mamad's Story

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[MamaD]

As 2006 ends, I can’t help but reflect upon the past year.

As last year began, never would I have imagined I would be posting on this site and have new friends named Agatha, Bertrand, Gene, and Genevieve, and many others with equally creative names and some with really “normal” ones.

I have decided that the new year will be the end of my regular posting on decommissioned since I have nothing new to add to the discussion and to perpetually rehash information is rather unpleasant for me.

The nature of posting a comment on a blog like this is that as new people arrive, there is information buried in earlier comments that they have never heard and as I commented I felt the need to always be bringing people up to speed. That’s why I appreciated having my husband’s blog post up and available to anyone who wanted to come and read it.

My desire to communicate began last August, when my husband was asked by an ECC elder to remove a blog post he had written that explained our reasons for leaving ECC. He wrote that post 10 months after we left and put it on his personal blog (that apparently had more readers than he was aware of!). If you’ve been reading this blog, you know the story.

Removing his post, left me feeling like our voice had been silenced. Which, I guess it had. And, that’s how I found myself trying to inform and explain in comments on this blog.

Terry’s post explained our reasons for leaving as kindly and as orderly as he could. It was written with great thought over several weeks. It wasn’t a hastily prepared rant. I am very relieved that he has put it back up in the original spot on his blog. He offers a note of explanation as well as a couple of words of clarification.

Here’s the link to the June archives. The post is on June 16th.

http://tmdugan.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_tmdugan_archive.html

The request for him to remove the post came via e-mail from an elder who at the time we considered a friend. This elder questioned my husband’s motives and told him it seemed like his goal was to be divisive. Three days later, this man’s wife called me sobbing and asking me to ask my husband to remove the post. We are not heartless people. Terry pondered what to do and decided to remove the post in the interest of trying to preserve a friendship while he asked others for advice as to whether or not it should go back up.

Sadly, the friendship ended over this (in spite of the fact that my husband honored his request) without a word being spoken.

In the meantime, he received lots of input telling him to keep the post up from a variety of sources including pastors, ECC former members, ECC current members, Christian friends, Christian relatives, people we don’t even know, and in one case a pastor who works with cults (not Larry Pile). All the input he received, except for two letters, told him he should keep the blog post up. One current ECC member who shall remain anonymous even went as far as to say, “If Terry takes the blog down, Satan wins.”

The two letters (one hand written and delivered unexpectedly to our home one day and the other via e-mail) telling him to keep the post down were from Bloomington ECC elders. One begged us “as brothers and sisters in Christ to stop the slanderous and judgmental accusations,” that were set forth in Terry’s post.

The other told us the post should stay down because if it wasn’t true it was slander (everything we wrote was true) and if it was true, we hadn’t done it in love or according to Matthew 18.

Just to clarify, we began meeting with pastors over our concerns in November of 2003. We left in August of 2005. We spoke many times, with many pastors, for many hours over the course of many months to resolve what we had hoped was a big misunderstanding. Our issues were not sin issues. We were not and still are not accusing any pastors of sin. Our concerns were over what we considered to be unscriptural views of the role of the elders and what it meant to be a church body.

The bottom line here is that Matthew 18 doesn’t apply, but even if it did, we had met well over the 2 times indicated in that passage. And, if you recall Larry Pile’s answers, he mentioned the problem with trying to follow Matthew 18. The point he made that hit home for me was:

let me assure you that all of the men and women I know who left GCI did go to their elders with their concerns and disagreements, and most also went to Jim McC, either in person or by letter or telephone. The problem, however, was that none of us was able to take the process to the third stage, taking it to the church, because the elders controlled access to the church. The only recourse we had was to take it directly to the church, either by approaching people in person, or by writing letters.

The only way to take unresolved issues to the church at that time was through approaching people in person or writing letters. Today we have the blog.

The hang up elders had with Terry’s post seemed to be the conclusion he came to in his analysis that there was a type of “corporate pride” ingrained in the system. One elder even said that Terry’s post was the first time he had ever heard the accusation of “pride”. That is an interesting comment since that pastor had been one of those who ratified the Statement of Error in 1991 and #1 on that list is Prideful Attitude. It reminded me of what Larry Pile said:

Jim, however, became famous for his reply to any and all who approached him with their concerns: “Well, Brother (or Sister), this is the first time anyone has ever said this to me!”

