Looking for introduction/faq

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[Wiggly]

Hey all,

I was wondering if there was an "introduction" to this site that I may have missed.  I see that it's a gathering place for people who are former members and their testimonies.  And while I will probably spend some time reading many of these, I was wondering if I could find a "thesis" statement for it all.

Sincerely,

[Wiggly]

I found this weaknesses paper and read through it....

http://gcxweb.org/Misc/WeaknessesPaper.aspx

There's a lot of big problems addressed on there.  Many of these problems (I assume) would make the church unappealing.  As it stands today, there is a lot appealing about the one GCx church I've attended for about a year now.  I know I am fooling myself though, I'm sure the church of 20-30 years ago was appealing too, or else it wouldn't have grown. 

Anyway, I've stumbled across this forum by accident.  I guess if GCx is still hurting people, I would want to know about it.  Some of the past events that the paper I just read are ugly, to say the least.  That paper is dated in '91, over 22 years ago now, though.  I can't say I've witnessed any of the problems listed at a level that would alarm me.  I actually noted this before reading the Weakness paper but teachings frequently note, "And this next part is my personal belief" or "This is not the only way or even necessarily the best way, but in my personal experience... ".  Perhaps this is a direct result of their 'commitment to distinguish between command, principle, and preference.'


I would like to hope I have an open mind, but I am very happy with the church I'm attending so its unlikely I'll be completely unbiased.  I think that God wants me here, at least for the present and I have learned some valuable lessons.  The people in the church are generally eager to love and serve.  With that said, I guess if you want to enlighten me with things that I'm not aware of, I would be grateful.

[Linda]

People are still being hurt by this group in big ways. Families are being divided.

I recommend that you listen to talks from national events and determine whether or not the teaching is sound. Generally speaking, classic Protestant teaching does not allow for men to be between believers and God. Any time a leader tries to tell you that you are to "obey" him, a big red flag should go up.

As far as church growth is concerned, just because something is growing, does not mean it is good. I believe I read recently that one of the fastest growing religions is the Mormon church. Conversely, just because something is small does not mean it is bad.

[Wiggly]

But if a church is appealing, it is more likely to grow.  In my mind, if GCx had all these problems that they admitted to with this letter, I would assume the church would not be appealing, and would be less likely to grow.  But from the sounds of it, they grew in spite of these problems.  As you said, growth doesn't mean anything in the terms of good and bad.  The only point I was trying to convey is that my church today has a lot of appeal, as I'm sure they did a long time ago.

[AgathaL'Orange]

The movement at one time appealed to all of us former members.  The nature of cults and cult leaders is that they are typically VERY appealing and very dynamic.  That's why they are so dangerous.  It's probably why the Amish aren't exactly the fastest growing denomination in the country, they have no desire to be seen as appealing or culturally relevant.  I can see why people attend GCx churches even to this day.  

I don't mean to be rude, but "being appealing" is about the last criteria I would use to decide who my major life alliances would be.  Being socially adept and skillful manipulators of people's emotions can be both dangerous and an amazing life skill.  On the other hand, being honest and open would be a major criteria for me joining a group or having a friendship.  And on this test GCx fails again and again.  Why else would we all have gone to search engines and found histories that were covered up and minimized?  

Just start with the leadership and go down the list.  How many have family strife?  Search them on this site and see what their teachings are.  The evidence is breathtakingly large in scope and really difficult to sum up in a few bite size pieces here and there.  

I suppose if I were to sum it all up into one thing, I would say, GCx treats its members like children.  It does all the thinking and much of the life planning for its members.  

No one should ever have to ask permission to date someone, get married, move away, or make major life decisions.  Our pastor thought he had that authority in our lives.  When I asked who he went to for a mentor, in the same way that I went to him, he said, "God."  Right.  Okay.  How's that working for you in accountability?  Obviously, as his relationship fallout is clear to see, I would say he needs to expand his openness and accountability.

[Wiggly]

It seems I've done a poor job of communicating.  That's not a shocker, though.  I've never been especially good at it.

