Staying But Struggling

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[everythingchrist]

I attend a Great Commission Church. What's interesting is that they have been involved in plants,  but fail to really say if they officially belong to the GCC.  I've read the posts and agree with a great deal of what is said. 
My concerns are that (1) I believe they are more interested in making converts to their opinions than disciples of Christ.
Our pastor downloads his sermons (plagerism?), so I don't believe he studies the Word enough to allow the Spirit to lead him at all.  He is seldom with his family, always at church or "counseling" someone.  The leadership tresses "serving" above anything else. Gossip from the pastor's wife is rampant. She is constantly "praying" for someone with vast details that are nobody's business.  I've discussed this with her, but I get the deer-in-the-headlights look and "they're in our body, so it's everyone's business" answer.
Spiritual gifts are not up for discussion.  No elders, no deacons.  There is a ridiculous tendency to judge everyone's salvation as genuine by measuring somehow is beyond me.  I've questioned, debated and been talked about behind my back  because I don't accept ridiculous comments such as "You're not saved if you are not sharing the Gospel on a regular and consistent basis." 
My husband wants to stay because he thinks there's nothing better.
They criticize every other church in town, and are isolationists in that sense. 
I'm lonely, worried about our children growing up in a church that is "man-centered" by all visible evidence I see around me.  If you don't attend every event, even baby showers, you're frowned upon.  It is really our pastors wife who seems to run the show behind the scenes.  They've been kind to us, but I wonder if they actually understand that our relationship with Christ is key. 
They seem to issue encouragement towards large families, criticize (behind our backs) those of us who do not homeschool, and brag about how much their blessing everyone. 

[eternity]

Hi,
Hey--it's going to be okay.  You found this group, right? <g>  I do not know where, geographically, you are, but I will share a bit of what I have learned.  It's more psychology than theology (hm...if I found enough scripture to back it up, could I start my own cult <g>? NOT like it would ever ever happen! But a little humor sometimes is healthy--)

Here are a few thoughts...(and I will say that I am OLD...and, thus...WISE <wry look>  okay, the OLD part is true. The other I can only say is from experience...though my sisters have grabbed onto it and used it. I will say -- those of us who have been involved in GC types of churches could really be proud of the fact that one thing I have noticed--we are catalysts for change. We are very smart. [maybe a bit naive, but hey--our greatest strengths are simply the flip side to our weaknesses...and our greatest weaknesses are the flip side to our strengths....]  So--the loyalty you and your husband feel--wow.  Be awed, okay?  It's simply sweet and dear and tremendous.  (okay, so maybe--a LITTLE misguided [my opinion, only, okay?] but -- were you not loyal and honourable--you would leave in a heartbeat if it was not healthy for you.

Which leads me to the next point:  My 'sweet Episcopal priest' who was the first I shared some of this with--said to me what I consider Words of Wisdom (um, okay--sounds like the name of a book, right?)... "...I think what G-d wants is for us to be in life-giving situations.  was it life-giving?"

Oooh--something fun to look up and ponder!  (isn't that one of our greatest strengths, too? <g> Oh, to be a part of this tribe is so much fun!!!)

But here is another thought:

Life is about matches.  You will match to what you focus on--like when you are pregnant or buying a certain car--all of a sudden, you see those things more and more.  It's a bit like when you are in a situation and you simply cannot believe that there might be ANY other good churches in your area.  Or people.  

OH--but--you are here.  Life is about matches.  This group, seems to me (and this is the first post I have posted ever...feel free to contact me offline...)  is about becoming healthy.  Begining (I also think-) at a very low point (sad sad sad to say--but I found it at the death of one of my sisters and I think I was matching to the other low low point in my life--that of the GC time <wry look>--and started thinking of it--and wondered what happened to some of the people in it--and 'poof'--found this site. Was discussing with my teenage son tonight about why he was NOT going to go to a church lock-in at what MIGHT be a GC-sort of church -- for when I found this site a number of months ago and discovered how so many of them had changed names, etc--I looked up my CURRENT community and discovered THEY ARE HERE!!  (I am not safe! My child is not safe! My neighbors, friends, scout folks, etc are not SAFE!  ACCK... oh, okay. I'm learning again to trust the Universe...oh, I mean G-d. [I'm actually going to a Jungian thing in a couple of weeks where they are talking about what happens when the "Death of G-d Experience Occurs" [or something like that--I think it will be rather fascinating as my nephew is in the 'I hate G-d' mood right now as my sis died last year...AND "GOD"  was a bad word for a while for me, too, but for different reasons.)  Anyway--apparently there are GC branches here.   Contrary to what your world believes, there are LOTS Of living breathing wonderful churches.  If you don't want to wander into one of the more traditional living and breathing ones (for a while, the best connection I had to G-d was in one of the ones where I could be connected without being consciously connected. Not that makes much sense. I don't think. Maybe it does. To someone. <wry look again>    BUT--look up the 'emergent church'.  LOOK at what is happening in the evangelical world AND in the non-evangelical world (ooh, do we all have a function and purpose in the Body of not just Christ, but maybe even G-d?)  It's awesome.  

