Riverview, 2000-2003

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[helloaaron]

I ran across this site today as I was trying to find someone who I knew from a GCM church several years ago when I was a college student at Michigan State.

Reading this site has brought back many strong and painful memories for me. I foolishly hadn't realized that so many people had similar experiences with a GCM church. It is encouraging to read that I wasn't the only one.

I started attending Riverview Church my freshman year. As many people have commented on, as a new member at a GCM church, you are given first-class treatment. It wasn't long before I was spending three to four nights a week attending either church services or small groups. It wasn't long after that before I was singing in the band and helping design their many creative sermons. I even designed one of the books that Tom Short wrote.

Even throughout that time, I often felt at odds with the church. I remember feeling angry when my friends asked if I had sought counsel on who I should live with the next school year. Or if I had talked with a pastor about where I should work. It seemed that I couldn't make any decision without first asking for permission.

I also had major issues with their view of the role of women. Others on this site have written about that in depth, so I'll concentrate more on what hasn't been written about as much -- at least as far as I can tell.

Soon after joining the GCM church, I confessed to my close friends that I "struggled" with homosexuality. To their credit, no one immediately rejected me. Instead, they affirmed that it was a sin just like any other sin, and helped me find a church group that was part of an ex-gay ministries organization called Exodus International. I became very active in that group, on top of all my other church activities.

It took me two years of very painful experiences before I accepted the fact that being gay is simply not a sin, that God loves a gay person as much as he loves a straight person, that I am just as capable of having loving relationships as anyone else in this world.

Of course, when I finally asserted myself and accepted my homosexuality, the GCM church basically kicked me out, and I lost my friendships. One close friend told me that he couldn't be friends with me because that would mean supporting my lifestyle. Other friendships dropped off almost immediately because all of their friends were a member of the church, and all of their social activities revolved around the church.

It's been more than five years since I finally accepted myself. I thought that I had moved past those painful experiences, but occasionally the memories still make me both sad and angry, especially because I know many of my friends are still a part of that organization. I know several others who "struggle" with homosexuality who were very hurt and some very damaged because of the way they were treated by the church. I'm trying to find some of them now, hoping that they've made it through OK.

Aaron Miller

[theresearchpersona]

Aaron, sorry about the unbiblical stuff you suffered through.

But you cannot seriously argue that homosexuality is not a sin, not from Scripture anyways. Perhaps it was good for you to get away from the stuff of GC, but when you did not repent, it wasn't unbiblical, nor unloving, for them to disfellowship you.

[amyk]

I applaud your strength to be who you are. I am on this forum for the first time. I hope that this is a place where we can be real and work through the scars from our shared GCM history. I disagree that homosexuality is a sin. That's me being real and I believe God loves who you are!

[everythingchrist]

Aaron,  Ok, so you struggle with homosexuality and now accept that it's not sin.  I'm sorry but it is sin, yet no worse, in fact less than say "gossip" which is one of the seven God hates.  However, it is all over the bible what the Lord says about it.  HE has never changed His mind and won't.  He is the same now and is the great I AM.  He can't change His mind on that...it's not in His nature. That's what it's about ..His nature.  He says our hearts are far from Him and His ways are not our ways.  His thoughts are not our thoughts.  I feel so bad for homosexual individuals because it must be very tough and heart breaking to bear. I also know that alcohol abuse and lying are sins.  We don't condone those. Gossip is a sin that most of us somehow think lies within the borders of "acceptable" sin.  Yet the Lord repeatedly says it's an abomination!  I only hope my pastor's wife could grasp that and how much she's hurt people with that sin.  Yet, all have sinned and fall short.  The tongue blesses God and curses man!

[Angry]

Welcome Aaron.  Go Green!  I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience at Riverview.  Yes, I have heard all too often that Riverview has some questionable teachings, and therefore encourage anybody looking at attending that branch of the cult to look good and hard before getting in too deep.  I also would like to state that not all people here are as close minded as the posters above.  You are who you are.  God created you with your own special skill sets for a reason.  All too often, people get caught up in being scared of things they don't understand and declare them as "evil", in an attempt to whisk these things away.  Coming out is a difficult time in a person's life.  To have your religous community spit on you at that time in your life is unimagineable.  My thoughts are with you.

Keep being who you are.  Please find Peace in the fact that gc* is just a cult - it's not like a real church took a swipe at you.  I think Jesus would love you just as you are.