Appealing can mean very different things to different people.  I don't see why you wouldn't want it to be appealing.  Of course, it should be appealing AND safe.  Appealing AND true.  Appealing by no means should be the number one factor in these decisions.  Oh well, I should probably just drop this point.  I was merely trying to empathize with the people here.  My inner monologue, "The church is appealing, yes, great, but it was appealing for most of the people here as well."

Anyway, in large part, the leadership has caused the hurt.  Please correct me if I misspeak.  If this is the case, that is the answer to my initial inquiry, I think.  If I am going to step back, and try to take an unbiased test on the church that I attend, then I wanted a much more narrow scope to do it on.  If I was going to study one thing and stack up what I found and saw against the word, against prayerful and hopefully spirit driven opinion, what should that one thing be?  And from your answer it sounds like it should be the 'leadership'.  That's fair, and I thank you for your answer.

If anyone has other 'targets' for me, please feel free to share.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Okay, I get it now!  You were saying that just because it's appealing to you, doesn't mean it's good?  Haha.  Sorry, I was reading it exactly the opposite.  I've got to run now, but if I have time later today, I'll see if I can find the little writeup of the worst of the worst. 

It's tricky because we try not to name names.  But honestly, maybe we should have been more open and honest in the beginning, because people have continued to suffer serious damage through the years and I feel responsible somehow. 

[EverAStudent]

You asked what one should look for if one were to try to determine if this GC church had lingering problems from its association with the GC leadership of yesteryear.  My answer is:

1) try to find out where the current leadership obtained its hermeneutics training (preferrably a reputable seminary and not from "other pastors")
2) ask if the leadership has studied Greek (or possibly Hebrew)
3) ask the current leadership how many people they personally had to take through "church discipline" (a number higher than one may indicate they still practice excommunicating people for merely disagreeing with the pastors instead of reserving discipline as a corrective measure for gross public sinners)
4) ask the pastors what the highest priority of their church is at present (if the answer is evangelism instead of Ephesians 4:10-16 equipping then you know the church's priorities are biblically misaligned)
5) ask the pastors whether they have ever asked anyone to commit to their local church for life (old school GC leadership taught the heresy that loyalty to the church and its leaders was a higher ideal than obedience to God's Word).

Other than that, you have the weaknesses/errors paper and can see what little they themselves recognized as improprieties, down-played as they were in the paper.

[Linda]

Appealing can mean very different things to different people.  I don't see why you wouldn't want it to be appealing.

If, by appealing, you mean, "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone (Romans 12:18)," and be kind, helpful, generous, patient, respectful of individuals and families, as you preach the Gospel of hope in the risen Christ who had "no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him" (Isaiah 53:2), I agree.

If, by appealing, you mean have trendy music, wear cool clothes, talk about edgy and relevant things, make church "fun", and do all these things because you feel you need to "make Christ attractive", I disagree with all my being.

There is nothing we can do to make Christ more attractive. He did it all.

[Wiggly]

Thanks for the responses.  Replies below.

Okay, I get it now!  You were saying that just because it's appealing to you, doesn't mean it's good?  Haha.  Sorry, I was reading it exactly the opposite.  I've got to run now, but if I have time later today, I'll see if I can find the little writeup of the worst of the worst. 

It's tricky because we try not to name names.  But honestly, maybe we should have been more open and honest in the beginning, because people have continued to suffer serious damage through the years and I feel responsible somehow. 

Right. Bingo!  Common understanding feels good.

Only share what you're comfortable sharing.
Thanks.

You asked what one should look for if one were to try to determine if this GC church had lingering problems from its association with the GC leadership of yesteryear.  My answer is:

1) try to find out where the current leadership obtained its hermeneutics training (preferrably a reputable seminary and not from "other pastors")
2) ask if the leadership has studied Greek (or possibly Hebrew)
3) ask the current leadership how many people they personally had to take through "church discipline" (a number higher than one may indicate they still practice excommunicating people for merely disagreeing with the pastors instead of reserving discipline as a corrective measure for gross public sinners)
4) ask the pastors what the highest priority of their church is at present (if the answer is evangelism instead of Ephesians 4:10-16 equipping then you know the church's priorities are biblically misaligned)
5) ask the pastors whether they have ever asked anyone to commit to their local church for life (old school GC leadership taught the heresy that loyalty to the church and its leaders was a higher ideal than obedience to God's Word).

