talk to campus fellowship about her problem.  Since she had quit speaking to me, she believed I hated her, i thought the "friends" she was making in campus fellowship would help her.  Instead of help, they advised her that the medications she was taking were unnecessary and the doctors she was seeing weren't helping her.  They convinced her that all she needed to do was pray more and grow stronger in God to be healed.

I told them everything about her illnesses to try to make them understand that this was a serious medical issue.  I thought they would encourage her to seek care from a physician since she had praised them so much about how they had helped her before.  When I found out their plan for her I contacted a member of the church outside our fellowship and received a brainwashed response.  Something along the lines of she would have to agree with what the fellowship reccomends because they are appointed by the church to help and are qualified to do so. BS!  They told a girl with a history of violence, manifestations and suicidal behavior to quit taking medication.  And I have to share an apartment with her.  As a member of the church I felt disrespected.  Another member of our church was in trouble, something I viewed as an emergency, and instead of helping her in a logical way, they put her and myself in danger.  How can I be a part of that anymore?

Another roommate told me that it was standard practice at the fellowship.  She had also been encouraged to stop her antidepressants and therapy and to seek a stronger relationship with God, the ultimate therapist.  Where did her counsel come from?  One of the pastor's sons.  So as I finish up the school year, hiding in my room from these nutcases, I'm trying to remind myself that all Christians aren't like this.  I'm trying not to struggle so much in my faith but I feel let down and completely lost.
I'm scared for these girls and I'm scared for myself.

[wastedyearsthere]

Mind if I ask?  Was this from Walnut Creek Church in Des Moines?  I noticed you are in Ankeny, IA.  I'm very familiar with this church and the leadership there and good thing you are getting OUT.  I had a friend who had severe depression in that church and the elders counselled him not to seek therapy but to get more involved in leading (he was a deacon).  He was suicidal and eventually needed to be hospitalized.  They shunned him and didn't believe it was anything but sin in his life -- he was told he was selfish.  He found another church and now is doing wonderfully but with no help from that church who he was a part of for over a decade.  

But then again all GCx churches I have known have dealt terriibly with people with problems and especially people with a mental illness.  

I knew of a man who was terminally ill and dying and they told him he had a bad countenance and should be sharing his faith as he lay dying in a denver hospital.  I find this dispicable.  

I know of a great church in your area if you are from Ankeny.  Cornerstone church in Ames.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Ses... You are absolutely right when you say all Christians are not like that.  That is very irresponsible and downright arrogant for them to think that someone who has a lifelong history of mental illness just needs to pray more.  This is wrong and could be construed as medical advice.   I would seriously consider notifying that girls parents immediately.

I don't know what her illness is, but there are illnesses that can literally turn into life threatening situations within a matter of weeks when medications are ended.  I know of one person who lost her child because she was bipolar and refused to take her medication!

OH!  That makes me so MAD!  I just could scream.  That poor girl... and those wretched, holier than thou, arrogant "advisors!"  They really are in the wrong on this one!

[boboso]

I'm very sorry to hear this, but not at all surprised. I witnessed "advice" like this from the same GCx mire we were in and it was just as offensive. I just loved how the self-appointed college-age kool-aid drinkers would pass out advice to people much older with far more spiritual experience -- and then have the gall to tell them to submit to their "eldership"!

Do yourself a favor and leave that mess asap -- if you can influence your friend to at least consult her doctor about getting off the meds, I hope she'll see reason. Obviously, you cannot force her to go either way.

[theresearchpersona]

Something to remember: one's faith must be in Jeust Christ, and that of the Bible...not in the claimants to Him. Okay? : )

I know how you feel about "hiding out" too. : (  I wasn't hiding "because they were nutcases", but for need of scripture, and not being able to participate in stuff that was, frankly, sinful for being based upon and full of error.

Anyway, a lot of Churches today fall into a ton of error and weirdness for selectively citing scripture, too much men's opinions, too many books that they didn't check against scripture (and sadly which are sometimes so obvious one wonders how they could fall for them). There's a guy here, "EverAStudent", who gave me a bit o' encouragement: search till you find a Biblical Search". I would find one, if you could, that has men able to teach, that's either healthy, or acknowledges that it's not and knows why and is working to fix it (a healthy sign!), that accepts criticism with more than a nod...and which has people able and willing to sit-down and explain to you if/when you're wrong on something, which doesn't explain things emotionally, but rather handling scripture properly, and which does not appeal to its traditions (at least, alone: traditions can be good...but only if subject to God's Word, so that men's word isn't stealing your attention from God's).