If your husband is a good guy and a wonderful husband--then fine. Stay with him. But, find another support group in your community. I absolutely guarantee you that IT EXISTS.  (please trust me--you CAN be a match to it!!  Practice my matching game [I just introduced it to a guy who works for me--and he's Catholic <g> but wants to grow in some areas...and needs to overcome some subconscious blocks. This is more neurological stuff than anything else--read Anthony D'Amasio's stuff--)  The Matching Game:  Pick one to three things that help you get to a 'happy place' when you see or think of them. For me it was sailboats to start with.  Then--whereever you go--look for those things -- and do NOT leave until you, on a conscious level, find one of them. It might be in a picture. A photograph. On a box. On a greeting card. (I took one of my sisters into a store and made her look for her matching happy thing when she was going through a rough patch--and we walked around that store three times until she found it--a waterfall for her. I found several bec I had trained my subconscious <g> but it was NOT about me. And now she's able to 'match' to awesomeness much more easily...)   Play with your brain and then tell your brain to 'match' to a positive, life-giving support group.  

It's an experiment.  (You are bright 'cause you ended up in a GC group. So, you probably have that science-oriented, thinking brain in you <g>)

I have no idea where you are. I'm a bit worried this post is a bit longer than it ought to be. <wry look>

But, know this--you are NOT alone. And--you live in an awesome TIME.  We have <drum roll> ... the Internet. We have friends from ALL OVER THE WORLD.

I wanted to answer lots of these posts (I remember when Jim McCotter left--and know why <g> and the damage it caused...it was right before I mustered my wits and left...okay, the 'how' one leaves is also another story. I was not able to just 'leave'...I had to do what I will also write about in my Matching Game Book if I ever write it <g> as it applies to so much in LIFE...and that is to 'soften the approach'...if you cannot leave--completely--how could you leave just a little? ... but that is the topic for another day. If I ever post here again!  Which I might not ever do since I have had a talk with my son about stuff. <g>)

As to the children--my kid is simply one of the most incredible people I know. He takes my breath away--and he was born and raised after his dad and I left the GC church...  I'd put him 'up against' almost any child in terms of the 12 points of the scout law <g>--he's incredible. AND is being raised in a public school. (Of course, I told him in the beginning that if he did not do well that he'd be in a private school really fast <g>.  He absolutely loves his school, his friends, his world. AND believes in the purpose and function of public education. -- how many other kids could articulate the caregiving aspect of the United States, I wonder?  But--he not only wants to be happy, successful, productive--but wants the Other to be so, too. [shades of Levinas! Or, um, that Christ-centered life we talk about!]  BUT--he does NOT live in Fear.... and knows how to interact. (we, um, did have to deal with MY fear about whether or not the weird churches in our town were going to come after him <g> but that is MY issue, not his!)  and hey--I'll do that mystical magical thing and light a candle for you, too. (it's part of my Epsicopal church stuff-<g>--helps the prayers to be focused and more powerful. Or something like that. I love being relaxed and able to TRUST this Creator of mine to have a sense of humor!)

Hugs from afar!!


AND--My best to you--
and know you are sent care and concern and prayers and positive energy and all of that stuff from
Eternitytime

[theresearchpersona]

[modified:]

Hi "everythinginchrist",

I'm glad you're able to recognize what's man-centered, and what's God-centered. It's also unfortunate that you have a man unqualified to be a pastor (isn't in control of his gossipy wife, doesn't study the word, etc.). The download-the-sermon kind of thing is really common nowadays (Rick Warren actually encourages people to download his own, even, as part of his Purpose-Driven franchise; and various others do similarly, and he even tells people they ought to do it, it'll save them time, why should they come-up with their own stuff, etc.!).

