Namaste

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[namaste]

Hello to all-
I was thrilled to surf by the website yesterday evening to see if anything new had been added and find that there are now (gasp!) forums available.  :wink:

So...consider us introduced.  I look forward to participating in the forums.  While my e-mail address will certainly reveal my identity, and I have made no efforts to mask my ip address from admin, I am extremely concerned about personal privacy and highly prefer to remain anonymous for the time being.  

Unfortunately, that means that, at least for now, I cannot specifically share many of my personal experiences with gcm and our local church, as that will almost certainly reveal my identity to anyone interested enough in sitting around and trying to figure it out.

Like many of you, we worked *very* hard to actually free ourselves from the local gcm church, and now that we're more or less being left alone, the last thing our family needs is to get sucked back into it again by way of pastors contacting us and asking us to discuss things with them personally, etc. (kwim?)

That said, with assurances of confidentiality, I am certainly willing to converse with admin, or anyone else who is interested in e-mailing/speaking with me.

[exshep]

Welcome aboard. Read your posts.  Good observations on GC protocol.  Good read.

[namaste]

I haven't shared much about our specific negative experiences with GCx, or what directly led up to our leaving (because it would likely identify me).  But reading some recent GCx political blog posts has motivated me to talk about one of the biggest things that led to us leaving.

The massive focus on politics, including bullying from the pulpit to vote for particular candidates, truly rotted my soul.  Particularly troubling for me (leading up to the 2004 elections), was the implication that voting for the Bush ticket (and straight republican) was the only "Godly" way of voting.

What about the social gospel?
What about environmental responsibility?
What about honoring God's creation?

I was constantly at odds with the fact that our pastor would manipulate young women into standing outside to the most offensive, disgusting, and obnoxious anti-abortion exhibits ever, but they couldn't muster up enough volunteers to serve dinner at a soup kitchen.

I was ashamed that our pastor encouraged members to tithe more simply because he got a cut.

I was flabbergasted that it was insisted that we buy all name brand products for picnics (so we didn't look cheap), while doing absolutely nothing for the homeless and hungry in the area.

I was heartbroken that people in our church made fun of our family for being concerned about the environment, becoming vegetarians, driving a hybrid vehicle, and trying to lead sustainable lives.  We were actually mocked for teaching our children to believe that we had a responsibility to be good stewards of God's creation, and that all beings are worthy of respect as God's creation.  

It still makes me cry to think about it.

I can handle the fact that not everyone shares the same views I do on environmental and social responsibility.  But I cannot handle being mocked and made fun of for my views- especially when the reason is simply that they're politically incompatible with the Republican mainline.

I am pleased to see that environmental responsibility is getting more "airtime" in conservative churches today.  If I may, I'd like to recommend two outstanding books on the subject:

Serve God, Save the Planet: A Christian Call to Action (J. Matthew Sleeth)

and

Saving God's Green Earth (Tri Robinson)

Both are available through Amazon (you can even purchase used copies).

[Linda]

Interesting thoughts, Namaste.

While I probably have a different political take in many areas than you, I found just the opposite at our church.

In fact, when my husband and I taught Sunday School at our GCx church, I was disappointed in the choice of Group material for the curriculum because it promoted a social activist position regarding many issues, but was weak in teaching children basic Bible stories and evangelism. We had to keep censoring it to avoid politics and had to be creative just to get the Bible into the lessons.

I found an article that critiqued this curriculum which had the same take as we had and gave it to the pastor. I never heard back and the curriculum stayed in use.

Since then, I have wondered whether or not I was ignored because I was a woman, or, perhaps just because I wasn't in leadership (how dare I point out the weak curriculum), or perhaps this particular leader was just too busy to get to it.

At any rate, while I'm pretty sure most of those in leadership are quite conservative (as am I), they didn't seem to be much interested in teaching children from a curriculum that had a decidedly political bias that leaned quite a bit "left".

[Valley Noir]

I haven't shared much about our specific negative experiences with GCx, or what directly led up to our leaving (because it would likely identify me).  But reading some recent GCx political blog posts has motivated me to talk about one of the biggest things that led to us leaving. The massive focus on politics, including bullying from the pulpit to vote for particular candidates, truly rotted my soul.