I also knew of people came off anti-depressants; don't know if I would have encouraged that, although I don't believe they were made to, or that anyone where I was actually taught (at least anymore) that that's what you were supposed to do. That can go good or bad, but sad for that gal.

You know, when you're really down...it really gives you an opportunity to examine yourself, and also to get to know Christ: hit the Book, I would say, with care. : )

[AgathaL'Orange]

I agree the mild cases of depression often don't require medication... I'm a classic example... therapy, exercise, and Vitamin D worked miracles... I'm a new woman!  Come to find out I didn't have enough sun in my life!

BUT severe mental illness is a completely different story.  Honestly... if my son or daughter with severe mental illness was told by a pastor in a counseling situation to go off the meds and pray... if anything happened I would sue them or bring them up on criminal charges for telliing my child to go against medical advice.  I have no idea if that is permissable by the court system, but I sure would try it.  

I would also try to get a restraining order.  I'm thinking schizophrenia, bipolar, BPD... you name it... there are a lot of ailments out there that unschooled "pastors" probably don't even KNOW about... let alone have the ability to treat, advise or judge.

This is the area of Great Commission that to me is one of the most egregious.  This is SO wrong!  

How can we help this poor girl??

[puff of purple smoke]

Instead of help, they advised her that the medications she was taking were unnecessary and the doctors she was seeing weren't helping her. They convinced her that all she needed to do was pray more and grow stronger in God to be healed.

This is the advice they will give anyone with depression issues, eating disorder issues, etc. There were numerous situations like this in various GCx churches that I was aware of. Depression and mental disorder simply does not fit into the GCx belief system.

[EverAStudent]

Dear Sesmith6,

Though it may seem like "outing" your friend, I would strongly recommend phoning her parents and giving them the entire story.  Especially about the church.  They are in the best position of legitimate authority to help.

Her parents will likely think she is in a cult.  It would be hard to disabuse them of that notion given the circumstances, and probably counterproductive to try.  What you want is for her folks to come and see the situation for themselves and to rescue their daughter by taking her to the hospital or back home to the family physician.  

This is not to say I unconditionally approve of instantly medicating the mentally ill believer, but I DO believe that when life is endangered immediate and even drastic measures should be taken.  For some, that means the hospital and medication until counseling can sort out the rest.  

Please call her parents and lay out the entire situation for them, withhold nothing.  Your friend may hate you at first, but you can work through that later after she has help.

[Linda]

I also, strongly agree that you tell her parents what is happening. She is still their daughter, they know her situation better than anyone else does, and they have the right to know what is happening to their daughter while away from home at college.

You know, as a parent, this interference between students and parents is probably the most upsetting aspect of Great Commission churches.

Looking back, involving our family in Great Commission was probably the single biggest (and longest-10 years) mistake we made as parents. God has been faithful and our children are all doing well, but getting over GC has not been easy.

I can't imagine what the road would have been like if our children had gotten involved without us and think parent's have the right to know immediately what their children are involved in.

The system breeds division from parents-especially for students who go off to college and get involved in GC.

Obviously, praying and reading the Bible is a good thing to recommend to anyone. I'm not big on medication either, but it seems blindingly obvious that parents need to be involved here in consultation with the people who know her history and have prescribed the medication. Stopping any medication cold turkey seems really foolish.

The main point, however, is that her parents, have more of an interest in her well being than some well meaning, zealous, peers, or 30-something year old guys who "raised up" each other.

God bless you and her.

Also, my daughter's brother-in-law is the music director at Cornerstone (mentioned above by wastedyearsthere). I've heard good things about that church if you are "church shopping"!

[AgathaL'Orange]

Ditto to Linda.

Also, I'm betting that pastor is more like 25... am I right?

[AgathaL'Orange]

I'm sorry instead of pastor in my former post it should have read "pastor."

My mistake.

[Linda]

I'm sorry instead of pastor in my former post it should have read "pastor."

My mistake.

Hee-hee!