Angry

[theresearchpersona]

Angry, I suppose it isn't explicit when Romans teaches that homosexuals have been given over to a depraved mind by God himself? Read it for yourself.

Here you are on a forum dedicated to dealing with a group that falsely accuses a bunch of people, and you go and accuse two of us like that when all we're doing is holding to God's Word. For your information if it weren't for that Scripture I'd probably have considered homosexuality fine: you're talking to a guy born into a house of democrats on the one hand, and one of liberal republicans on the other (or, at least, liberal by about the time I was born).

So if someone is prone to being a drunk, loving the kiddies, promiscuous, is that "just how God has made me", or like the other things in Scripture, declared by God to be things deserving of His wrath, abominations to Him, things that store-up wrath for those who do them, etc.? I'll answer before any snide remarks: the first option. We're all sexual, God just made us that way, let's all just go at it,  I suppose? (Oh yea, the same argument above about "God just made me that way" is used by the secular world to justify just that!)

Here's the Rub: neither does Scripture make any apology for declaring what God's judgment, nor will I for affirming and making it known: the same God who destroyed the inhabitants of what became Israel before Israel arrived, but vomitted Israel out numerous time for the same, who declared homosexuality an abomination to be punished by death, is the same one who sent His son affirmign the law, who's apostles teach "we establish the law", that all the world will be found guilty, and will repent and believe, not believe and "be true to myself", or any of that nonsense. Those who have no remorse for sin, who are not convicted, who do not repent, and who, when they stumble, don't despise it, are not Christians--they have no fruit of the Spirit of whom the word says gives us "godly sorrow that worketh repentance".

And if you don't know that dude, read 1 John.

One of the oddest features of our day is the equation of Biblical faithfulness with [close-mindedness and ignoraphobia]. Let a man stand with the Word, over against the fitful currents of culture, and he is damned as ["religious"]. (http://gcmwarning.com:8080/decomm/general-discussion/for-those-falsely-accused-of-pride/msg5947/#msg5947)

As obvious Angry, he had already "come-out" while at GC (made it known he was homosexual), and supposedly repented, but never did truly. And never does Jesus ever tell anyone in need of repentance that God will accept them as they are; in fact he tells one of his own twelve, Peter, "If I don't wash you, you have no part in me". He makes it a repeat theme, also, that unless we repent, we will not see the kingdom of heaven.

The very problem is "who we are", that person must die and a new creature be born, and I'm not talking about hyperecstatic disorderliness through social engineering, but broken and contrite hearts repentant and in gratitude for salvation by Christ from death AND sin.

Angry, "[p]lease calm my fears that a [professing christian] doesn't believe [someone] is wrong by not continuing in sin." Or right to be doing so, or about having done so.

[Concerned]

Aren't we all sinners? And sinning all the time? I'm not saying God will look upon homosexuality favorably or that homosexuality is not a sin, but what did Jesus say was the greatest commandment when he was asked? To love God with all your heart and to love others as yourself. It scares me to see Christians cast out others because of sin, especially homosexuality.

I co-led a men's group at my old church (not GCM) and one of the men confided in me and the other leader about his homosexuality. We went through all of the verses and had talks with him. But, my heart was convicted that I should not stop loving this man as a brother-in Christ or cast him out of our group. I felt it was up to God and the Holy Spirit to work in this man's heart in regards to his struggle and it was my job to be the best example of Christ I could be and have compassion for him.

Can't we do the same for Aaron? Let him share his GCM experience and show some compassion?

[jaywalker]

If a person were to tell me they were tossed out of GC for being an alcoholic, I would not condone their choice to become addicted to booze, but I also would not want to reject them as a person beyond God's grace.  So it is with homosexuality. 

I think we Christians are afraid to confront homosexuality on the same ground that we conftront adultery or promiscuity.  And I think this fear comes from believing the lie that homosexuals are born gay.  We find that intimidating, so we run away.

But what nonsense!  A guy who has one night stands with women every other night is no more "born" to do that than someone who claims to be homosexual is "born" to have sex.  Liking a specific sin does not mean we are born to do that sin.  Liking drugs does not mean we are born to do drugs.  Liking gay sex does not mean they are born to do that.  Doing anything is a choice. 

Just like giving up booze may be the only real answer for a drunkard, giving up sex may be the only answer for a homosexual.  This is not unfair or depriving them of a basic human need, it is the stopping of a sinful action.  God really does expect those who have never married someone of the opposite sex to remain celibate for life.  Really!