Also, I'd like to encourage you to ignore <s>the poster</s> some of the comments by "eternity". The emerging/ent "church" is a massive movement of unbelievers making-up their own christ(s), it is centered upon the world (its interests are consumed with it), it denies holiness, has leadership that denies that we even know the gospel, says Christians should shut-up about homosexuality, etc.. As a movement many notice that whenever a person decides to critique it the reply is "we're too diverse to be pidgeon-holed into description", or there's a temper-tantrum, which just goes to show there's an incredible lack of being upfront or upright (actually I think various GC churches either are, count as, or heavily subscribe to, various aspects of the emerging/ent paradigms).

Much of the emerging/ent "church", even the very popular parts/sorts that evangelicals are listening to (whether on doctrine or adopting practices or both), even denies that the Bible is God's, saying it's rather a product of man, such as Rob Bell; there is, for instance, a series called "Nooma" where he subtly indicates things like "I'm tearing down the foundations" (that is, of Christianity), such as with his video of deconstructing a building from the first floor up (if you can't blow-up or implode a building, you destroy the building, sink it some, destroy the new first floor, sink it more, etc.). Thing is, no other foundation can be laid but that which has been laid. Here's a pastor who actually shows a clip from Bell and discusses the particulars about his thinking in that vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wSAEezBc3s

As for ungian teachings, they are occult; that "eternity" would partake in them makes me more than wary. "eternity", no offense, but from what you've posted, I reprove you, and though I'll take flak for this, I have to say that in my book you are entirely unwelcome here [(repeat, in my book not necessarily in others')]: your words do not taste like my Lord's. That you'd even <S>suggest</S> imply this gal might even ought to leave her husband tells me you are not my sibling, and I think you are an antichrist: episcopal or no church, if your has succumbed to the mysticism of the emergent heresy, it's not a church. Life isn't "about matches", this person married the guy, and she'll have to stick with him for in reverent, honoring, trust of her savior Jesus Christ.

"everythinginchrist", do also make it clear to your husband that you disapprove of what's going on in your church, and do bear your witness also to him, and if you must get out of it (from any participation in GC, not away from your husband!): if all that's happening at that church does not bear the marks of the church--or if it's counterfeit, etc., then it's not a church, it's an anti-church, it obscures Christ, etc. You bear guilt for that in which you have participation, whether good or evil, and if you're unable to reprove it (likely in GC which only feigns humility, as people keep figuring out), you should really look for a faithful body to have fellowship with and where the teachers feed the flock.

It took me a while, but I finally found a little congregation that wishes to give the Lord His glory, and preach Him not itself; it understands that He (not the church) is the hope of the world, and it's hell-bent on honoring him (irony intended). I avoided probably hundreds of churches in my area that on the surface appear good, but which are programs-based, social-based, shallow, etc. (sadly too). and looked for one that centers on the Lord's word, prayer, mutual edification/encouragement, fellowship in the apostles' doctrines, etc., and it took a while (that is, once I even started looking: I had to lick wounds, so to speak); I even avoided what are likely sincere fellowships that have bible-based stuff, but which are run and attended by a bunch of amateurs who are unqualified, inexperienced, and perhaps experimenting not in the sense of experientially living-out the word, but which just think they can kind-of opine on the Scriptures or somewhat know how to handle them and so preach some topic, but which don't really have any firm foundations in doctrine and handling of the word: some of these things really have a lot of admirable qualities etc., and yet they still didn't really seem to grasp and match the instructions for ordering the church, qualifications for pastors, etc..

Lone, do forgive me for failing to be gentle. As for the teachings of the emergent church, however, it is another gospel: ANOTHER GOSPEL, and

I am not a moderator but I can tell you that this forum is not a church, nor The church. Unbelievers are welcome here. Please be a good citizen.

Unbelievers fine, but those professing to be believers and advocating those who bring other chirsts? We are not even to greet those who bring them (other gospels); and we can generalize the movement of emergent/ing, with general accuracy there are two common themes that can be found in nearly every single participating body of it, one is another christ is taught; two if not, then one finds repeatedly that it teaches friendship with the world. As that much gentler pastor says in the Youtube video, it is "masquerading as Christianity". That is why I repeat, that's why I get the way I do with those who come here saying they were Christians but now deny Him, or are Christians but love and hold to other Christ's, "in my [I did not say 'this forum's"] book, you are not welcome here". That is, "I do not welcome you, get out you wolves and deceivers". Forgive me, but these people, who would recommend the teachings of "gentle" devourers of the hurt sheep and lamed and sick and poorly fed in the name of a fuzzy "love" or "healing" or whatever, they bring out my worst: my shouting of GET OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT. I cannot help it: I don't know if it's just immaturity or if it's overzeal, but I've seen even recently an event where a very gentle pastor point-blank tell someone "leave you devourer of the sheep".