So, Terry’s post is back up. You can read it and judge for yourselves whether or not we are divisive slanderers. Our intent is to point out error. It is to help build the church by correcting bad teaching and practice. Whether or not it looks like it, we are taking a stand out of love for God and his Church.

If you know us and think this seems “out of character” for us, I would ask you to consider why we would go out on a limb with our reputation. I would ask that you consider there may be two sides to the story and that maybe you only know one. If you have been contacted by an elder with negative information about us, I would ask that you talk with us before you pass judgment. Also, I am fully aware that there are some elders, particularly from non Bloomington locations, but some in Bloomington, as well, who aren’t fully aware of what has happened since we left (letters sent to our children informing them of how we were wrong, letters of rebuke mailed, e-mailed, and hand delivered to us, an elder walking out on someone close to us after 20 minutes who tearfully had some honest questions to ask because we had “hurt” him too much, sermons preached against blogs obviously referring to Terry’s post, shunnings, broken friendships).

Finally, as I recently wrote a friend, even though he put the post back up, I still feel kind of sad. It’s just sad to see people genuinely deceived and misleading others and thinking you are the enemy. I’m a people person and that just gets to me inside.

But, more than anything, I want to serve God and honor him. I don’t believe that a system that puts men between people and God is a God honoring system and it must change.

So, keep asking questions, keep seeking the Lord, remember we have the Word of God and the Holy Spirit to guide us. And, while advice from others can be a good thing, God speaks directly to each believer. We no longer have to go through priests, we have a high priest who is seated at the right hand of God. Jesus died, the curtain was torn, Pentecost has come. Don’t ever forget that.

Hebrews 10:12-16
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord:I will put my laws on their hearts,and write them on their minds…

Hebrews 1;1,2
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

I will continue to read decommissioned. I care about each of you. And, perhaps, will add a comment now and then.

In the meantime, take care and Happy New Year!

[Phil Pfau--divisive]

mamad, I’m glad to hear that Terry’s post is back up. I have really appreciated the thoughtful and reasoned way you both have handled all of this, and continue to. I know it has been very difficult for you.

I think a good idea for a new ongoing thread might be — how has this blog helped/hurt.

I think it is becoming evident that this blog has helped, as people are beginning to move on. the issues created by gc involvement are fading. I know they have for me. While reading Larry’s comments. I realized this blog was just what the doctor ordered.

Sadly, I find myself in just about the same position I was before ecc,

I don’t like church people. so many christians seem to find their identity in their church instead of in Christ. so I guess divisions will remain for now. we’re all brothers in Christ until we walk through the doors of a church building(so it would seem)

I should mention that I don’t think of the contributors to this blog as church people. I don’t know if that makes sense to anybody.

[exshep]

I read the full testimony. It is typical of member who were banging their heads against the wall trying to reason with the elders. From my own personal experience, it still seems to be a problem.

I have friends and leaders I greatly respect; however the way the leaders micromanage and control information is not exactly a good way to run a railroad.

[Anonymous]

hahahaha ex-shep you really kick my caboose.

[exshep]

So that is why I was feeling railroaded. That I or have a one track mind.

[nateswinton]

[Angry]

Mamad said:

Jim, however, became famous for his reply to any and all who approached him with their concerns: “Well, Brother (or Sister), this is the first time anyone has ever said this to me!”

When we initially brought up our concerns with the local pastors two years ago, this statement was also spoken essentially verbatum.

When we initially brought up our concerns with the Orlando & Columbus personnel a year and a half back, we were also given the above quote.

Perhaps the great philosophers Pete & Roger said it best - “meet the new boss, same as the old boss…..”

Angry

[AgathaL'Orange]

Evergreeners are not bad people, or even bad Christians. Some are our dearest friends. In fact, there are many intelligent, wonderful people there, and if ever the error could have been rooted out and the leadership culture changed, we thought it could have become a wonderful expression of the local church, and a long-term home for us. It would have required one last top-down decision—radical, wrenching and complicated to be sure—with leadership divesting itself of its current authority and reconfiguring in submission to the Holy Spirit through the congregation, still leading and equipping, but now functioning in proper order, as one with the whole body.