Other than that, you have the weaknesses/errors paper and can see what little they themselves recognized as improprieties, down-played as they were in the paper.

Thank you for this.  This is along the lines of what I was searching for!

If, by appealing, you mean, "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone (Romans 12:18)," and be kind, helpful, generous, patient, respectful of individuals and families, as you preach the Gospel of hope in the risen Christ who had "no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him" (Isaiah 53:2), I agree.

If, by appealing, you mean have trendy music, wear cool clothes, talk about edgy and relevant things, make church "fun", and do all these things because you feel you need to "make Christ attractive", I disagree with all my being.

There is nothing we can do to make Christ more attractive. He did it all.

I appreciate your definitions.  We're much more likely to find a common understanding. 

What I first found appealing about this church was prayer.  That's what got me.  I'm young, mid twenties, but through my circumstances as a child I have been to several churches.  And while my experiences at these churches are not even close to the full range of churches out there, I had been to enough to see a trend among my peers.  Christians my age simply were not putting God first.  (I'm sure many of them would have said the same for me.)  We were/are young - not really a likely place to find mature Christians.

To see a gathering of people my age, praying because they wanted to, literally brought me to tears.  I am sold on the individuals that make up this church body where I'm at.  Sold.  It's the hearts of these men and women that appeal to me.  Serving their neighbor, serving each other, praying together, worshiping together.  These hearts are what appeal to me.

Now, with that said, a lot of the criticism that I've read about the GCC hasn't really had the chance to have shown itself to me.  I haven't sought their counsel.  I haven't witnessed a case of church discipline (at least that I know of) in my year-ish+ being here.  The pastors haven't asked me to commit to them for life, but I haven't really been here all that long for that situation to present itself.  For the most part, my interactions with the pastors have been pleasantries. 

So that's where I'm at.  Thank you for the direction.  I will be alert to what you all have written to me and hopefully follow the path He wants for me.  Thanks for the input you've given thus far and feel free to add in anything else.

[Linda]

Hi Wiggly,

Have you seen this?

http://www.gcmwarning.com/Concerns.aspx

Or, this?

http://www.gcxweb.org

[Huldah]

I'm young, mid twenties, but through my circumstances as a child I have been to several churches...I had been to enough to see a trend among my peers.  Christians my age simply were not putting God first.  (I'm sure many of them would have said the same for me.)  We were/are young - not really a likely place to find mature Christians.

To see a gathering of people my age, praying because they wanted to, literally brought me to tears.  I am sold on the individuals that make up this church body where I'm at.  Sold.  It's the hearts of these men and women that appeal to me.  Serving their neighbor, serving each other, praying together, worshiping together.  These hearts are what appeal to me.

This is exactly what drew me in. I loved the open, unashamed prayer. I loved the fact that the brothers eagerly searched the Scriptures for commands to obey. I loved the way people shared their salvation testimonies when they were introduced to me, and asked me openly how I came to the Lord.

At first, I didn't realize that all this enthusiasm was driven by legalism and by some serious mishandling of Scripture. I didn't realize I was being asked to commit for life, because no one actually asked. It was just assumed by the leadership. By the time I was starting to question some of the practices of the church, I was told, "God put you here, and only God can remove you," and, "Excommunication is a terrible thing. Don't do that to yourself," (i.e., don't put yourself in a position where we have to do that to you).

I was too young to realize that showy Christianity isn't the same thing as mature Christianity. I mistook outward devotion (of which there was plenty) for depth of wisdom and knowledge.

The elders have consistently demonstrated a sketchy, shallow, and incomplete grasp of Christian doctrine. They take verses out of context. They seek to micro-manage the lives of their followers. As long as you're playing along, then you're not on their radar for "correction". If your GC church is like mine, you won't really know where you stand with them until you  challenge them on some point.