Too bad more in GC didn't say the same to the vision-casters posing as Church leadership in GC: who ruin the lives of young people and take advantage of them for their own purposes, to preach their own cleverness, methodologies, etc., and not Christ; who subtly alter words and maul Scripture and poison those who are our brothers and sisters therein. The problem there, of course, is that there's no way to do that: people have been taught to cover their ears, etc.. But when a hurt sheep who's frightened and in a bad situation and gives-off the all the symptoms of what historically Christians would call either an invalid church or assembly of false worship comes here and the first reply she receives is from someone who speaks like a demon and recommends all those who would subdue Christ, re-define Him, and make God all about men, destroy the Scriptures (if they use them at all, it's for their own purposes), I wish I could scream loud enough and with all the might rage of the Father at those who make opportunity to lead deceive his sheep, however sincere their delusion may be, "be silent".

How is this not doctrines of demons?

sorts able to step back and look at ideas and thoughts without fear of contamination.  (Our G-d is a protector <g>)

My Jesus warns us to beware, that Satan's ministers will deceive, if they can, even the elect. "Church" is related, you know, it means "the chosen ones" or "called out ones" (as "elect" is from the Greek eklektos meaning "chosen/called-out"). Maybe eternity could be just a deceived sheep him/herself...but that whole post screamed otherwise, presented as loving, but there is not light in it, no matter how many candles s/he lights.

I know this is a public forum, but it also a place where Christians gather, in and outside of GC, and specifically weak Christians who are often unfed and deceived and poisoned, or all those and downcast and confused and shaken and cold and suddenly alone, etc.; I don't wish them by association to be left unwarned about the posts of people who think this is all a game, who mean by "use their brains" that those they're defending and recommending are okay to be trying to build with their own wits their own new foundations and who assail and denigrate the entire witness of Christian history, who build straw men, and even now make war against saints trying to supplant the Church in order to bring about their own visions of society and "transformations". That is the emerging/ent church, in a nutshell. That is much of the unbelieving episcopal church in America, and I have much experience with both: I was baptized episcopalian in a church wholly tolerant of gays, and I have conservative beaten-up unfed friends who are in the emergent Church right now who I'm working to get out of it, though they're halfway there, such as by attending other Churches to actually get fed, and desperately seeking teachers who teach the truth--I don't think sheep can't help it, and that's why the sheep are predisposed to leaving GC: even as they try to satiate themselves on the artificial subsitutes, however near the truth it appears to be, they just won't be able to fill that void, and so eventually there's a good chance many of them might leave, though the relationships and other things try to hold them, and yet also there's a good chance that anyone who does leave...can fall into worse traps that make themselves appear very inviting.

Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFCEs0gHrrA&feature=related

[lone gone]

TRP,   this is flak.... boom.

While I respect your story and your opinions, I do not respect your telling one person to categorically ignore another.

Allegations such as   ""s/he can't even think", "Jungian teachers are occult", "the emergent church is a massive movement of unbelievers"  are such broad generalizations that they distort the truth.

And statements such as   "No offense, but from what you have posted I reprove you." ( ?? as if to say "I am not offended or not intending to offend but you are wrong and stop talking") are not welcome on a public forum when there are resources by which you can privately reprove someone first.... such as God's word indicates.

 "I have to say, in my book you are entirely unwelcome here"  is what you wrote. I am not a moderator but I can tell you that this forum is not a church, nor The church. Unbelievers are welcome here. Please be a good citizen.

[eternity]

Thanks for the emails!

!) thanks for the protection and the care
2) RPG--wow. Nothing like being 'salt' and showing love to your relatives!  Or, um, maybe it is an inability to have and see how grand and glorious our G-d is?  But, maybe it is that if you are looking at a fish in an aquarium that you only see the tip of the nose...and your relatives/friends/emergent church are able to see either one or the other sides of the fish or even the tail or even able to step back and see a couple of dimensions of the fish at the same time.  Maybe maybe our G-d is bigger than we can imagine...

