Looking for Information

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.

[steph]

My daughter started her freshman year at Drake University a few weeks ago. She has quickly gotten involved with the Drake Campus Fellowship which is sponsored by Walnut Creek Community Church. A friend pointed me to this forum and so I wanted to gather more information regarding the church and the campus fellowship. I would appreciate all feedback but I am particularly interested in hearing from students/ parents with firsthand experience with this church/ student group.

I appreciate any information that will be beneficial for my daughter. Please send me a private message if you feel uncomfortable posting here.

[free]

I graduated from Drake last year and I was a part of Campus Fellowship at Drake for my entire college career upon graduation I left the church due to many reasons. The group is great at bringing people in, especially freshmen because they will make the new students feel welcomed and loved. Progressively, they will talk about being more committed and soon enough nearly all of free time is spent within the group doing "the Lord's work". The group/church is very legalistic and very passive aggressive in their control over people. Guilt is a lot to get members/attenders to serve and spend all of their time/money for the benefit of the church. If parents object to their child being a part of the group, the student is usually told that the parents "just don't understand" and convinced that everything they are doing is for the sake of the gospel. In my experience, I was never enough. They take scripture out of context to maintain control over the group for whatever reason, example: favoritism: you can't date or like someone because that would be showing favoritism and that goes against the Bible where in fact the 2 passages that are used to rebuke people for favoritism are talking about discipline of leadership and partiality due to material things. Most of the members will say that they don't care if other people date but they themselves will not until they are ready to get married, but they are very judgmental when other people do date. The group/church is very deceiving, it looks good from far away but the closer and closer you look, you can see how destructive it is and how flawed their teachings are. My suggestion, warn her to stay at a distance, do not let her go to faithwalkers or let her stay and participate in the summer program called epicenter. As Christians, we are free from the bondage of slavery to sin, we have freedom in Christ to LIVE, not just freedom from sin but freedom from legalism. My advice? stay away and safe yourself from a lot of pain and trying to be good enough and just live in the freedom of the saving Christ.

[Involved]

I graduated from Drake a few years ago and I'm still involved in the church. I see where Free is coming from and I feel bad that his/her experience wasn't a good one. I have had a very different experience though. While I am well aware of the church's weaknesses, I also have been able to experience a lot of really great things through the church and the people that go there. Walnut Creek isn't the right church for everyone and in my experiences I don't think they claim to be. I think there are a few people that go there that take things to the extreme, but I don't think that is the fault of the entire congregation. I think that's just a result of having a large population of young college students who are still trying to figure out who they are and what they believe. I would encourage you to talk to your daughter openly and honestly about what she really believes in terms of her faith and then maybe call one of the pastors to see if what Walnut Creek believes lines up with what your family believes. My parents had numerous conversations with the pastors and staff at Walnut Creek. I've actually gotten much closer to my parents through those discussions. They were never told to stay out and I was never told that they just didn't understand. But again, that is my experience. I am not trying to discredit those who have had bad experiences, I just didn't go through anything like that myself.

[newcreature]

Hi Steph,

Here is one piece of information you should be aware of: Tim Rude is the pastor of that church and he was a good friend and a disciple of Jim McCotter who founded GCI and the GCI church in Ames where Tim devoted a lot of his time, energy, and money during the 70s and 80s. You can read the litany of documentation about all the problems with that organization by going to Wikipedia and other sources referred to in this website.

When considering the personal input of others in here, I would consider that "free" listed specific, non-inflammatory reasons why he or she left that group. "Just the facts, ma'am."
 
However, the other post by "involved" made a few general statements like: "...I am well aware of the church's weaknesses..." and: "I think there are a few people that go there that take things to the extreme..." and so on. As a parent, that would raise my eyebrows quite a bit.

When I hear statements like that from "involved," I would be very concerned for my child. I would ask "involved" for specifics. What are the church's weaknesses that are so obvious to you? What are the extremes that people still go to after 40 years of close association with GCx and its practices?

