Looking for some information in Des Moines

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[Captein]

Hello all, first a few things about myself (my personal story and beliefs would fill a library, so I'll just skip to the good parts): I am technically what you would call an atheist, although I do understand and accept religiosity and spirituality in harmless forms.

[EverAStudent]

Dear Captein, welcome to the forum.

[EverAStudent]

LOL  Well, after 40 years of being a Christian I am still "wary" to the extreme!!  So we have that in common, Captein.  LOL

Did Des Moines go the Emergent route, or did they go the Reformation fundamentalist route, or did they stay mainline GC (i.e. a fuzzy mix of fundamentalism, emotionalism, neo-Calvinism, and Plymouth Brethren)?  

Also, How authority-centric are they at present?  

Thanks.

[DevastatedTC]

There is a culture here that definitely wants marriages and families to succeed. People don't gravitate to dating as much as they do to courting. To me it is basically semantics.

The positives to me are that people are giving thought to what relationships before marriage should look like and not basing it on the culture. Also, there is a desire in the culture here to have pure relationships that don't gravitate toward a christian dating environment. There are churches where you feel like that is part of the culture or why people are there.

Negatives are that some people feel you need to go through leadership at all phases of a relationship process. My own perception is that people get married a lot here, but it is almost always to somebody else in the church. In that sense, it's like Christians don't even exist outside of the church walls. The other thing I noticed is that the more spiritual you are, the more likely you can ask anyone to date you with the intention to marry and they will.

There is a sense of needing to seek counsel for beginning a relationships. I got the sense in the bible studies that people knew where people were in the whole seeking process as well.

To answer the last post, there is a fuzzy mix. Mainly because people don't like to talk too in depth about doctrine. They are authority-centric, but they work hard at not seeming heavy handed. I don't know what some of the terms mean, but you aren't supposed to be a Calvinist. I'm not sure about neo-Calvinism.

[EverAStudent]

DevastatedTC,

Thanks for the overview.  It sounds like they are old-school mainline GC in their present doctrines and practices (e.g. authority-centric with fuzzy ill-defined doctrines drawn from an eclectic set of denominational traditions but most strongly identifiable as Plymouth Brethren).  

I would assume that sermons are predominantly about evangelism with some marriage and family instruction often tossed into the pot, while doctrine "proper" is rarely if ever a sermon topic.  Further, I assume that when the Old Testament is invoked it is either used to prove a point about evangelism or to demonstrate that a certain arcane GC rule or tradition is actually a usable part of the Law.  

Old School GC never understood the Old Testament well enough to teach on it accurately so they often allegorized it or tried to use it to idealize the actions and sins of the partriarchs (not understanding that the patriarchs were often depicted as miserable sinners forgiven by faith and were not paragons of virtuous actions to be imitated).  In fact on this forum old school GC'ers tried to show how it was wise and good to lie to the unsaved administators on college campuses because that is the "valid" example that Rahab gives us via Scripture of liars being rewarded (sigh...). 

[Captein]

Sorry to show my ignorance of ignorance on the details of different Christian denominations, and I realize that platforms can vary from congregation to congregation, but are there any specific stances this church takes that would separate it from mainline Protestantism? EverAStudent mentioned the Plymouth Brethren:

No distinction is made in Brethren teaching between men and women in their individual relation to Christ and his "vicarious atonement" for them on the cross, or their individual position before God as believers. However, in most Brethren meetings the principle of "male headship" is applied in accordance with teaching found in several passages in the Bible, including 1 Corinthians 11:3, which says:

    "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

"1 The Head of every man is Christ – no equality. 2 The head of the woman is the man – equality and subjection. 3 The Head of Christ is God – equality, yet subjection."[31]

Thus most Brethren meetings reserve public leadership and teaching roles to men, based on 1 Timothy 2:11,12...:

    "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."

Also, 1 Corinthians 14:34,35 states, "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

And while objectively I find that a fairly disturbing thing to teach, is that the official view of the churches in Des Moines? If so, how insistent are they in applying those teachings to your life?

[EverAStudent]

Dear Captein,

In the most general sense most "major" GC doctrines (with notable exceptions) are orthodox Protestant doctrines:  Christ is God eternal, Jesus died to save the world from its sins, Jesus rose bodily from death to assume headship over the church and all persons living and dead, salvation is by faith in Christ alone without appeal to human works, choice for or against Christ is made by humans while alive and cannot be changed after their death, and after death comes judgment to eternal life or to eternal death.  