3) I wonder if those of us on our journey from GC land hear someone/read something that we still immediately swallow it.  I have had to step back and examine almost ever belief in my belief system to see where it came from. I can go back to my notebooks of notes and see where there were shifts of logic and how they led the whole group astray.  But, the fear of now taking in what someone else says--I think tha was part of the GC world, for sure, but I'm not there any longer. I'm very curious and am looking for ways to help my sweet dear nephew process the death of his mom...who was the most wonderful mom and sister and friend and ...   Pious platitudes don't work in some situations.  I also went through a period when the word G-d was, to me, a BAD AWFUL word.  It was pretty awful.  But, I was able to call G-d, "the Universe" and one of my sweet Episcopal priests told me that he thought that "G-d" was able to decipher the language ... <g>  I NEVER would have heard that from a GC church.  I am very curious to see/hear what another thought process says.  Most of the people who will attend are Believers ... but the sorts able to step back and look at ideas and thoughts without fear of contamination.  (Our G-d is a protector <g>)  But, even if they were not--they still have brains and thoughts and goodness and dearness--all the things that G-d created in them which would be there whether or not they dotted the right 'i's or crossed the 't' in the same way that another does...(and maybe the i and t get dotted and crossed but differently! Maybe it is still readable to the Great Writer!  Just because you/I cannot read their hearts does not mean the hearts are not 'okay'--maybe they are!)  And, G-d made brains!  I love that!


4) The Rick Warren statement was funny (to me).  Mostly because when I first read his book I was convinced that he was from a GC church.  (anything dealing with going too deep into G-d or ANY church took me to that freaked out spot for a while!)  I love the emergent church writings. They certainly are disagreeing with each other A LOT.  I don't think, other than the major belief stuff (remember the Four Spirtual Laws--the ones where you dot the i's and cross the t's? <g>) they see that G-d is pretty big and great.  I think my perspective is different from theirs, but I like how they seek out scripture, use logic, use science, examine, etc. It's fun to me, now, to see and watch people use the brains they were created with...and to do so without Fear.

5) To the protector--the poster who values honor and respect. My thanks. 

6) To the orignal poster--wow. You matched to three different perspectives!!  Take that as information as to where you are!  You obviously have lots of choices!  You have me (the one who wants to laugh and sing and enjoy and explore our world and the Othes as playmates and fellow walkers on this world that was Created for us and for our ultimate constructive good and happiness!); you have the judgmental one--who is not as rough as the ones you may be rubbing shoulders with every day but still has some of that in his soul--and then one who is (seems to me <g>) a bit balanced and able to step back and do the caretaking.   Know that you are surrounded by prayers of protection and guidance--with a candle lit so you can have a symbol in your head to pull on if you are in a position where you need extra strength or courage or hope...and just take care of yourself--and be in a life-giving place surrounded by others who will support you!  They exist-the world is far far bigger and grander than any of us, I think, even can imagine!

all the best,
eternity

[theresearchpersona]

[see above, which has been modified]

[saved]

EverythingChrist... ugh.  That's awful.  It sounds like the Baptist church we attended after we left our GC church.  (You know what they say, "out of the frying pan...")  Anyway, there's something better out there, you just have to make the effort to find it.  Can you keep attending and occasionally visit other places?  For me, community is key.  My dh is all about doctrine, while I'm all about relationships.  Both times that we left (the GC and then the Baptists) we did so by visiting other churches while still attending the one we were members of.  It helped a lot for me to ease the transition.  I hated doing it, but we found a good place eventually.  You might also try finding a nondenominational group (Bible Study, MOPS, Moms in Touch, something) to be a part of which could also lead to a different church to attend.

Eternity... thanks for your fun to read posts.  But that was absolutely unkind to tease us that you know how and why McCotter left but you're not telling! <g>   [I know someone who probably knows, but I haven't been able to ask... ]  Anyway, this whole "matching" thing sounds interesting... could you elaborate on it?

..+..

[everythingchrist]

Theresearchpersona,

I understand what the emergent church is all about. It's worse than GCM! I know their ideas and that 's all they are - ideas..

