mamad's Story

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Huldah]

The investigator arrives at the workplace with a well-defined and articulated role - to collect facts about a specific complaint and potentially any related complaints that might surface. The investigator reports all findings back to the company and then exits.

See my point? Evergreen's lawyer doesn't report to both sides. She reports to Evergreen. Suzanne has no access to the findings. There's nothing to stop Evergreen from burying the findings, denying the problem (as is their track record), and announcing the issue closed to the satisfaction of all--just as they did with Scout's initial complaints.

[Huldah]

You are making far reaching assumptions about all GCC pastors.  This post is not directed solely to you though, but to the entire group.

And you're making far reaching assumptions about us. Example:

I am certain that many, or most on this site have a similar story.  They attended the church, and enjoyed many aspects of the church, but then after some time started to question how things were governed, and how things were being decided, how pastors were raised up from within, and on and on.  They approached leadership questioning  foundational precepts of the church, and DEMANDING change to things they did not fully agree with  because they felt their rights were being infringed upon.  And they are shocked when they have grievous differences in OPINIONS with the church and leaders, and continue to demand that things would change, that they were recommended to find a new church.

Nope. Not my story.

Nor was it a case where I didn't recognize that abuse was happening until I read it in a book, as you stated in your post in the other thread.

Let me ask you something. You and other GCC members have the same freedom on this forum to speak your mind as those of us who've left GCC. You come here to defend your GC churches, but most of you also take the opportunity to make a few aspersions on our character, motives, and honesty while you're at it. (I don't think I've ever seen one of you consistently write with grace and compassion, ever.) Now, to the question: Where, on any GC-operated website, are its detractors given the kind of freedom to tell our side, that you enjoy here on this site?

[Huldah]

I am sorry, you are incorrect.  Someone involved has to pay the bills

And Scout offered to split those bills, if Evergreen would agree to let the investigation be done by GRACE, a genuinely neutral party with an excellent reputation. Evergreen turned her down using the excuse that GRACE was "biased".

My definition of a 3rd party independent investigator is just what I said.

Then what do you make of the fact that this lawyer has attorney-client privilege with Evergreen and not with Scout? What do you make of the fact that the final report will be the property of Evergreen?

And if Scout has her own lawyer that is going to do the same investigation, or at least that was implied, does it even matter anymore?  

Yes. It matters. The only reason she had to hire a lawyer was to protect herself after Evergreen hired a lawyer. If Evergreen had chosen to use the services of GRACE or a similar organization, this wouldn't be an issue.

[GodisFaithful]

God Trumps All

You are presuming Scout does not have a certain amount of money because of a go fund me account set up by friends? You have no idea what money or sources for money she has. 

I thought you wanted to stick to facts and you are making stuff up that you have no clue about.

I think your comment is mean and nasty and negative and condescending. And not compassionate.

Your distaste for Scout oozes through your posts. 

[Huldah]

But Hulda, I could say the exact same of things that have been said about me, or anyone else that is still in a GCC church.  I also have not seen any grace or compassion consistently.  And your voices are being heard, many are aware of your site, and is read.   I would be interested in hearing your story.  

You're right that there's a lot of frustration on both sides, but I do feel that we've extended grace to your side that hasn't been extended to us. GC members are permitted to come to this, our refuge, and attack us here in our own place of safety. They get to have their say. Their posts are not deleted. GC does not extend the same courtesy to us. Not that I, for one, would care to post on one of their sites, but my point is that there's no reciprocity. GC wants to control the narrative not just on their own websites but even here among the people they've wounded.

I've noticed how deeply you identify with your church. In a couple of your posts, you've conflated criticism of your church with slander of you personally. I don't think it's fair that you came on here accusing us of slandering you in your very first post, before any of us even knew you existed. (In writing that, I'm assuming you're not one of the leaders at Evergreen. I may be wrong there. If you are a leader, it certainly explains why you would take remarks about the leadership so personally.) You may feel you haven't been treated with as much grace as you'd like, and you may be right. But go back and re-read your introductory post at this forum. It came across like you were loaded for bear. I think the responses here were actually pretty civil, considering.

I would be interested in hearing your story.  

