oleo's introduction

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[oleo]

This is scary to me. we have attentended a GCM church for 12 years. our son was dating a girl and the pastor did not like it why? who knows. The pastor told our son (age 22 girl age 22) that he should wait till they were 25 to get married. My son felt he had met the woman God wanted him to marry. both sets of parents agreed. case closed right? No way!!! this pastor was very abusive to both of them. to the point that they could not worship at the church because “it was disrespectful to the pastor” for them to be at worship, This insane behavior extended to us as a family. We were harrassed and only stayed because hGod had not released us to leave our fellowship. We had discussions with John hopler who told us that it would be better if we left. That if it was him he could not forgive the things that had happened to us. We said we had already forgiven this pastor. We said if the pastor could not reconcile with us we would move on they requesetd another meeting (after over 16 Meetings with the pastors) we said no we had our answer and we would leave if that was what they wanted (We have it in writing twice that they wanted us to worship somewhere else) 5 months later we get an e-mail from Mr. Hopler wanting “closure” actually what he wants is us to go away!! apparently (specualation) my comments to friends about how we did not leave because we wanted to but because we were forced to struck a nerve with the leadership. I do not know how to respond to this latest attack. We are wounded we are hurting it is as if we suddenly had to go and find another family!! As disfunctunal as it is….its still family. Just when we are ready to move on John hopler e-mails us and wants “clousure” leave us alone already!!!!

thanks for listening

[Adam Hirschhorn]

Wow, what an ordeal. It seems like three is the magic number when it comes to the usually unspoken number of years GC wants its members to wait before marriage. Having literally been stalked to an alley in the middle of the night by my former pastors, as well as getting to hear the stories of others who walked away or spoke out at about the same time as me, I recognize all too well the “exit interview” strategy.



You certainly showed a lot of patience. When you accept the notion that of church as family, it fits the concept that you should try to work things out as much as possible. Hardly anyone expects that they could become so expendable to the GC “family” but time and again we’ve seen that those who don’t conform are shown the door–and I’ve heard pretty gruesome stories about how this is sometimes effected.



How is the aftermath? Did you take a chance on another church?

[Anonymous]

Meetings with the pastors) we said no we had our answer and we would leave if that was what they wanted (We have it in writing twice that they wanted us to worship somewhere else) 5 months later we get an e-mail from Mr. Hopler wanting “closure” actually what he wants is us to go away!! apparently (speculation) my comments to friends about how we did not leave because we wanted to but because we were forced to struck a nerve with the leadership.

GCx doesn’t excommunicate anymore. It looks too bad.

They ask people to leave.

Then, they ask those people to not talk. If they do, they are called slanderers.

They want people to go, but they still want to control what people say after they leave. Sometimes they even ask for agreed upon statements. They misuse verses on unity to persuade current members on the wickedness of former members who speak out to accomplish this.

This is spiritual abuse.

This blog exists and continues partly because former members realized that the only way to speak out and not be hit with e-mails from elders after they leave is to go the anonymous blog route.

Having said all that, I am sorry for you and your situation. Many of us have a similar story.

Adam, you mentioned that 3 years was the unspoken time members had to wait to get married. I agree with one exception, if you are a child of someone in leadership, you get the “fast pass”!

[Adam Hirschhorn]

I agree that “asking to leave” is the new way, but some young leaders have taken it even further, e.g.: the young woman who was told that her unusual laugh might be a sign she is possessed by a demon. The recurring theme of firearms in the seven-person household was one of my unsettling experiences. Eventually they want to meet with you one final time when they know you’re leaving, which is what is known in the anti-cult circles as “deprogramming”–only it is usually the anti-cult folks who are accused of such. Evidently GC has been around this particular block to know that this is a potentially successful tactic. Take for example the proof on this blog that Steve Nelson attempted to meet with us seven different times, all this after calling the contributers to GCMwarning.com a single angry slanderer lashing out because he himself was hurting–from his pulpit.



We get that they worry deeply about their reputation far more that the human beings who suffer at their hands. I understand this most readily because of my experiences as a homeless refugee of Summitview West Community Church. Tom Brown and John Meyer showed up in the night in the alley where I was sleeping in a van, not to offer me assistance, but to secure a recantation of my testimony on GCMwarning.com and a positive identification of the other contributing volunteers.



What should be most disconcerting is the relentless effort they put into reforming the thoughts of others. 16 meetings to convince you to stop a family sanctioned marriage or quit the church? How many meetings did Associate Pastor Walters attend and how much process did he endure before tendering his resignation at Summiview?



I get a sense of what all these meetings are about. I had a simple low-level meeting and they wanted three things from me. They wanted submission, humility, and enrollment in an outreach class. When GC doesn’t get these things, you get active attempts to obtain submission and create humiliation. That’s why people at Nate’s church have an aversion to ice cream. We’re going to correct you now; you know darn well what ice cream means. It’s like GC has an obscure gnostic gospel where Rufus relates “and verily since the Lord did ask us to Ice Cream, we did knoweth we were in a world of hurt.”