Nuances of doctrines between Protestant denominations usually take effect at the church governance level, and are generally considered nit-picking when compared to the major doctrines described above.  Yes, most orthodox Protestant denominations used to hold to male leadership in the Pastor role (many "fundamental" or "conservative" churches still do) while holding to male and female equality in all other aspects of church roles.  To conservative churches having a male-only pastorate is no more gender discrimantion against females as is the notion that only women can have the honor of bearing children could be construed as nature having an anti-male bias.  It is just the way it is.

Captein, what you will find in this forum is a general complaint that GC pastors have often demand to be obeyed in personal matters (apart from biblical doctrine) and have demanded far too much personal labor from church members than is biblically healthy for them to give.  Moreover, the pastors are ill-trained as pastors and ill-trained in how to read and interpret Scriptures accurately, leading to further misleading of the congregants at a spiritual level.

Nonetheless, most of us will admit we made our own choices to participate in GC willingly and even eagerly, ourselves being too ignorant and zealous at the time.  There was no coersion or brainwashing, merely ignorance.  Peer pressure and fear of God were the operating levers.  For many of us better Bible study allowed us to become freed from the ignorance that bound us to GC.  
 

[Linda]

Captein, what you will find in this forum is a general complaint that GC pastors have often demand to be obeyed in personal matters (apart from biblical doctrine) and have demanded far too much personal labor from church members than is biblically healthy for them to give.  Moreover, the pastors are ill-trained as pastors and ill-trained in how to read and interpret Scriptures accurately, leading to further misleading of the congregants at a spiritual level.

EAS, good point, it is this point that makes it hard for me to call GC churches "protestant".

I don't see how they can say they are protestant when a huge point of the reformation was Sola Scriptura. They definitely do not want to identify with Catholics and do not have the history or tradition of the Orthodox, but they suggest to Christians that they should be a disciple of a person. Even the Catholics whom they dismiss don't advocate having a "guy" who was "recognized" dictate where you should live and who you should marry.

Captein, the danger associated with your friend attending this church would be if they teach her that she needs to have a "discipler" or a person that she is to obey and report to. The Bible teaches that when a person becomes a Christian, they are given the gift of a helper--the Holy Spirit. It is dangerous for someone to assume that role in another's life.

Also, one interesting thing about churches that have only male leaders and pastors. Most of the churches I have ever attended hold to that view. Based on the verses you quoted, they believed that was the most Biblical and I tend to agree. However, with the exception of the GC church I attended, all the churches have congregational votes on major issure (like who should be the pastor and should we buy a building). Women are considered full voting members based on the idea that all Christians have been given specific gifts by the Holy Spirit and all those gifts are necessary for the Church.

In GC churches, I would point out that all women and most of the men are left out of any meaningful decision making process. I attribute this to flawed teaching that has been passed down from elder to elder. They keep perpetuating the error because they will not listen and learn from anyone outside their group. And, apparently, they know very little about church history.

[EverAStudent]

Captein, I must say, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your last post.  Insightful, thought-filled, self-reflecting.

With regard to the supernatural spiritual element of existence, as you state regarding yourself, we would agree that this is a form of spiritual blindness.  But you know what you have rejected (and thus do not see) so if you call this a "blindness" then you at least know you are blind in that one area of life (that is, you do not see what we see in Christianity).  I think many GC pastors ought to know they are blind with regard to faulty leadership, but they choose to ignore this in themselves.

Yes, independent thinking is something all people, especially Christians ought to excel at.  But independent does not mean antagonistic when it comes to the Scriptures, it means able to apply one's own study and valid logic to obtain proper and correct interpretations regardless of what others may think.  Independent thinking does still allow one to conform to God and to God's Word.  In other words, independent need not mean unruly or undisciplined with regard to spirituality.

It is always to good to know one's own biases, as you indicate you know regarding yourself.  Of course, I know my bias is toward Christian thought and biblical edict, so that informs my other thought patterns.  Bias is not bad, but it always needs to be examined to determine if it is valid. 

Blessings.  Keep thinking, deeply.

[Captein]

Thank you, the undeserved compliments are very much appreciated. Unfortunately I had to edit or delete the first few posts to protect identity (now that I will be attending the DTC while there are active members on this forum), but this thread will be moved to a more appropriate category. Looking forward to reading your replies, it is always nice to meet someone with a well-defined perspective. Especially when contrary to my own.