Church discipline is only applicable here if the doing of sin continues without repentance--drinking, gay sex, or promiscuity.

[Linda]

Jaywalker. I agree. I think you expressed that nicely.

[saved]

I am overweight.

It could be genetic.

But it also has to do with my behavior, and my love of food.

There are plenty of verses about why my overeating is sin.

I repent.

Then I overeat again.

It's hard.

[theresearchpersona]

If a person were to tell me they were tossed out of GC for being an alcoholic, I would not condone their choice to become addicted to booze, but I also would not want to reject them as a person beyond God's grace.  So it is with homosexuality. 

I think we Christians are afraid to confront homosexuality on the same ground that we conftront adultery or promiscuity.  And I think this fear comes from believing the lie that homosexuals are born gay.  We find that intimidating, so we run away.

But what nonsense!  A guy who has one night stands with women every other night is no more "born" to do that than someone who claims to be homosexual is "born" to have sex.  Liking a specific sin does not mean we are born to do that sin.  Liking drugs does not mean we are born to do drugs.  Liking gay sex does not mean they are born to do that.  Doing anything is a choice. 

Just like giving up booze may be the only real answer for a drunkard, giving up sex may be the only answer for a homosexual.  This is not unfair or depriving them of a basic human need, it is the stopping of a sinful action.  God really does expect those who have never married someone of the opposite sex to remain celibate for life.  Really!

Church discipline is only applicable here if the doing of sin continues without repentance--drinking, gay sex, or promiscuity.

As with Linda, well said. So keeping these things in mind,

I confessed to my close friends that I "struggled" with homosexuality. To their credit, no one immediately rejected me. Instead, they affirmed that it was a sin just like any other sin, and helped me find a church group that was part of an ex-gay ministries organization called Exodus International. I became very active in that group, on top of all my other church activities.

"Concerned", remember how Paul wrote the Corinthians about the man who was sleeping with his father's wife? Did he say "we just have to bear through and love-on this brother", no, he said "I've judged him already", then he proceeds to tell them he's handed this man over to Satan: they're to get rid of him. In this case, by helloaaron's own words, GC* did not just throw him out, but bore with him and tried to help. I would posit, hypothesize, their help was useless: you really can't bet on a person to be transformed  (Spiritually, in a biblical fashion) by false teaching, nor, to use a churchy term, "regenerated" (i.e. "born anew") if you're preaching a therapeutic seeker-marketed "gospel"; this is why GC* and its organizations like GCM are turning to "spiritual formation" and contemplative junk, their people just don't seem, in general, to be becoming salt and light--and with their unbroken record of not just utter neglect and ignorance of the Spirit, but I would say total anathema towards him, typical GC scenario:

"[short allusion to spirit]...[teachings that implicitly make everything "up to us", and the most important thing for God's {our} Church is leaders]"

This kind of thing totally mocks God's Spirit. : ( It is an utter lack of respect, regard, understanding, relationship with Him, etc.

Now, as helloaaron's own words continue,

It took me two years of very painful experiences before I accepted the fact that being gay is simply not a sin, that God loves a gay person as much as he loves a straight person, that I am just as capable of having loving relationships as anyone else in this world.

Of course, when I finally asserted myself and accepted my homosexuality, the GCM church basically kicked me out, and I lost my friendships. One close friend told me that he couldn't be friends with me because that would mean supporting my lifestyle.

And you know what? We all here know of cases of "shunning" people that's really been wicked: over people telling the truth and contending for the faith, of humiliating or angering leadership because they told those men that not only must we obey God first, but that those men are also subject to his word (like the situation where the pastor through the Bible across the room that someone here mentioned), and such things. But for someone to decide to assert what is sinful, and call it good (when the word calls it evil), they not only make themselves ineligible for fellowship, at least so long as they call themselves Christians, (that is, if I take "liberties" with the texts to be considered--but honestly we are commanded to have nothing to do with someone who even denies the Lord, that is, first claims then rejects). Personally I'm always more willing to hear-out the category of those who really may not have been Christians, were duped into cults, etc., so long as they don't continue claiming to be Christian: this because there are sooo many other gospels, Christ's, gods, etc., in America's "religious marketplace" (and even across the world nowadays). The caveat I have is that someone who holds-onto christian-like things, speaks of the same God, etc., whether or not they are Christian, are nevertheless, in some way, claiming it.