[Involved]

newcreature,

I can assure I was simply trying to convey that I don't think that the church I attend is perfect and that like every other church - the individuals at Walnut Creek are imperfect and have things to work on. My comment on "there are a few people that are extreme" simply means that there are a few individuals in the congregation that take things too far, but I believe they would do that at any church they attended because that is just how they are. I don't believe they are extreme because they have been indoctrinated by GC in anyway. And I'm not specific about the churches weaknesses because I think they are weaknesses of individual people in the church that should be addressed directly with them. When people begin to talk about Walnut Creek and GC as a whole it becomes hurtful to all the "good people" at those churches.

I also disagree with "When considering the personal input of others in here, I would consider that "free" listed specific, non-inflammyou that I didn't mean those things in the way that you took them.atory reasons why he or she left that group. "Just the facts, ma'am."

I believe those statements were Free's personal experience and opinions of the church, just as mine were. Just because I have had an opposite experience at Walnut Creek, doesn't make me the enemy or a liar. It just means I've had a good experience and they haven't. I have had really bad experiences at other churches in Des Moines. It doesn't make them bad churches or bad people, it just means that church wasn't for me.

I'm trying to be objective - Please ask me to clarify by what I might mean if something rubs you the wrong way. Thanks

[Involved]

Just another random question: Has anyone on here actually talked to Tim about his relationship with Jim McCotter? If so, I would be interested in knowing what he said. If not, I may ask him myself sometime soon.

[newcreature]

Involved,

Nothing "rubbed me the wrong way." Why did you assume that? I was simply responding to your very own words:

I am well aware of the church's weaknesses...

and:

I think there are a few people that go there that take things to the extreme...

You are free to revise your quotes anyway you wish, that's not uncommon. In doing so, however, it seems to me you now have an obligation to go talk to the extremists in private since you are well aware of them and how they reflect upon the church.

And now it seems to me you just opened another can of worms with your recent quote:

I have had really bad experiences at other churches in Des Moines.

Could you please be more specific? What were those "really bad" experiences? Which churches? Have you addressed those responsible? Have they changed?

I don't want to walk into a place where reasonable and rational ex-members like you have left because of all the really bad experiences you have suffered from.

[Involved]

newcreature,

I wasn't assuming you were "rubbed in the wrong way" I was trying to say that if something I say offends or hurts someone on this forum, I would like them to ask me to clarify because it is not my intention to pick a fight or cause any more damage to those who have been hurt on this site.

In dealing with the people who have been extreme from time to time... I simply talk to them. I will not make public what I have talked to my brothers and sisters about in private because I feel very strongly that it is wrong to publically declare someone's struggles or sin. But I have talked to individuals from time to time about the way in which they have shared the gospel, misspoken, judged someone, been overzealous or controlling, have misinterpreted scripture etc. These have all been single events or struggles that people are dealing with. Not habitual, prideful and careless acts. I have been met with people that want to change and grow in their love for the Lord and other people. And if we are all honest, I think most people can think of a time where they have slipped up and done some of those things. I know I have.

And I'm sorry but I will not expand upon the churches that I've had bad experiences at because it could be a really good church to someone else who is reading this and I don’t want to taint the image of another church because of one bad experience that I had. I know that sounds snooty, but I have my beliefs and personal preferences. Walnut Creek lines up with the vast majority of those things - the other churches that I’ve visited in the area don’t as much. That’s not saying that they are any less, they are just not for me. Yes, I’ve had a few bad things happen, but I’m sure they could be explained if I continued to go there or talk to their leaders, but I would rather move on and enjoy the place that I’ve found that is right for me. I hope that makes sense.

[Linda]

Steph,
You may want to be aware of the fact that Great Commission Churches teach and ask for commitment to them for the rest of your life. We were oblivious to this teaching until we had been in the group 10 years. While our high school daughter was attending a conference in another state, the speaker (who sits on the national board) asked the high schoolers to commit to their local church for the rest of their life.The exception was that if they attended college in another state, they could attend a GC church in that city, or if their elders sent them to another GC church they could go.