My own story is told in bits and pieces in my other posts on this forum. To summarize, I was at Solid Rock in Columbus back in the 70's. I knew John Hopler and his wife before he became an elder. (I actually thought John was a pretty nice guy. I wish he had done something more positive with his life instead of devoting himself to GC.) John's sister was one of my housemates. I knew Dennis and Thelma Clark, but not well, just to say "hi" to in passing.  I was also friends with one of the "three sisters" whose stories appear in Part 4 of Marching to Zion, so you could read that for background if you really wanted to get that deep into the story. I still possess several letters that my friend wrote to me while the events in the book were happening, which support and supplement the book's descriptions. I go waaayy back, obviously. I left after a fairly short time in Solid Rock for reasons that included dishonest evangelism techniques (gaining access to students by pretending we were taking a survey); people who reported to the leadership on private conversations of other members, resulting in late-night unannounced visits by the deacons to "see how that conversation affected your thinking"; being told after I had started worshiping there that I was now involuntarily committed for life ("God put you in this church, and only God can take you out of it"); leaders who, when questioned on specific topics in the Bible, actually knew very little about the Bible outside of certain favorite verses and themes; the encouragement to drop out of college and take a menial job so we could serve God full-time ("You don't need a degree. If God wants a doctor, He'll save a doctor. If He wants a general, He'll save a general."); the constant lack of any downtime, with Bible studies literally night and noon throughout the week in addition to prayer meetings, door-to-door evangelism, and the sisters cooking for communal meals; the way we were discouraged from having any outside activities, hobbies, or friendships because such things weren't "profitable"; being gaslighted and treated with suspicion when I asked about the fake surveys or expressed doubts about a lifetime commitment. It's difficult to give you a picture in just one paragraph of how dark and disturbing the experience was. I left after about six months of that because it was so obviously messed up. For a very long time, though, I blamed myself for not being godly enough to live up to their demands. It took a long time to understand that it was the demands that were all wrong.

Someone may be tempted to say, "That was a long time ago. Things have changed." Yes, a lot of things have changed. For example, I don't recall ever hearing about an incident of sexual abuse of a sister while I was there. Things have changed, but not necessarily for the better.

And I, too, would be interested in hearing what parts of Scout's story don't add up.

[Gladtobegone]

I have to pipe in here.

Yes things have changed!   Back when I was there I and other sisters were reproved for looking too nice.  That proved we were worldly that we cared too much about our appearance. 

And for the record it was because of the Christians out of date clothing and lack of emphasis to their appearance that attracted me to Christ.

I have to say this emphasis on the outward appearance, being winsome etc to me seems to have a lack of faith.  Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit says the Lord (Zechariah 4:6).  God does the saving not our outward appearance or any of these bogus GCC standards

[GodisFaithful]

I don't mind saying it, maybe RickTRoll and God Trumps All are the same person.  As soon as R went away G started in with a little different angle but some of the same talking points ad nauseum and same attitude, just left behind some of the silly arguments that didn't work.  And I have a feeling G knows Linda, because wow does Linda ever get scorched in a personal sort of way. 

I just looked over their posts. 

Or one stopped, and the other took over to scorn and make degrading comments and try to drag Scout's reputation through the mud. 

Not pretty.

[Linda]

Godtrumpsall,

FYI, an attorney was necessary because ECC chose to go that route first. ECC gets to use donated funds and not personal savings to retain their attorney.

Are you aware that a clergy sexual abuse attorney can be $400 an hour? I’m pretty sure that victims who already are having a hard time telling their stories will think twice about coming forward if they now have to drain their savings or borrow money to do it. The gofundme effort helps free victims from the financial burden of exposing abuse.

For any reading this who want to help out, here is the link.

https://www.gofundme.com/helping-victims-of-mark-d039s-abuse

Godisfaithful,

Yeah, I assume Godtrumpsall knows me, but how would we ever know because he/she is posting anonymous criticism on the Internet. 😂😂😂 I’m not hurt by it though because, like John Hopler, I have chosen to ignore anonymous Internet criticism. 😂😂😂

[Gladtobegone]

Pastors wife or leader being coached is my guess? 

[GodisFaithful]

I feel sorry for anyone in a Bible study with someone like this. 

Ready to pounce on somebody who might be "bitter".

We sure got pounced on. 

[GodisFaithful]

Maybe the name should be I Trump All.

[Linda]

Amen to that verse!