[Outtathere]

I'm curious as to where you attend. In my opinion, that may make a "bigger" difference on how and when you notice the problems. My own opinion is that eventually, the things which are doctrinally wrong in a movement will eventually have an effect on you or (just as scary) on your children.

I've noticed among the children that are second generation, there is a weird buying into the system (if that makes sense). I attribute it to the posts I have read on this site to H.S.L.T. experiences. This is a generalization, but I feel that the people who grew up in the movement and stay in the movement tend to be underachievers. What I mean is that in general, they just kind of hang out at church instead of building productive careers. In fact, some seem trapped or depressed and settle for a lifestyle imposed upon them. The other extreme is that some become very rebellious. Again, this is a general observation, but there doesn't seem to be the person who grows up in the movement and becomes a successful businessman, lawyer, doctor and stays with the movement.

There are exceptions, but for a movement that once promised to reach the entire world with the gospel on their own, I haven't seen a lot of promise from the people they are passing the baton to. Then again, Mark Darling would quote repeatedly that the movement was made up of people who were not noble (1 Corinthians 1:26-28).

If your church has a sermon posted online, I would be happy to give it a listen and point out (hopefully in a loving manner) the things which may not align with scripture. It may be worth considering since eventually, anything that doesn't line up with truth (no matter how well intended) will eventually cause damage to your life. Better to wrestle with it now than after you have 4 teenagers and an unhappy wife to deal with.

[2xA Ron]

A lot of it has to do with leadership, and as Huldah has pointed out, you may not know of what sort your leaders are until you find yourself having a disagreement with them.  For me, the first sign was that my leader expressed concern that I was participating in another campus ministry on the side, ostensibly because he was afraid I didn't have time for both (however, at no point did anyone in the other campus ministry ever express similar concerns).  Then, I started hearing about other people having conflicts with their leaders because they weren't following "council" in areas of personal life, such as dating, clothing, and how to approach friendship with the opposite sex.  Finally, I made a decision to try to start dating another Christian in the church and ran into huge problems with the leadership, wherein I discovered most of the items listed in the Statement of Error (which was 21 years old at the time) turned out to still apply to various leaders, occasionally in subtle ways (like they didn't actively discourage and downplay education...but why did my peers feel so guilty for missing a Bible study because of homework?).

Like Outtathere said, where you attend my make a huge difference, though.  My understanding is that the GCx is only loosely affiliated in some respects.  Your leadership may be different.  Also, if you have a concern, I have found leadership at the highest levels willing to listen and take action.  Whether they actually manage to change anything I haven't yet been able to tell, but it can't hurt to try.

[Wiggly]

Hi Wiggly,

Have you seen this?

http://www.gcmwarning.com/Concerns.aspx

Or, this?

http://www.gcxweb.org

I've read through the Concerns.aspx -- haven't the gcxweb.org.
That's a whole bunch of information. Kind of intimidating.

Thanks

I'm young, mid twenties, but through my circumstances as a child I have been to several churches...I had been to enough to see a trend among my peers.  Christians my age simply were not putting God first.  (I'm sure many of them would have said the same for me.)  We were/are young - not really a likely place to find mature Christians.

To see a gathering of people my age, praying because they wanted to, literally brought me to tears.  I am sold on the individuals that make up this church body where I'm at.  Sold.  It's the hearts of these men and women that appeal to me.  Serving their neighbor, serving each other, praying together, worshiping together.  These hearts are what appeal to me.

This is exactly what drew me in. I loved the open, unashamed prayer. I loved the fact that the brothers eagerly searched the Scriptures for commands to obey. I loved the way people shared their salvation testimonies when they were introduced to me, and asked me openly how I came to the Lord.

At first, I didn't realize that all this enthusiasm was driven by legalism and by some serious mishandling of Scripture. I didn't realize I was being asked to commit for life, because no one actually asked. It was just assumed by the leadership. By the time I was starting to question some of the practices of the church, I was told, "God put you here, and only God can remove you," and, "Excommunication is a terrible thing. Don't do that to yourself," (i.e., don't put yourself in a position where we have to do that to you).