This was the straw that broke the camel's back for us. Minor children obviously are under the authority of their parents. They never publicly corrected that teaching to the 300 high school students who heard it and the teaching is still available online, as is.

College students who are involved in GC groups will be encouraged to attend something called Faithwalkers. This is the week between Christmas and New Years. Here is an excerpt from the Faithwalkers talk on commitment given in December 2008.

"I recognize good churches like you can find a good meal. You might even find a better church down the street...God wants loyalty, God wants us committed to our home church and to its people, and I mean this, for the rest of your life...you say, well what do you mean, I'm gonna be stuck in this church for the rest of my life? Hey, stay with us. You will grow and learn and you will experience God's blessing and glory and you will be involved in heroic enterprises and you will be involved in church planting and in travel and visiting...A side point, just a quick one, and I have to say this, especially for parents and younger men and women here...a heart of commitment and loyalty to your fellow believer is something that only adults can offer God. Children offer their commitment and loyalty to their parents. A 16 year old needs to follow their parents. Rightly so, but listen this is my transition, but a 20 year old is asked by God to commit to him first. It's not a throw away verse when our Lord said, "He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. That's not a throw away verse with God, and his audience was 20 years old. 21, 22, 23. Listen to me Christian. I love God, but I can get between God and my children. Even with the best of intentions. I can hinder my son's or my daughter's own commitment to their savior. I can get in the way. I can easily be interference between them and God and I don't want to be, but I can be interference. Sometimes with the best on intentions even Christian parents can be afraid for our kids and keep them from really standing on their own. Don't go down that road of fear parent. You young children, your commitment and loyalty is expressed in following your parents, but there'll be a time even in Great Commission where 20 year olds and 21 year olds and 22 year olds stand and say, "Dad, I love you, but I'm convinced of this."...I believe that one of the single biggest decisions we will ever make as a Christian that will determine our success as a believer is whether we will commit to our brothers and sisters for life..."

You will note that the speaker (Rick Whitney) backed away from the talk my daughter heard (given by Mark Darling) when he said that minor children should attend the church of their parent's choosing. However, you should also be aware of the fact that the original teaching was never corrected to the audience who heard it. (This would have been a simple correction since they had the mailing address of all the students who attended the conference.) Also, that talk remains available online. So, Mr. Whitney's "disclaimer" rings insincere.

Equally disturbing, though, is the teaching that Christians are to commit to the local church for the rest of their lives. As a fellow parent, I commend you on looking into the group your daughter is involved in. You are wise to ask questions. Also, I don't want to brush over the fact that it is a wonderful thing that your daughter wants to be involved with Christians on campus.

I'm not sure of your background, but it is highly unusual for churches and denominations to ask for a lifetime commitment to one specific church. Another thing about Great Commission that they consider a feather in their cap is their method of choosing elders.

There is much on the history of the movement on this forum, but here is a very quick summary of their leadership structure. Back around 1970, three guys decided to start a church. The main guy was named Jim McCotter (he mysteriously left in the mid-1980's--which is amusing since he was the guy who started the commitment for life idea!). These guys, self-appointed apostles, in turn appointed elders and started churches (mostly on college campuses). Their theory is that all elders are appointed by other elders. Basically this means that all current pastors can trace their roots back to three guys who one day decided they would call themselves apostles and start a church.

I wish you the best. God bless you for your concern for your daughter.

[newcreature]

Involved,

Thanks for your response. It is good that we all have the freedom to offer information for Steph and others to make their own informed decisions about GCx.

I am also glad you stated that you aren’t trying to pick a fight or cause more damage in here. However, it’s hard to know which of your statements I should take at face value when you keep changing your statements in subsequent posts.

For example, first you said, “I think there are a few people that go there that take things to the extreme.” And now you say, “In dealing with the people who have been extreme from time to time... I simply talk to them… I have talked to individuals from time to time about the way in which they have shared the gospel, misspoken, judged someone, been overzealous or controlling, have misinterpreted scripture etc.”