helloaaron here flat-out denied that homosexuality is sin, deciding what is explicitly declared an abomination by God to be fine and dandy, "just how God made me", which also sets-up God to be accused, like the man in Romans "why hast thou made me thus?". That is not okay, it is not acceptable, and it is totally contrary to the Word: Jesus himself prayed to the Father for His disciples (and all who would believe on Him through their word) that we would be washed in that word, of which He says "sanctify them by thy Truth, thy word is Truth" to the Father: and He's referring, as hard as it may be to believe in America where nobody seems even knowledgeable about how to properly handle it anymore--at least without being legalistic or reducing it to quaint and convenient use for whatever the speaker wants to say, rather than the text supposedly being preached--it's the OT that Jesus is referring to by "thy word".

helloaaron, I can't judge you (in the sense of final and ultimate condemnation, "damn"): I can declare what the Lord's judgment is about these sorts of things, just as we're commanded to: which is that "those who do not repent and believe are condemned already", as it's apparent and plain in His word. I am no ultra theologian, no doctor of the Church, no superb handler of the word, even, (working on it), but I can easily see those simple things, as have all Christians through the centuries. I am so sorry for whatever it was you were subject to that was not biblical in GC: I know how that stuff can be. All I can say is, however, as the word puts it: repent and believe (that is, fully trust). We are never told it will be easy--we're are promised suffering, in fact, "tribulations" is the old word for it. It can be miserable, it's not conducive to our own wants, lifestyle, etc., but the suffering, the washing in the Word as we choose to obey Him in whatever He has declared, and following after Him--even know we may be fulls, well, He promises great reward (even He Himself, the salvation Christians receives is not only in God's hand, what He does, but the believer receives Christ Himself!).

Look around: I'm probably one of the bigger critics on this forum of GC*, and yet I cannot stand to see them accused for something in which they were just truly faithful: it is not wrong for them to say "we can't have anything to do with you", anymore, either looking at what the Bible has to say about it, or any of the valid ways to apply it, or the earliest Christians writings on these subjects, or the writings throughout the ages (those latter things are subordinate to Scripture, and useful but neither primary nor to be accepted where they do not conform to God's word--as all regular authors are fallible).

I cannot know exactly how excruciating it is to be in the state you're in whenever you've denied it: I can say I know how excruciating it can be for a man in general to have no outlet for his frustrations, so in that I can empathize. That cannot override the Lord's commands, however, nor that they are not contrary to His grace, or that He is faithful, and where we are weak He is strong. So I can only plead, please repent, truly, and really trust Him, both with your life, and on His Word--do check to make sure people are well-handling that word, mind you, but trust Christ and flee the wrath to come, as the word puts it.

[Angry]

....and again I ask:

....why do some people get turned off by organized religion?

Angry

[Linda]

Angry, are you saying that "anything goes" in Christianity? I'm not sure I understand your point.

To bring this back to GC, I have a printout from Mark Darling's notes for a talk from June 25, 1998. It was a leadership conference. The title of the talk was "Creating an Atmosphere of Grace in Your Church".

He tells the story of a girl named Sally.

How would you feel to be a virgin again? I would give anything. She came to  Christ. She would call me and swear about how God was using her. She moved in with a couple of sisters. About a month later, she didn't come home one nignt. "I went to a party, got drunk, and slept with a guy." I knew this would be a defining moment. "Do you realize how proud I am of you? You went 30 days without doing something like this!" She couldn't believe it. This was not the religion she was used to. Jesus died for things like this.

Everyone struggles with sin. However, this does not mean that we should give sin a "pass". A pastor who would tell a member of his congregation that he is proud that she went 30 days without fornicating is trampling the grace of God.

I shudder to think of what other heresies my children heard under this false teaching.

It is only when you understand the wickedness of sin, that you can understand and appreciate the grace of God.

[Angry]

He's a young man struggling with his relationship with our Lord.  I don't think he deserves to be yelled at.

I doubt if Jesus would berate and insult him.

[Linda]

I think Jesus would say to the repentant sinner, "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more".

What I was confused on, is that it sounds like some were saying that homosexuality is not a sin. That's all.

[theresearchpersona]

He's a young man struggling with his relationship with our Lord.  I don't think he deserves to be yelled at.

I doubt if Jesus would berate and insult him.

No, angry, he is in outright rebellion against: he said nothing of "struggling", but that he decided what the Lord calls sin is not a sin, and he went his own way: his is a broad road, Christ's is narrow.