“Peter, can I have a word with you away from the others?”

Peter hangs his head.

“I think we should go out for Ice Cream tomorrow.”

Peter sadly agrees to ice cream and sleeps uneasily that night.



The next day, Jesus takes Peter for Ice Cream.

“Peter, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but a lot of the disciples have been talking about you”

Peter looks devestated.

“Well… Peter… they been saying you’ve been acting in a kind of… snake-like fashion.”

Peter begins to cry over his Ice Cream.

“I’ve been really encouraged by the fact that you want to be the Greatest Among Us. But really Peter. We won’t accept you acting like a viper. Remember that guy we left by the side of the road in Bethesda? I love you man and I don’t want you to turn out like that. Let’s pray.”

If it’s possible, Peter’s Ice Cream is now quite wet.



Yeah, that sounds like the GC Gospel I’m familiar with.



I’m starting to form the opinion that 16 meetings with the pastors over the same subject might constitute thought reform. But I’d like to hear more from oleo.

[oleo]

Wow when you see it in print 16 meetings sounds insane. They really wanted us to get angry do something irrational and leave so they could look justified in their treatment of us. My husband just felt that God wanted us to stay and stand, offer love and forgiveness. We still feel that we did what God was asking us to do. He is not asking us to defend ourselves. Or to lie to make the leaders comfortable. as long as we tell the truth That we did not go willingly and we love the people in our church The leadership has some explaining to do.

[oleo]

I should have said 16 ice cream dates lol! our comment is careful of the kool-aid

[Adam Hirschhorn]

Hey, I have nothing but respect for you for giving it that much effort. One thing is for sure, that having been so willing to resolve a problem without compromising the essence of your personal convictions, you have gained an insight into the situation which many people lack. But 16 meetings is still a lot. It may have meant some trauma for you which isn’t as clearly distinguished as a scratch or a scar. You may have even gotten some personal satisfaction at some point from feeling as if your point of view was being recognized for a change. It’s really a rather deceptive tactic; they let you talk so you feel you are heard, but the outcome remains unaffected.



I’m reminded of a successful associate pastor whose wife was persistent enough to begin a women’s ministry, only to arrive at a perpetual state of loggerheads with the lead pastor. The level of verbal abuse rose to the point when the other associates had to step in and stop it. But contrary to scripture, no one ever brought this before the church, and I believe to this day, the poor lady is still too intimidated to make a public statement about the ordeal. The associate pastor then had a horrible decision to make about his job and his marriage. Under Christ he made the right one and took his wife away from that awful church at the sacrifice of his lifelong profession, which was unaccredited by any university or bible college.



I hope your meetings weren’t like that. And I hope you still like ice cream

[oleo]

Thank you for your response. My husband and i always felt we were in God’s will and as strong believers God put us in a place to stand firm. As we were obidient to him he would prepare us for the next thing. Now we really feel released from engaging the leadership of our former church. we only pray for them and wait on God’s leading. we are blessed we do not blame God and our faith is strong….people, well were working on that.

[Adam Hirschhorn]

Oh, yeah, that. I’m still working on that. My friend and I are working on a band and we do a mean cover of Neil Young’s “Walk On”. I often feel as though people, even outside of my old circle, would like nothing better than to invite me to an old fashioned necktie party, myself being the lynching guest of honor. That kind of paranoia isn’t very condusive to forming new bonds. Focusing on things I like has been a trick of concentration at times, which has put the kabosh on some interesting conversations. On the other hand, I feel free to show my differences, which has seemed at times to attract some unusual characters into my life.



I guess I like people, in my way. I remind myself not to expect too much. People can’t read minds, and since I sometimes struggle with expressing the past, it leaves the present and the future. I hope in small ways with small actions that though I seem to be destined to be tomorrow’s pariah that I can touch the present with some small joy or enlightening thought. Still on occasion there are those who cross my path that feel the harder edge of my experience. I have little patience when I feel I am being decieved–such people only have two strikes with me. People who demand my trust are even more exasperating. I have very little trust and reserve it for people who share their thoughts easily and freely. I think that’s why the band situation seems healthy and promises some fruit from trusting. And it leaves me little time for rituals such as “Ice Cream”.

[steelgirl]

Adam Hirschhorn wrote:

Wow, what an ordeal. It seems like three is the magic number when it comes to the usually unspoken number of years GC wants its members to wait before marriage. Having literally been stalked to an alley in the middle of the night by my former pastors, as well as getting to hear the stories of others who walked away or spoke out at about the same time as me, I recognize all too well the “exit interview” strategy.

You certainly showed a lot of patience. When you accept the notion that of church as family, it fits the concept that you should try to work things out as much as possible. Hardly anyone expects that they could become so expendable to the GC “family” but time and again we’ve seen that those who don’t conform are shown the door–and I’ve heard pretty gruesome stories about how this is sometimes effected.

How is the aftermath? Did you take a chance on another church?