I was too young to realize that showy Christianity isn't the same thing as mature Christianity. I mistook outward devotion (of which there was plenty) for depth of wisdom and knowledge.

The elders have consistently demonstrated a sketchy, shallow, and incomplete grasp of Christian doctrine. They take verses out of context. They seek to micro-manage the lives of their followers. As long as you're playing along, then you're not on their radar for "correction". If your GC church is like mine, you won't really know where you stand with them until you  challenge them on some point.

May I ask how long it's been since you've left?
In what ways would you say their motivations were legalistic?

I generally give anyone the benefit of doubt when it comes to things like motivation.  I wouldn't consider myself a great judge of it, so perhaps your experience can help.

I'm curious as to where you attend. In my opinion, that may make a "bigger" difference on how and when you notice the problems. My own opinion is that eventually, the things which are doctrinally wrong in a movement will eventually have an effect on you or (just as scary) on your children.

I've noticed among the children that are second generation, there is a weird buying into the system (if that makes sense). I attribute it to the posts I have read on this site to H.S.L.T. experiences. This is a generalization, but I feel that the people who grew up in the movement and stay in the movement tend to be underachievers. What I mean is that in general, they just kind of hang out at church instead of building productive careers. In fact, some seem trapped or depressed and settle for a lifestyle imposed upon them. The other extreme is that some become very rebellious. Again, this is a general observation, but there doesn't seem to be the person who grows up in the movement and becomes a successful businessman, lawyer, doctor and stays with the movement.

There are exceptions, but for a movement that once promised to reach the entire world with the gospel on their own, I haven't seen a lot of promise from the people they are passing the baton to. Then again, Mark Darling would quote repeatedly that the movement was made up of people who were not noble (1 Corinthians 1:26-28).

If your church has a sermon posted online, I would be happy to give it a listen and point out (hopefully in a loving manner) the things which may not align with scripture. It may be worth considering since eventually, anything that doesn't line up with truth (no matter how well intended) will eventually cause damage to your life. Better to wrestle with it now than after you have 4 teenagers and an unhappy wife to deal with.

I don't attend in Iowa.  It seems like that Iowa gets a lot of the attention in threads around here.  None of the board members (according to here: http://www.gccweb.org/about/gcc-board/ ) are pastors at my church.

I'll likely take you up on the sermon via PM.

A lot of it has to do with leadership, and as Huldah has pointed out, you may not know of what sort your leaders are until you find yourself having a disagreement with them.  For me, the first sign was that my leader expressed concern that I was participating in another campus ministry on the side, ostensibly because he was afraid I didn't have time for both (however, at no point did anyone in the other campus ministry ever express similar concerns).  Then, I started hearing about other people having conflicts with their leaders because they weren't following "council" in areas of personal life, such as dating, clothing, and how to approach friendship with the opposite sex.  Finally, I made a decision to try to start dating another Christian in the church and ran into huge problems with the leadership, wherein I discovered most of the items listed in the Statement of Error (which was 21 years old at the time) turned out to still apply to various leaders, occasionally in subtle ways (like they didn't actively discourage and downplay education...but why did my peers feel so guilty for missing a Bible study because of homework?).

Like Outtathere said, where you attend my make a huge difference, though.  My understanding is that the GCx is only loosely affiliated in some respects.  Your leadership may be different.  Also, if you have a concern, I have found leadership at the highest levels willing to listen and take action.  Whether they actually manage to change anything I haven't yet been able to tell, but it can't hurt to try.

If I run into problems, I'm sure this is where it will happen.  I still love my old pastor and his church really.  I don't serve for them as much but I do like to go over there occasionally. 

Also, would you mind sharing your problems when it came to dating?  Via PM if that's more comfortable.  This could be even more relevant than splitting time between ministries.