This paragraph from the original blog post seems almost prophetic.  If they had insisted on proper structure and addressing of grievances, they would not be where they are today.  

That, this, all of it, is so sad.  The people hurt.  The fallout is immense.


I’ve held on to my faith but most of that time, I will be honest, it was God hanging on to me and not the other way around.  I’m blessed to still consider myself a Christian and to have a church where I worship.

[EyesOnChrist]

I am beyond sad, mad, frustrated, irritated, irate, etc., that this has been going on so long.  I am reading this thread and so mad -- at the injustices that have happened and still are happening.  Why, why, WHY has action not been taken at a national GCC level on Evergreen?  Why hasn't someone stepped in? -- is it because all the white men are trying to cover each other?  Don't gloss over that question too quickly.

To those reading this that are wondering how people have experienced what you have never experienced at Evergreen, I caution you to just wait.  You will.  If you get close enough to the leadership and have an opinion that raises questions or concerns, you'll experience the wrath.  I know you don't want to believe it.  You could never imagine it.  We didn't believe or couldn't imagine it either.

There are good pastors at Evergreen.  The problem is the pride they have to not step out of themselves and listen with a humble heart.  To take it like a man and just listen.  Put aside your agenda. Shut your mouth and seek to understand when congregants come to you.  If they didn't care, they wouldn't come to you.  They do care.  Unfortunately, you have shut many down and out. 

[GodisFaithful]

I just found out very very recently that a lie was told about why we left Evergreen.  I don't know to how many people.

We were offended by some advice that we got from one of the pastors, advice that was not asked for.  We were told by another pastor that this advice was inappropriate and intrusive.

That was not why we left.

We had some questions and concerns.  We were asked to write these up and send them ahead of a meeting with some of the pastors.  We spent hours on this and supported our concerns with Scripture. 

At the meeting none of our concerns were addressed, at all.  We were told that we are on one mountain and Evergreen on another mountain and that we would never see eye to eye, and that we should leave and find another church. We had been with Evergreen since it's beginning. I don't think anyone would say that we were known as trouble makers.  We served a lot.

That was it.  That is why we left. We were told to leave.

As far as I know, nothing was said to anyone about that meeting or about why we really left. 

In the 1991 apology paper, it was said that leaving a GC church should be a "comfortable" experience. 

It is not comfortable when there is shunning and twisted lies.

[wisemind]

Which of the pastors at Evergreen are "good"? Haven't they all been chosen by the leadership to be pastors based on their behavior and how well internalize the belief system and follow "the rules"? They are all insiders, a brotherhood, so to speak, who stick together through everything. I haven't heard any pastor come forward with an interest in understanding what the victims experienced, how it impacted their lives, and how to have true, honest compassion for those who have been damaged.
In my opinion, they all lack integrity, wisdom, and LOVE for their fellow human beings. Their self serving pride and slippery maneuvering to cover their tracks and discount the experiences of the victims is glaring. This is a sick church.

[EyesOnChrist]

Wisemind,
You're correct. The insiders, the brotherhood, the allegiance, the GCLI groomed.  That's what I was alluding to, that anything brought up that might shake that pebble foundation is quickly dismissed.  

Part (or All) of what we're seeing now is the fruit of that lack of humility.  I kind of wonder if even at the pastor level, if any of the pastors feel like those that have left Evergreen do? Their hands are tied and bound to doing anything because what if they rock the boat?  What if they questioned what they were seeing?  What would that mean? It would mean they lose their job.

I don't think every single thing the Evergreen pastors have ever done has been wrong.  That's why I mentioned there is some good.  I do understand that doing some good things though while in the yoke of "band of brothers" does, in essence, make that good, in the end, void.

I am so pissed off that this has gotten to this level.  So many people have left.  So many friendships have been severed.  So much pain has ensued and is ensuing.  All because of pride.

GodisFaithful,
I am sorry for what you experienced.  May the mountain you stand on now be just where Christ wants you in being free.