[steelgirl]

Adam Hirschhorn wrote:

Wow, what an ordeal. It seems like three is the magic number when it comes to the usually unspoken number of years GC wants its members to wait before marriage. Having literally been stalked to an alley in the middle of the night by my former pastors, as well as getting to hear the stories of others who walked away or spoke out at about the same time as me, I recognize all too well the “exit interview” strategy

I recall hearing stories of people who knew each other for a long time, but dated for no longer than 6-10 mnths, sometimes shorter to prevent temptation.

You certainly showed a lot of patience. When you accept the notion that of church as family, it fits the concept that you should try to work things out as much as possible. Hardly anyone expects that they could become so expendable to the GC “family” but time and again we’ve seen that those who don’t conform are shown the door–and I’ve heard pretty gruesome stories about how this is sometimes effected.

What are some of the stories

How is the aftermath? Did you take a chance on another church?

[steelgirl]

anonymous wrote:

Meetings with the pastors) we said no we had our answer and we would leave if that was what they wanted (We have it in writing twice that they wanted us to worship somewhere else) 5 months later we get an e-mail from Mr. Hopler wanting “closure” actually what he wants is us to go away!! apparently (speculation) my comments to friends about how we did not leave because we wanted to but because we were forced to struck a nerve with the leadership.

GCx doesn’t excommunicate anymore. It looks too bad.

They ask people to leave.

Then, they ask those people to not talk. If they do, they are called slanderers.

They want people to go, but they still want to control what people say after they leave. Sometimes they even ask for agreed upon statements. They misuse verses on unity to persuade current members on the wickedness of former members who speak out to accomplish this.

This is spiritual abuse.

This blog exists and continues partly because former members realized that the only way to speak out and not be hit with e-mails from elders after they leave is to go the anonymous blog route.

Having said all that, I am sorry for you and your situation. Many of us have a similar story.

Adam, you mentioned that 3 years was the unspoken time members had to wait to get married. I agree with one exception, if you are a child of someone in leadership, you get the “fast pass”!

I just remember not being allowed in a group until I was asked and then I really did not know too many of the people.

[exshep]

Boy, some things never change.  I must confess to a biting irony of the part of John Hopler regarding the marriage  and his control issues.  I have not checked New Song's website recently.  They did have a Celebrate Recovery group there. In the fall of  2005,  John was doing a series of  sermons on recovery. Mind you I only had the internet feeds and   friendly correspondance with a  brother of college age  via email.

The sermons on recovery sounded quite convincing. I have been in CR in Texas and  now in Ohio.  I must confess to a judgemental vent.  The meeting guidlines say "We are to support each other, not fix each other"  Either Brother Hopler needs to spend more time in working the programme or John Baker at Saddleback may want to consider revoking New Song's credentials.  OK, I am off my soapbox.  The irony of the thread got to me.

[steelgirl]

Boy, some things never change.  I must confess to a biting irony of the part of John Hopler regarding the marriage  and his control issues.  I have not checked New Song's website recently.  They did have a Celebrate Recovery group there. In the fall of  2005,  John was doing a series of  sermons on recovery. Mind you I only had the internet feeds and   friendly correspondance with a  brother of college age  via email.

The sermons on recovery sounded quite convincing. I have been in CR in Texas and  now in Ohio.  I must confess to a judgemental vent.  The meeting guidlines say "We are to support each other, not fix each other"  Either Brother Hopler needs to spend more time in working the programme or John Baker at Saddleback may want to consider revoking New Song's credentials.  OK, I am off my soapbox.  The irony of the thread got to me.

This is the one of the many reasons I am glad I moved on.  I might have spent too much time last night reading what I have not read off this blog.  I have met children of the first generation in GCM.  Many of them were proud they were children of this movement.  One of the chilldren of the first's generation family definately had inconsitences and it sounded not the greatest.  Perhaps McCotter's teaching could have a played apart in this difficult upbringing.

In addition, I knew one single individual who never really went home for any holidays.  I once asked her if she missed not being able to see her family and one time she said she might go away and not be able to come home so she might as well get used to it.  After getting information from this blog and other sources, I feel sorry for this individual.  Perhaps she was brainwashed earlier on in her experience.

Anyway, I have issues with churches that control their people like that.  5 yrs ago I wrote a very controversy poem that posted on another website.  Some leaders in the GCM were extremely pissed off I wrote a poem like that.  They did not get it.  But almost two yrs ago I submitted it to another website.  If you are interested please private message.  This poem must have been God's intention, even though I wrote it out of frustration with stuff as well individuals at the time.

[theresearchpersona]

oleo wrote:This is scary to me. we have attentended a GCM church for 12 years. our son was dating a girl and the pastor did not like it why? who knows. The pastor told our son (age 22 girl age 22) that he should wait till they were 25 to get married.

In 1st Tim 4:3 when it speaks about "forbidding to marry" the word "forbid" isn't just "absolutely disallow, but as far as I know means "to hinder"...interesting (see verses and context).