Fruit is an interesting thing, isn't it? Just because fruit looks good on the outside, doesn't mean it's good on the inside. Appearances can deceive. Remember, man looks on the outside. God looks on the inside.

I look at this situation and see mixed fruit.

Too soon to judge.

[Gladtobegone]

This is a healing forum.  Most here I assume have been abused in varying degrees from your beloved leaders.

I am one that endured years of spiritual abuse.  Trying to control all areas of my life.  Using the Bible to control.

Didn’t Mark Darling call himself a prophet?  Did he not say the sheep will kill the shepherd?  Sheep want to follow a good shepherd not kill them. 

You need to think about what is shared.  Throwing out the bitter card never works.  Blaming those who have been abused by your leaders.  This is why we left.  And found a much better church and leaders that this sheep doesn’t want to kill

[Differentstrokes]

I have found incredible healing here. I loved my leaders once too, and rationalized all kinds of bad behavior and bad leadership because of it. I can't believe how blind I was, and i'm glad to have this place where i can work through it with the help of others who have been there too.

[Linda]

Godtrumpsall,

You speak of “hearing both sides of the story” and I am certain no one here disagrees with that.

I do wonder, however, if you have examined all the fruit of GCx and it’s leaders.

No one is saying the group/leaders are 100% bad. But in the interest of seeing the whole picture—getting both sides of the story, I think you will find some pretty bad fruit mixed in with some OK GC fruit. Many here have stories that speak of bad fruit.

Lives highly controlled.
Marriages highly controlled.
Education highly controlled.
Shunning.
Excommunication.
Charges of sexual abuse.
Lost friendships and resulting loneliness.
Rejection.

Those are some pretty rotten fruits of GC that some of us can see.

[GodisFaithful]

Linda, did you mean that for I Trump All?

Yes, my eyes are open to some rotten fruit at GC. Would not want to dumpster dive for it.

[GodisFaithful]

Oh sorry, thought you addressed it to me. 

[Linda]

Yes, sorry about that. I fixed it while you were typing. For some reason I typed you and not GodTrumpsAll. Catch me if I do that again.

[Rebel in a Good Way]

Ah yes, the fruit.  It is difficult to read people's stories (the fruit).  I just read one on FB about a single mother who was threatened to be cut out of the church if she didn't do what Mark wanted, and it was heartbreaking. 

I was directed to the following one because I know this person.  I watched this whole devastating thing unfold and have seen the consequences in their lives.  And it wasn't just the original user, it affected several others.  And I know someone will pipe in here "there are two sides to every story," but in the following situation I have read both sides.  I read all of the excommunication documents from these pastors, their definition of sin, their account of the events.  So yes, there are two sides to every story, but usually one of them contains more truth than the other. 

http://forum.gcmwarning.com/hellos-and-testimonies/forced-to-leave-because-of-suffering-anyone-else/

It is just not possible that people would fabricate these different stories that share so many common threads.  Nor is it possible that so many people would leave merely offended or having temper tantrums or whatever GTA likes the put forth.  The wounds expressed on this forum (and now other places) ARE THE FRUIT.

It's not like there's a tally sheet, where someone can lead 5 people to salvation but devastate the souls of 4 already in the flock, so it's a net gain of 1 and they are a winning Christian.  If one story on here was true about my church/pastor, I would demand that we halt all forward motion until we went back to pick up the pieces.

[Huldah]

In this thread as well as the thread Scout started, I pointed out that people from GC had complete freedom to come here and say inflammatory things to or about the members of this forum, while GC (by contrast) never allowed its critics a forum to comment, debate, or challenge GC on any of its websites. Neither you (Godtrumpsall) nor RickTroll chose to respond to those observations.

Now we come across this announcement from Evergreen, giving the reason they cancelled their town hall:

Comments from social media lead us to conclude that non-Evergreeners may come expecting answers we cannot give and turn this meeting into something different from what we intended.

Ha! They cancelled the meeting because their critics would have had a chance to participate! Are these guys predictable, or what?

Apparenty, independent third parties are welcome to be part of the investigation, but only if they're bought and paid for by Evergreen.

Okay, so maybe I'm just a hateful bitter disgruntled rude person who never even attended Evergreen, as charged  , but I've spent decades observing the tactics of abusers. They're all the same, deep down.