And, I'm not ok as I am....I feel guilty spending time posting on this forum.  Maybe we should all just pray for the GCM.
We can't throw biblical doctrine out the window, but I want to break the window of the man-centered doctrine at our church.  I know there are others there that have concerns, but I refuse to try to be the conscience of others who should be more discerning.  I stay because I obey my husband, we left for a  brief time before and found it just as miserable. Our town is extremely small and gossipy.  If we went elsewhere this Sunday, it would reach our pastors ears on Monday.
I have a couple of friends who do not go to our church, but my best friend and her family aren't finding a church they can stay at here either.  They do home church, but that's not a way to provide friends for our son.  I want his best and don't know how to explain to a child why we leave a church, and go to one that's less friendly.  I had a friend recently move out of state with her family just to get out of here.
I ask my husband if we can move out of this town. There's a chance of this with his change of jobs possibly coming up.
My own research leads me to think that Calvary Chapels are the most balanced scripturally...they don't toss out the Holy Spirit.  Our pastor gives a mental nod to the Spirit, but it's subtly implied that it's all up to us now.  It doesn't matter how much scripture I back up an argument with, we're told in our small group "not to argue."  I'm not arguing....God is!
At this point, my husband is fearful for our son's future since this town is a "closed community" in that it is very difficult to make friends.  Our church will go and slander us as they have everyone else who's left.  I ask the Lord not to take me out of this trial if it will bring about His fruit.  I'm also tired of the church confusing spiritual fruit with works.  It's serve, serve, serve, "we're just spending our time blessing others." is so prideful, arrogant, bragging and sick.  Also, tithing, "give to the church and we decide where it goes."
I'm so sad today, I've considered driving my car off a cliff.  That's got to be Satan either trying to kill me so I can't be anything to the Lord or to get me out of church all together.

[theresearchpersona]

My own research leads me to think that Calvary Chapels are the most balanced scripturally...they don't toss out the Holy Spirit.

What do you mean by "they don't toss out the Holy Spirit"?

  Our pastor gives a mental nod to the Spirit, but it's subtly implied that it's all up to us now.  It doesn't matter how much scripture I back up an argument with, we're told in our small group "not to argue."  I'm not arguing....God is!

I know what you mean, I've been trying to put the areas where this happens throughout GC into words, where GC practically denies the Holy Spirit, etc..

At this point, my husband is fearful for our son's future since this town is a "closed community" in that it is very difficult to make friends.  Our church will go and slander us as they have everyone else who's left.

Remember that in a sense you may just be being asked to "be martyred" (in a sense, I don't think you're in physical danger!) around there for bearing witness; remember that it's been the hallmark of Christians to be reproached for holding to the truth:

"Happy are ye when men should reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you, lying, for my sake"--Jesus Matthew 5:12

I ask the Lord not to take me out of this trial if it will bring about His fruit.

But can you be fruitful when you've been fed only messed-up teaching? And when that's all there is?

I'm also tired of the church confusing spiritual fruit with works.

Amen.

I'm so sad today, I've considered driving my car off a cliff.  That's got to be Satan either trying to kill me so I can't be anything to the Lord or to get me out of church all together.

Doesn't this tell you that you're worse to be there? If it's bringing you to that, you really might want to say your byes. If you're worried for your son, then it could also be good to get him outta' the town too, though perhaps it could really benefit him to see you guys taking that stand for the Lord too, and even bearing with the gossip just a little. But you really really really can't be so worried about the gossip they'll spread--all the more reward for you in heaven when you're persecuted on account of Jesus, just as he promises.

And, I'm not ok as I am....I feel guilty spending time posting on this forum.

I know how you feel with regards posting on the forums: strange isn't it? You know what, though? I remember when the forum thing came-up: people in the Church, when they heard there was a forum, said the leaders, accusing GC of being a cult, they were actually concerned: it did "irk" people, it might have forced them to examine things if it weren't for the quick information control: maybe you being in a small town could ruin such efforts by the leadership: perhaps just when people ask, share with them all that's going on, and bear witness. At the GC church I was at, it was good, it forced their hand--they had to do SOMETHING to counter and defend their actions, so the leadership turned-up the weakness paper (that was eye-opening). They didn't want anybody to take it either or leave it lying around (that also was eye-opening, and I kept it).

[saved]

I'm so sad today, I've considered driving my car off a cliff.  That's got to be Satan either trying to kill me so I can't be anything to the Lord or to get me out of church all together.

I live in a fairly small town.  It is VERY hard and you have my sympathy.  In the end, you and your husband will have to decide what to do.