[wisemind]

I've wondered, too, if some of the pastors have developed issues with GCC teaching and the way things are done. I also imagine that they can't raise their questions too forcefully or honestly or they will be told to leave, shunned, disciplined, etc. by the rest of the insider group. If they lose their job in the GCC, how will they support themselves? What will their lives look like post GCC? This is a scary unknown that can cause them to keep their thoughts and feelings hidden and keep towing the Great Commission line. It is also a truly emotionally damaging way to live, stuffing your gut feelings. It's like living a lie, in a way. It takes tremendous  courage and integrity to come forward and go against the status quo, rock the boat, and draw negative attention to yourself. That is why I am SO impressed with Scout (and the other victims, too). She had the courage and integrity to honestly tell her story and identify immoral behavior in people that have "power and clout". This gave some other victims the courage to come forward, too, and tell the truth. I am so proud of her strength and tenacity.

[Linda]

Just reread my post. So much for my high ideals of no more regular posting. Haha.

GCC/ECC is hard to shake. Especially when you get shunned, and your kids lose their friends.

I shall keep posting whenever I dang well please.

[Rebel in a Good Way]

GODTRUMPSALL, if we are all conspiracy theorists, why are you on this forum at all?  If GCC is above reproach and you believe this is a spiritual battle, why don't you let the Lord defend your organization?  If our claims are completely untrue and a result of our own "bitterness," why worry about it?  Why not just pray fervently?  Why not just ignore all the easily offended people on this site?  Why even try to keep up with all the different "conspiracy theories?"

I find it interesting that someone just used the phrase conspiracy theory on one of Suzanne's FB posts today, so either that person is you, or there is a possibility that GCC is framing abuse claims as a "conspiracy theory." By using that term, are you suggesting that many of us who are complete and random strangers to one another who have gone to separate locations and have come to conclusions about GCC on our own somehow joined together here to create falsehoods? 

I just googled Greg Boyd and cult, and his church doesn't have an entire website devoted to its abusive tactics.  He hasn't been written about in spiritual abuse books.  None of his former members have gone on to set up a cult recovery center based on their experiences with his church. He has articles calling him a false teacher and a heretic.  So, people disagree with this theology--that happens.  But there is so much more going on in this forum with GCC.  Yes, there have been claims of false teaching, but they are the ones that enable abuse (obedience to pastors). 

We all understand by now through previous posts that you don't believe anyone on here who claims abuse.  So...do you feel you are "fighting an evil" by coming on here to defend your church?  Or do you just enjoy discounting people's stories?  Really, I just don't get it. 

******************
If anyone is interested in a word study and cultural context of "bitterness," I highly recommend this book: Untwisting Scriptures by Rebecca Davis. The concept of "bitterness" if often misused by Christians to shut down victims.

Also, to all who have shared your story here, I believe you.

[GodisFaithful]

Wow God Trumps All,

Way to chew us all out, discount our thoughts and experiences, lump us all into one big bitter ball of bumpkins, and come across extremely holier than thou and know it all.  Do you feel better now?  You sound a little bitter.

Just for the record, when my husband and I talked to the elders at Evergreen we did not DEMAND change.  We were concerned and thought we would be heard.  We were concerned about some things in the youth  group that should not be happening in any youth group and we were hoping to be heard about that.  Our son was 13.  We also had some concerns about the new seeker friendly way of doing church.  Maybe you did not know that there was a big switcheroo when Evergreen started.  We suddenly went gang busters being seeker friendly.  We had some concerns.  We are reasonable people. 

And for the record, our family, although leaving Evergreen, found some great churches.  We are in a wonderful one.  We do not stay on the fringes.  We serve, we are joiners.  We are not murmuring, like never happy anywhere.  A lot of the bad stuff at Evergreen and in that movement we did not see until we got out. Some of the pain of it all we buried.  Maybe you cannot relate because something like what happened to us has not happened to you. And maybe if you do some day, you will handle it better than us.  Kudos.

And for the record, we did not go around asking people what was said about why we left.  I just found out when I reconnected with a dear friend. 

You can discount the hurts and abuses that people share here, but maybe shaking your finger at us and lecturing us and belittling us isn't all that helpful, for you or for any of us.