[theresearchpersona]

I'd just like to point out that Jesus said "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; [...]"; now I know his point was to talk about something spiritual (it continues "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.") and that this would have been quite a statement to make to the Pharisees (who saw themselves as righteous); but the tiny detail here is that, even Jesus acknowledged the need for physicians; of course he's more than likely talking not of mental issues, but physical illness, and we are in a quick-to-med society: but it's not to say that all who have mental issues aren't in need of help!

[EverAStudent]

even Jesus acknowledged the need for physicians; of course he's more than likely talking not of mental issues, but physical illness, and we are in a quick-to-med society: but it's not to say that all who have mental issues aren't in need of help!

Absolutely I agree!  It is simply shocking some of the things the Bible states about medicine and even emotional states (I have posted one of my studies at: http://thefaithfulword.org/faithhealing.html ).  

Further, certified Nouthetic Counselors are often excellent resources for those stuggling with depression, etc.

[Linda]

I just have to say that I listened to (as much as I could stand of) Mark Darling's October 24th message (definitely, not a sermon) on sex. Totally inappropriate and disgusting.

If you preach on sex outside of marriage to people who are engaging in it, you should preach repentance. He did not do this. It is utterly revolting.

If you want to give your friend's parents perspective on this movement of churches, have them listen to this one from a member of the GC national board.

[wastedyearsthere]

Linda

Can you post the link here so we can listen to it?

[Linda]

Here's the link to the message archive:

http://www.evergreenccmedia.com/messages/messages_resall.php

It is the October 24th message, Part 4 of the marriage series.

One thing that I have been pondering is the lack of accountability between GC pastors over the messages they "preach" and the counseling they give.

It was Mark Darling who preached that we were his (Mark's) bride and we were borrowing the "house" of another man's bride (referring to renting space in Hosanna church). We questioned this. No clarification or correction was ever made.

It was Mark Darling who told our high school daughter to commit to ECC for the rest of her life unless an elder told her otherwise. We questioned (and left over) this. We asked a pastor to listen to this message and he refused to do it. Said he didn't have to BECAUSE HE KNEW MARK'S HEART.

Now, we have a "sermon" that is prefaced by John Mayer's song "Your Body is a Wonderland" (at least that's the JM song I assume he is referring to) and then goes on to give a lot of statistics with the point being that you shouldn't have sex outside of marriage because it's not as good. At least that was what I got out of it. I heard nothing (and I do admit, I skimmed it, so didn't hear every word) about God's holiness and the need for repentance and forgiveness.

And, why in the world would a pastor with any oversight or discretion say this:

"Listen, I've said this before and I hope you take this the way I mean it, but I've had a lot more sex than probably most of you combined because I've been at it for 30 years. And, if you take the average times 52 weeks in a year times  how many years I've been married, well, let's just say, that's a lot."

Really, if you are a GC leader reading this, you need to get some accountability happening there and some better theology than "Don't have sex outside of marriage because it won't be as pleasurable."

I didn't mean to "hijack" this post, but I think a lot of parent's are not aware of what their college age students are hearing and some GC leaders have bought into the unity thing so wholeheartedly that others are being led astray by their unwillingness to confront bad teaching.

[Huldah]

SESmith, the situation you describe is very disturbing. I read your post a couple of weeks ago, and I've been praying for you and for your roommate since then. Do you have an update? Did you find a safer place to live, and did your roommate get some medical help?

[exshep]

SESmith, the situation you describe is very disturbing. I read your post a couple of weeks ago, and I've been praying for you and for your roommate since then. Do you have an update? Did you find a safer place to live, and did your roommate get some medical help?

Healthy churches recognize their mental health limitations.  The GC stance on depression is just as injurious as the faith healing groups saying that medicine is of the devil.   Good church leadership is going to know when to hand off the issue to a better qualified medical or counseling professional. 

[Huldah]

Healthy churches recognize their mental health limitations.  The GC stance on depression is just as injurious as the faith healing groups saying that medicine is of the devil. 

As time goes by, I'm more and more convinced that "mental" illness is really is just another type of physical illness. The brain is no less a physical organ than the heart, the lungs, or the pancreas. The problems may be genetic, they may stem from a brain injury, or the brain's neurotransmitters may simply have been depleted by prolonged emotional stress. In any case, it's wrong to prevent the sufferer from getting medical help.

Just my opinion.