It was worse in the 80s.  Not only did they endorse certain politicians, but the church distributed a newspaper loaded with nasty political rhetoric, and pushed members to participate in the distribution.  I thought it was a terrible witness.

What about the social gospel?
What about environmental responsibility?
What about honoring God's creation?

Over the years I've realized how myopic some evangelical churches (and I still identify as an evangelical) can be.  The gospel embraces everything, not just a testimony and a sinner's prayer.   GCI isn't alone among evangelical churches in deemphasizing the everyday, practical implications of Christian faith (like caring for the orphans and widows) in favor of evangelization.

I was ashamed that our pastor encouraged members to tithe more simply because he got a cut.

That may be a little too cynical.  One could attribute the same motive to any Christian preacher who teaches about stewardship, giving, and tithes; so I'm willing to give a GCM elder the benefit of the doubt.

Did anyone ever tell you how much the elders were paid?  That information was never available to us; nor was any general accounting of church finances available.  I found that disturbing.  In my present church, a copy of the budget is distributed to every member.  Our support of various social programs is there for everyone to see.  If our support of something drops, the senior pastor feels compelled to explain why, because the concensus is that more of our money should be going to missions/giving.

I was flabbergasted that it was insisted that we buy all name brand products for picnics (so we didn't look cheap), while doing absolutely nothing for the homeless and hungry in the area.

 :shock: Was the "brand name only" something that one member said to you, or was it policy?  Back in the day, we were cheap.  Most of us were students, so nobody had any money.

We were actually mocked for teaching our children to believe that we had a responsibility to be good stewards of God's creation, and that all beings are worthy of respect as God's creation.

Do you think that people meant it in a mean-spirited way?   People in my present church make fun of my profession, but I don't take it seriously.  I'll also tease the university-connected people for being overly intellectual.  My favorite recent phrase at church was "multigenerational learning experience" as a name for an all-ages Sunday School. :roll:   I couldn't help needling the pastor over that.

[namaste]

Yes, people meant it in a mean-spirited way.  This was a group of people who were believing whatever political rhetoric they could get their hands on regarding the environment (so long as it was hopelessly republican).  People made fun of us (in a very passive aggressive manner) for spending the money to buy a hybrid vehicle.  I'm not going to get into specifics here, but the frustration was that we had spent our money on an eco-friendly vehicle, and on other eco-friendly house upgrades, because we could have given that money to the church instead.

Specifically, there were references to the fact that the amount we spent on our vehicle could have put a person on staff (why were others driving new vehicles not given similar treatment?).  

You get the idea there.  The church did not like that we were spending money on things they didn't endorse.  They especially didn't like that it became obvious that we could have been giving more money to them.  I'm sure that's true of many GCx families, but it doesn't take a brainiac to figure out that PV-solar panels are pricey.

Let's see....

Yes.  There was a specific directive from the pastor/elder to buy name-brand only items because we'd look cheap if we didn't.  If we ever went shopping and got ready to pick generic chips, soda, etc. because they were cheaper, someone in the group piped up that we weren't allowed to buy the "cheap stuff."

Yes, the pastor said multiple times (as in, publicly during sermons) that he got a cut of the tithe, so we should tithe more.  Usually he'd try to pretend like he was joking after he said it.  Then he'd go on to say that since we were mostly a congregation of college students, those of us who were working community families should tithe extra.  :roll:

The worst part, is that it all sounded very reasonable when he said it.

[puff of purple smoke]

I was heartbroken that people in our church made fun of our family for being concerned about the environment, becoming vegetarians, driving a hybrid vehicle, and trying to lead sustainable lives.

What in the world were you doing at a GCx church? There's a "no hippies" policy in the book of government!!

[namaste]

I was heartbroken that people in our church made fun of our family for being concerned about the environment, becoming vegetarians, driving a hybrid vehicle, and trying to lead sustainable lives.

What in the world were you doing at a GCx church? There's a "no hippies" policy in the book of government!!

 :lol:

[G_Prince]

From a fellow vegetarian and environmentalist, I truly sympathize!  :cry:

I can just imagine them counting the $$$ in their heads when they saw the hybrid and solar panels! Good for you to spend it on what you truly believed in and not just caving to pressure.

[Valley Noir]

Yes, people meant it in a mean-spirited way.