[araignee19]

I was at Summitview, in Fort Collins, CO, for about 5 years starting in 2007. I fell in love with that church for many of the reasons said above: basically, people seemed serious about their faith. It wasn't a game to them, or a whimsical Sunday morning event. I became very involved, very quickly. Within a year, they asked me if I would become an apprentice on the discipleship team. I agreed. This is when things starting getting bad (although I didn't realize this until several years later). I committed so much time and money to church (with the encouragement of my leaders) that I worked myself to death and went into debt. My grades suffered. My relationship with my family and old friends suffered. etc.  I saw many of the problems from the SOE, but none outright taught. There was simply a cultural mood, an extreme peer pressure, that pushed these ideas often without specifically preaching them from the pulpit. I eventually started to see problems, and fight against the culture, thinking I could change it. It didn't exactly end like I had hoped... Summitview is more or less the same from what I can tell, and I burnt out and became quite depressed and zombie-like for about a year and a half. Also got myself kicked out for being "divisive" and not being "unified with the vision of the team."

I think that a lot of the problems at this particular church were hidden until you either challenged leadership, or joined leadership (at which point most of the time you have accepted the lies as truth anyway). As long as you stayed on the fringes you were ok, except the constant pressure to commit more and more time. It might not be the same at your church, but it's something to keep an eye out for.

[Linda]

As long as you stayed on the fringes you were ok, except the constant pressure to commit more and more time.

This resonates with me.

Also, your comments about your relationship with your family and old friends suffering, burn out, depression, all resonate.

One thing that struck me as "odd" was the number of GC pastor's wives with fibromyalgia who would be out of commission for days/weeks on end. I really felt for them and always wondered if the stresses of putting the church first was catching up in the form of fibromyalgia and other stress related issues.

[Ned_Flanders]

The movement at one time appealed to all of us former members.  The nature of cults and cult leaders is that they are typically VERY appealing and very dynamic.  That's why they are so dangerous.  It's probably why the Amish aren't exactly the fastest growing denomination in the country, they have no desire to be seen as appealing or culturally relevant.  I can see why people attend GCx churches even to this day.  

I don't mean to be rude, but "being appealing" is about the last criteria I would use to decide who my major life alliances would be.

I just started reading this thread.  Sorry, Agatha, but I don't think I would use the Amish as an example here.  No disrespect to tem but in a lot of ways, that group seems very controlling, too: Their people all have to dress a certain way and so on.  While I admire the simplicity of their lives, especially when technology bogs me down, that life is not for me. 

[Linda]

Agatha, but I don't think I would use the Amish as an example here.  No disrespect to them but in a lot of ways, that group seems very controlling, too: Their people all have to dress a certain way and so on.  While I admire the simplicity of their lives, especially when technology bogs me down, that life is not for me.

Not to put words in Agatha's mouth, but pretty sure she wasn't commending them to us, but merely making a commentary on the idea/results of "marketing" religion.

Some churches/denominations/religions grow because God is at work, some grow because "the Devil" is at work.

[AgathaL'Orange]

The movement at one time appealed to all of us former members.  The nature of cults and cult leaders is that they are typically VERY appealing and very dynamic.  That's why they are so dangerous.  It's probably why the Amish aren't exactly the fastest growing denomination in the country, they have no desire to be seen as appealing or culturally relevant.  I can see why people attend GCx churches even to this day.  

I don't mean to be rude, but "being appealing" is about the last criteria I would use to decide who my major life alliances would be.

I just started reading this thread.  Sorry, Agatha, but I don't think I would use the Amish as an example here.  No disrespect to tem but in a lot of ways, that group seems very controlling, too: Their people all have to dress a certain way and so on.  While I admire the simplicity of their lives, especially when technology bogs me down, that life is not for me. 

Oh, yes, I was just commenting that the Amish do not try to paint themselves as culturally appealing.  You won't find them putting up billboards, or ads, or touting themselves as cool in order to get members.  I've actually heard they are controlling (or different pockets of them are controlling) too, and wouldn't recommend membership, but yes, I'm more speaking to how GCx markets itself in a deliberately appealing way.  They have a target demographic (Did Jesus have a target demographic, pretty sure he targeted the entire world), and seek to reach that demographic.  This is just one of the many screwed up things they do.