First you conveyed a lack of in-depth involvement at DCF/WCCC by saying you only “think” there are some extremists who go “there.” Now you appear to be heavily involved (are you in leadership?) because you said you have been directly “dealing with people” (a favorite term at GCx, as I recall). Would you please clarify why you are talking to so many extreme people about the extreme ways they have “shared the gospel” or “misspoken” or “judged someone” or “been overzealous or controlling” or “misinterpreted scripture” or “etc?” Please don’t divulge everybody’s identities, but please provide specific examples concerning all the extremism you listed. Please tell us what scripture you used to correct them. Did your “correction” work in all of your “dealing with people” at DCF/WCCC? If not, what did you do?

Here is another example: Which of these different statements should I believe? First you said: “I have had really bad experiences at other churches in Des Moines.” But then you changed your statement after I asked about those experiences and now you say: “I don’t want to taint the image of another church because of one bad experience that I had.” Which is it? Have you had “really bad experiences at other churches” or just one, unspecified, “bad experience” at one church?

It also strikes me as a bit disingenuous to address me directly by name in one post and tell me to ask for clarification if something "rubs me the wrong way" – and then turn around and say your statement was meant for everyone on this forum: “I was trying to say that if something I say offends or hurts someone on this forum, I would like them to ask me to clarify..."

For clarification: In the future, please say exactly what you mean and mean exactly what you say the first time you say it. Furthermore, specific examples are much more helpful than your vague generalizations. However, for the sake of clarity and good communication, I will continue to honor your request and continue to ask for clarification whenever necessary. Thanks.

[current member]

Hi Steph,

I was involved with the Drake Campus Fellowship during my time at Drake and am currently involved with the young adult ministry at Walnut Creek.

Like Involved, I have had a good experience with the fellowship and the church during my time there. I grew up in a Christian family and when I started attending Drake, the CF group attracted my attention because they were striving to love and serve the Lord with their entire lives. I became involved and experienced a lot of growth in my faith. I can go into specifics where my experience is concerned if you would like me to.

My advice to you is to let your daughter know that there are people (like free) that have expressed concerns regarding the fellowship/ church and to ask her to see if they are genuine concerns for her (your daughter). In every church there are going to be people with positive experiences (like myself and Involved) and people with negative experiences (like free). Talk to the pastors. They are very approachable and very easy to talk to.

[Linda]

While I agree with "current member" that perceptions and experiences vary among church members, I urge you to continue looking into the past history and current practices of the specific group, the church that supports it, and the association to which the church belongs (Great Commission).

I will also caution you that we spent many hours, over many months talking with the pastors trying to make sure we understood what the group stood for rather than making a hasty retreat. Two of these pastors sit on the national board. I can tell you that we were misled (a pastor didn't really recall the "statement of error" and never gave us a copy when we asked for it) and betrayed by our pastors (I mention this a lot because it's a big deal, but several pastors sent a copy of a personal letter written to us (that rebuked us for our reasons for leaving) to our grown children who at the time still attended the church).

When you in good faith try to come to an understanding and pastors purposefully keep information from you it's a waste of time. I would never tell you not to talk with a pastor if you have questions, but I would urge you to understand that there is a history of deception in this movement.

[WCCC attendee]

I currently attend WCCC and was a part of Campus Fellowship at Drake while I was in college. Like current member and involved, I also had a positive experience with the fellowship and the church. Overall, I have had a very positive experience with the church. I would say that there are a few people that do take things to the extreme and it is usually caused by these people being young people that are trying to figure things out and may still be growing in these areas. I would encourage you and your daughter to take concerns directly to the leadership as they are always very willing to assist in any way. I have had personal experience taking concerns expressed on this forum to them and they were very open to discussing the issues. If you would like more specifics, I will gladly share more privately.