I'm sorry.  I wasn't trying to minimize your experience.  I've found that my view of my particular situation has mellowed over the last 20 years.  What seemed malicious then, now seems like social ineptitude and laughable delusions of grandeur.

Specifically, there were references to the fact that the amount we spent on our vehicle could have put a person on staff.

Uh, yeah.  :?  I wonder how many people Jim McCotter could have put on staff, if he had stayed with GC* after he inherited his father's money?  Quite a few, considering the millions he's gone through in the interim.  But, hey, it's all for the Kingdom, right?  I mean Jesus needs a (bankrupt) Florida newspaper, a (bankrupt) New Zealand media empire, a  ski resort and a private jet manufacturer.

And here you are wasting thousands of dollars on a fuel efficient car and house.  No wonder people felt scandalized.

There was a specific directive from the pastor/elder to buy name-brand only items because we'd look cheap if we didn't.

Oy vey.  I guess if you feed people only the best snack foods, they won't notice the psychological manipulation.

Yes, the pastor said multiple times (as in, publicly during sermons) that he got a cut of the tithe, so we should tithe more. Usually he'd try to pretend like he was joking after he said it.

So I take it that GC* still shrouds church finances in mystery.  It'd be a questionable joke in any circumstance, but when people don't know how the pastor's salary is determined, a "joke" like that  begs misinterpretation.

[namaste]

I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to minimize your experience. I've found that my view of my particular situation has mellowed over the last 20 years. What seemed malicious then, now seems like social ineptitude and laughable delusions of grandeur.

No apology necessary!  In fact, I think now I'm going to start considering it a mix of social ineptitude and laughable delusions of grandeur.

[nateswinton]

At my GC church, finances were public, and the church was kept involved in how we were doing.  I didn't always agree with the budget, but it was kept professionally and was always public info, even occasionally in the bulletins and was (quarterly, I believe) snail-mailed out to church members.

[maranatha]

"social ineptitude and laughable delusions of grandeur. "

Hey, I think I resemble that remark :!:

[Valley Noir]

At my GC church, finances were public, and the church was kept involved in how we were doing.

Good!  I think that's one way the membership can keep the leaders accountable.  Even if the members can't exercise direct control, they can vote with their pocketbooks and/or their feet.  In my day, we were expected to give without any information as to how the money was used.

[lone gone]

I can understand the current dynamics of GC at this time.

Church growth and a Salvation Centric Message

Sadly, this North American model passes for authentic Christianity.

Some components of this model are the following:
The end justifies the means to attract listeners.
Salvation first, then rapid but shallow training in getting the message out.
Performance based measures to guide current efforts and to judge maturity.
Programs with cut and dried agendas which require people to conform to the norm.
Endless new programs for all the non-conformers that are constantly being discovered who cannot be herded into current programs.

The end goal is the appearance of success based on numbers and programs.
 
What passes for Christian maturity is actually a thorough understanding of only one small part of what a true disciple is.

I got out of GC in 1983 when it was transforming from a ragged band of disciples living in self imposed poverty (" flipping burgers for the sake of the Gospel") to a   "be-all-you-can-be-to-earn-all-you-can for the sale of the Gospel"

It was a wrenching experience. I have spent the rest of my life since then encountering both sides of these faulty assumptions and conclusions in my thinking. Whenever this happens I end up learning more of the endless mercy of God who takes me as I am and  perfects me as He sees fit to do.

I am very conscious of what Jesus said.... "many who are first will be last"
I'll let the righteous Judge determine who they are. I will also not impede anyone's efforts here lest I be found to be hindering God's work in their lives. That is why I am not actively opposed to any GC church or any other church as well.

[G_Prince]

The end justifies the means to attract listeners.
Salvation first, then rapid but shallow training in getting the message out.
Performance based measures to guide current efforts and to judge maturity.
Programs with cut and dried agendas which require people to conform to the norm.
Endless new programs for all the non-conformers that are constantly being discovered who cannot be herded into current programs.

The end goal is the appearance of success based on numbers and programs.

Sadly I feel you are dead on about this. The North American Church is bizarro!

[Truth Lover]

Speaking of politics ~ here's a good article about Christians and politics.

http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/12/05/a-post-on-politics/

[boboso]

Just had a discussion about Christianity and politics with a good friend this morning... this article is good stuff, Maynard.