[amyk]

wow... this thread has pretty much convinced me to log off and never log back on to de-commissioned. This site claims to be for people who are recovering from legalism and spiritual abuse but this site is full of people who continue to spew it. Best of luck to you all.

[Linda]

This site claims to be for people who are recovering from legalism and spiritual abuse but this site is full of people who continue to spew it.

The idea that sin exists, that God is Holy and turns his face from sin is a fundamental belief of Christianity. The idea that God is Love and in His mercy made a way for sinners to have fellowship with Him is also a fundamental belief of Christianity.

How loving would I be if I knew that someone was continuing in sin and didn't try to help them find forgiveness through Jesus Christ?

I don't know of anyone posting here who believes in legalism (assuming you are using the common definition of redemption through works). The law exists to show us our need for salvation--to point out our sins. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins.

Jesus said, "Go and sin no more." He didn't say, "Not to worry, no one's perfect, I love you, keep on sinning."

[Genevieve]

Thanks for sharing your story, Aaron. I'm sorry you were treated that way. It's funny how you think you're over it and then it just comes back again. I hope you stick around and work through the pain, confusion, and disillusionment with the rest of us.

Angry, thanks for your responses. I don't feel like I know anything for sure anymore, and I appreciate you focusing on love and compassion rather than beating a dead horse about what is or is not a sin. Not the point! The fake friendships, the total immersion, the shunning, that's the point.

Amyk, you'll find all kinds of people here, though some of us aren't as vocal as others.

[plaidcymru]

My heart goes out to Aaron. I dont know about any other teachings of Riverview Church,but their initial reaction to his confession that he struggled with homosexuality was correct. That it is a sin just like any other sin. And not be in a rush to kick him out or discipline him,but attempt to offer him love and minister to him. That they referred him to Exodus International was smart. This parachurch organization has so far been about the best equipped ministry in relation to homosexuality that has ever existed. Im just sorry that Aaron did not stick with his attempt to move away from a homosexual bent. No one is born a homosexual. It cannot be because God would be a liar if that were true. Homosexuals are made in childhood and adolescence from a complex set of environmental factors and circumstances. Often,there is an absence of or some kind of a disconnect from the father. A boy in particular fails to identify properly with his father or with other males in a healthy way. When this need is not met,it gets twisted and becomes sexualized as that male desperately tried to find a way for acceptance and connection with other males. An attempt has to be made to repair that. There are men out there that were living as homosexuals who have gone on to serve the Lord either in celibacy or in some cases,they have been able to marry and have children. The church as a whole has done a terrible job of ministering to homosexuals. The balance between hating the sin,but loving the sinner is not always easy. An individual that is struggling with homosexuality,but recognizes it as sin and agrees with what God says about it and is interested in rejecting and resisting that inclination should never be shunned or kicked out of a fellowship. They need to be loved,helped and ministered to. Those that reject Gods Word and say that God is wrong and that he is ok with their lifestyle and they are bent on going on and living in that lifestyle are in rebellion and should not be allowed to bring dishonor to a local church fellowship. I speak from experience because I am a 43 year old man and I have struggled with homosexuality since I was a teenager. I hate that I have this orientation. I have always hated it. I believe in Gods Word and I know that it is sin. Confessing it in most churches is probably not a good idea. I was told that I was not saved. I was told that if I really had the desire,those "feelings" would go away. I was told to read the Bible and pray more. People that have not experienced it just do not understand it. What really upsets me is churches that terrify someone by being so sure that they are not saved just because they have homosexual feelings. There is nothing in the Bible that teaches that it is impossible for a true Christian to struggle with certain sins. Many churches put an exclusivity on homosexuality and try to say that it is one of the ones that a true Christian could not struggle with. The Bible does not teach that. I believe that it is definitely possible to engage in homosexual behavior and still have trusted Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. David was saved when he committed adultery and had a man murdered. Aaron...dont accept your homosexuality. Seek out a Christian counselor that will tell you the truth. Go back to Exodus International. You dont want to end up like me. There is a season of pleasure in that sin when you are young. But when you get old and no one wants you anymore...the youthful beauty starts to fade and the body dont look so good anymore,a terrifyingly lonely existence awaits you. Im 43 years old with no wife and no children. My biological family are all passing away one by one and when they are all dead,there will be no one left for me. I look towards my future and I cannot tell you the terror that I feel in my heart. What will I have to live for?