DON'T drive off the cliff!!!!  How would that benefit your son?  He needs you!  Don't give up, don't let them win!  Hang in there.  I'd suggest counseling, but if your town is that small, I know that would be a tough choice, too.  DO talk to your husband about how much this is affecting you!

[theresearchpersona]

And glad to know something new about small towns to boot: I agree with "Saved", avoid sharp drops, unless you're hang-gliding or wing suiting. : )

With sympathy, and Love, in our Lord.

TRP

[everythingchrist]

My own research leads me to think that Calvary Chapels are the most balanced scripturally...they don't toss out the Holy Spirit.

What do you mean by "they don't toss out the Holy Spirit"?

  Our pastor gives a mental nod to the Spirit, but it's subtly implied that it's all up to us now.  It doesn't matter how much scripture I back up an argument with, we're told in our small group "not to argue."  I'm not arguing....God is!

I know what you mean, I've been trying to put the areas where this happens throughout GC into words, where GC practically denies the Holy Spirit, etc..

At this point, my husband is fearful for our son's future since this town is a "closed community" in that it is very difficult to make friends.  Our church will go and slander us as they have everyone else who's left.

Remember that in a sense you may just be being asked to "be martyred" (in a sense, I don't think you're in physical danger!) around there for bearing witness; remember that it's been the hallmark of Christians to be reproached for holding to the truth:

"Happy are ye when men should reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you, lying, for my sake"--Jesus Matthew 5:12

I ask the Lord not to take me out of this trial if it will bring about His fruit.

But can you be fruitful when you've been fed only messed-up teaching? And when that's all there is?

I'm also tired of the church confusing spiritual fruit with works.

Amen.

I'm so sad today, I've considered driving my car off a cliff.  That's got to be Satan either trying to kill me so I can't be anything to the Lord or to get me out of church all together.

Doesn't this tell you that you're worse to be there? If it's bringing you to that, you really might want to say your byes. If you're worried for your son, then it could also be good to get him outta' the town too, though perhaps it could really benefit him to see you guys taking that stand for the Lord too, and even bearing with the gossip just a little. But you really really really can't be so worried about the gossip they'll spread--all the more reward for you in heaven when you're persecuted on account of Jesus, just as he promises.

And, I'm not ok as I am....I feel guilty spending time posting on this forum.

I know how you feel with regards posting on the forums: strange isn't it? You know what, though? I remember when the forum thing came-up: people in the Church, when they heard there was a forum, said the leaders, accusing GC of being a cult, they were actually concerned: it did "irk" people, it might have forced them to examine things if it weren't for the quick information control: maybe you being in a small town could ruin such efforts by the leadership: perhaps just when people ask, share with them all that's going on, and bear witness. At the GC church I was at, it was good, it forced their hand--they had to do SOMETHING to counter and defend their actions, so the leadership turned-up the weakness paper (that was eye-opening). They didn't want anybody to take it either or leave it lying around (that also was eye-opening, and I kept it).

[everythingchrist]

theresearchpersona,
I agree with the vision-casters you talk about briefly.  Funny,  I know exactly what you mean without even hearing it before.  Our pastor recently taught that Noah built the ark because it was his vision.  And, as Noah did, we too ought to have a vision for our lives...Our "shape" should be used, etc.  I believe, if not mistaken, that Noah obeyed God since it was God's plan and would have happened anyway even if Noah had not obeyed.  His purpose cannot be thwarted. Or am I wrong?  Ughhh!  I wanted to walk out.  I believe as scripture says (Ephesians?) that God has the works we're to walk in and it's that which we follow.  Of course, those works would not include anything that was not in His nature, character.

[theresearchpersona]

theresearchpersona,
I agree with the vision-casters you talk about briefly.  Funny,  I know exactly what you mean without even hearing it before.  Our pastor recently taught that Noah built the ark because it was his vision.  And, as Noah did, we too ought to have a vision for our lives...Our "shape" should be used, etc.  I believe, if not mistaken, that Noah obeyed God since it was God's plan and would have happened anyway even if Noah had not obeyed.  His purpose cannot be thwarted. Or am I wrong?  Ughhh!  I wanted to walk out.  I believe as scripture says (Ephesians?) that God has the works we're to walk in and it's that which we follow.  Of course, those works would not include anything that was not in His nature, character.

No, you're not wrong: God won't be thwarted! : D