[Rebel in a Good Way]

Godtrumpsall, I didn't propose a theory.  I mentioned "a possibility" so please don't twist my words to make them say something they don't.  You are the one using terminology like "conspiracy theory" which Oxford defines as "A belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event."  If people on this forum are trying to be covert, we are really bad at it. 

I just found it odd that 2 GCC defenders used that same term within the same hour but I guess I will put forth the theory that it was a coincidence.

[Huldah]

GCC has said not a single negative thing towards Scout in their statements to the church or in any meetings.  They have given facts, nothing more, nothing less.  

Godtrumpsall, you're assuming that Evergreen is only giving facts. Evergreen's truthfulness has by no means been established. You may want to take a look at GodisFaithful's list of dishonest or misleading remarks statements made by Evergreen leaders. Now, you may not be able to verify everything in the list for yourself, but you at least know for sure that the most recent item--"We are in the process of hiring a reputable third party investigator.  (Turned out to be a lawyer that was representing only them.)" is a fact.

[GodisFaithful]

God Trumps All

To be more specific about your tirade against people on this forum, you said that "any person in a sound mental state" would just leave right away if they didn't agree with stuff.  So, we are all mentally unsound if we stayed very long.  Period.  That is your opinion of all of us as a big bitter lump.  Those words of yours are pitting you against us.  I thought that is what Satan loves (further down in your post.)

But then you are suddenly heart broken over our bitterness.  After your tirade against us, this does not sound genuine. 

You said that we "march into an institution." When I read people's stories on this forum I don't see anyone marching before the elders. I see, in some very sad cases, "shepherds" trampling all over their sheep, casting sheep away, excommunicating sheep, and yes, slandering them after they leave.  Case in point, Scout.  What was said about her when she left was a lie, it was negative, it was shunning of not only her but her relatives, and there were many witnesses.

If we are only a few, and you are thousands, why are you so mad?  Just brush us off like a pesky fly.

And about murmuring.  This was the first red flag for me at Evergreen.  Brent Knox got out his Moses/murmuring Israelites exhortation. I couldn't quite put my finger on it but I knew something was "off". I knew that he was asking for more control in my life than he should have.  This is where the cultishness comes in. It goes something like this: I am in the place of Moses, you are my peeps.  Follow me.  I am your husband as a pastor, you are my bride.  You need to check with me (if you are spiritual) before you date.  I need to tell you if you are ready for dating and marriage.  You should drop certain people off your friend list because you and I are on a Mission for God, and they are not committed enough.  You need to be in this small group and not that small group and I don't need to give you any reason for it.

So quoting verses at me about murmuring just reminds me of why I am so thankful I am out of the controlling, heavy handed from the top culture of Evergreen Church.  And by the way I have horrible memories of Mark Darling and Brent Knox excommunicating two sweet, lovely sisters in our church for doing NOTHING.  My husband tells me that they were helping someone move who was researching Jim McCotter.  They got caught in the cross fire.We were not told the story from our pastors. We were just told one Sunday morning that they were OUT.  But that was pre-Evergreen. Am I bitter?  No, I am appalled.  You should research the appalling excommunication history of this movement.  We did not know about it until we got out.  And sadly, excommunications over strange situations are not a thing of the past.  Others could speak to that better than I can because I have been out for a long time.

[Huldah]

Hiring an attorney, vs doing an internal investigation, is considered a 3rd party independent investigator.  The lawyer was not hired to represent them, the lawyer was hired to perform an independent investigation.  All of the complaining about them not hiring a 3rd party independent investigator is just false.  This is exactly what was hired by the board.  

That's terribly naive.

An attorney who is hired and paid by only one side, and who thus establishes attorney-client privilege (AKA secrecy) with that side, is by definition not independent.

The only way an attorney could be presumed neutral and unbiased would be if he or she were hired by a third party. The attorney herself can't really be considered a third party; okay, technically she is, but not in the sense that engenders confidence in both sides. She's beholden to Evergreen because they're paying her fees. She doesn't have the same duty to one party (Scout) that she has to the other party (Evergreen).

How is all this still unclear?