[ISU Alumna]

Steph,

All my warning bells start ringing when I read something like what you wrote: after just a few weeks at Drake, your daughter has already gotten involved with this group. This is so typical. Incoming freshmen are easy prey to these people. Please advise your daughter to read through everything on this website, and anything else she can find about Great Commission churches.

This movement was founded by people who have practiced deception, on a daily basis, for so long that they are unaware when they are doing it. I would find it difficult to believe anything told to me by current members, because they are either (a) practicing deception, or (b) thoroughly deceived.

Drake is a wonderful university, and you can rightfully be proud of your daughter for studying there. Please encourage her to investigate other local churches and youth groups before letting herself get sucked into the quicksand of anything GC-related. It can take years to pull yourself back out again; and by then, you've wasted some of the most precious time of your life.

God bless you.

[ISU Alumna]

I currently attend WCCC and was a part of Campus Fellowship at Drake while I was in college.

There's an interesting similarity between what "WCCC attendee" writes, and what "Involved" writes:

"I graduated from Drake a few years ago and I'm still involved in the church"

Yikes! These are lifers!

[Linda]

I just went to the web site for the campus group at Drake and noticed that one of the founding apostles, Herschel Martindale, is speaking at a conference they are having in October. It was Herschel and another pastor, Dennis Clark, who first "recognized" Jim McCotter as the founding apostle/elder. Or, did they all kind of "recognize" each other as apostles/elders. Jim was the "head honcho" apostle. At any rate, Herschel was there at the beginning--one of the three founders. If they are having him speak, they are proudly aligning themselves with the early history.

Rick Whitney, who sits on the national board and is a main speaker at Faithwalkers  says in an article on his web page:

Is there not a cause?  Could it have been an honor to be accused of being a cult, those many years ago? Did we have something then, that may have been lost over the years?

Here is a link to some articles you may wish to read.
http://gcxweb.org/Articles.aspx

Listening to these messages from GC leaders may also help you understand what they believe, practice, and teach.
http://gcxweb.org/Audio.aspx

Also, the statement of error is helpful. Many of us believe they are still doing the very things they apologized for. Keep in mind that a pastor who sits on the national board and was a pastor when this was written told us he vaguely remembered something that was more of a "statement of clarification" than apology. He didn't remember the statement of error. He didn't remember he apologized. He didn't remember he was one of the pastors who "ratified" the statement as stated on the last page. He didn't remember that the statement told people to ask their pastor if they had questions or concerns about the statement. Some apology! This was the perfect example of going to a pastor and being misled. Here's the link:
http://gcxweb.org/Misc/WeaknessesPaper.aspx

[trusting in Him]

Steph,
I've been in your daughter's position and my parents' were in your position. When I first started at Drake, I was attracted to the lifestyle of the people involved in Campus Fellowship and after checking out the other student fellowships on campus, I chose to become more involved with CF bible studies and other related activities. My parents were informed of this site by an acquaintance and were unsure what their next step of action should be. They didn't want to approach me right away because they had heard stories of other people rejecting everything on this site and drawing away from the people that brought it up. They reached out to the director of the campus ministry at that time and discussed the situation. While all this was happening on my parents' side, I had actually already stumbled upon this site and was in discussions with my bible study leader and eventually the pastors regarding the issues here. When it all came out that we had all been concerned about the same things, we were able to just sit down and talk about it. None of the leaders pressured us either way to stay or leave and we came to a mutual decision that I would continue to be involved in Campus Fellowship and WCCC. In the ensuing years, I have had a very good experience and am still involved with the church, with my parents full support. If you would like to hear my parents' side of it, I would be more than willing to give you their contact information and I know that they would be very willing to share their experiences. I'm not negating anyone else's experience with Walnut Creek, I'm just sharing my own.

[Linda]

Trusting in him,
Did I hear that the director of the campus ministry recently left? If so, why did he leave? Do you know? Is that the man you spoke with?

[trusting in Him]

Linda,
Yes, he did leave. I do not know his reasons for leaving. He is the person that my parents approached.

[Linda]

The leader left and didn't say why?