Valley Noir

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Valley Noir]

Boy, visiting this site brings back a lot of memories.  I was involved in a GCM campus ministry in the early 80s.  Like most freshmen, I didn't know many people on campus, but I was a Christian and wanted to get involved in a campus ministry, so I showed up at an advertised campus event, and started attending both the weekly Bible study and the Sunday morning service.  I've always been studious, I was in a tough academic program, and it didn't occur to me to lessen my academic load to be more involved.  I distinctly remember church members telling me that I should "seek counsel" from the elders about my academic career, but I knew one of the elders hadn't graduated from college, and the others had degrees in fields that were completely unrelated to mine, so I thought "What can these men possibly tell me about my coursework?"  So I never asked them for guidance.  Call me clueless.

That fall (I think) there was a Great Commission conference in Columbus, so of course all the faithful were encouraged to attend.  I only have a few memories of that conference: sleeping on the floor of someone's apartment with a whole lot of other people, and Jim McCotter's speech.  I know there's a lot of people here who found the man compelling, and maybe I did, too, but not in a good way.  I felt very manipulated and uncomfortable.  I was relieved that he wasn't a presence on my campus, but I also knew that everyone else thought he was great, so I kept my opinion to myself.  Oh, and the whole thing about McCotter being an "apostle"?  My reaction was  :roll: .

In the course of the year, I got to know a number of people in the church. We were encouraged to pick roommates within the church, so I reserved a dorm room along with another new member from my hometown, on the same floor with a couple of other guys.  We were also encouraged . . . .  Isn't it odd how that word gets warped?. . . . to stay in town for the summer, so my roommate and I rented a room from one of the guys in the church, and worked as painters for another church member.    That's when things started getting weird.  A friend of my roommate stopped coming to church meetings, and my roommate got very moody and quiet.   My boss, who was a church leader, was very secretive about his business, which wasn't much more than a bunch of ladders and underpaid church members.   I'm not sure when The Cause (I think that was the name) came out, but I remember being pressured to distribute it on campus.  That made me very uncomfortable--the political opinions were extremely, and sometimes viciously, right wing, with a four spiritual laws-type gospel presentation plopped in the middle.  I felt that it was an extremely poor witness, because my liberal classmates would be so turned off by the politics and  they would equate it with Jesus and the gospel.   I just couldn't bring myself to distribute it.

Then there was a meeting to discuss the newspaper and how it was a "church wide effort".  After the elders finished puffing the paper, they asked if there were any questions.  Again, due to my utter cluelessness, I raised my hand and told them exactly what I thought about the newspaper, that it was a poor witness, and I didn't want to distribute it.  There was somewhat of a pause--I became distinctly aware that I had inserted my foot in my mouth--and then I was curtly told to "come to the elders with your concerns."  I know that doesn't sound harsh, but in the circumstances that made me feel very, very isolated.  On the walk home, I lost it emotionally.  I knew something was REALLY bothering me, but I didn't know what it was and I kept it to myself.  Considering that I was surrounded by GCI people (what a coincidence), there was no one I could talk to about it.  Or so I thought.

Then one night, for some reason that I can't remember, my roommate and I started getting honest with each other, and everything came spilling out.  A close friend of his had been effectively shunned, and he was getting pressure from other men not to talk to her any more.   She was shunned because she had criticized the elders for discouraging people with serious mental health issues from getting counseling.  What made the shunning particularly galling was that this woman was, by life circumstances, extremely vulnerable, and needed good friends.  I told him all of the doubts I had: McCotter gave me the creeps, there was no financial accountability, there was an undisclosed hierarchy in decision making; there was pressure to do things I thought destructive; and finally, some of these people were just plain weird.  The group practically had its own dialect, with some words, like "encourage", having different, and less positive, meanings than it might seem.  My roommate was confused and angry, I was confused and angry,  and over the course of a long whispered nighttime conversation (we DID NOT want to be overheard by our housemates) we concluded that it was GCI's problem, not ours.  As soon as I could, I moved home, using a new job as an excuse.  My roommate left also.

After making the decision to leave GCI, I was very angry--I don't know exactly what that's about, perhaps disillusionment.  I tried to avoid bashing GCI, but my roommate and I would end up venting and mocking GCI stock phrases and ideas.  The two guys who lived on the floor with us still attended GCI in the fall; we got to know them well enough to tell them our concerns, and they dropped out, too.  Next, a couple of GCI women on the adjacent floor had an abrupt falling out.  I don't know exactly what happened, but one woman came home and found that her roommate and former best friend had moved all of her stuff out.    The abandoned roommate fell apart emotionally.  She told us that members of the church had violated her confidences in an extremely hurtful way, and she didn't trust any of them.  The last time I saw her, she had dropped out of college and was homeless.

Obviously the elders could see a pattern developing.  We got a phonecall from our former small group leader saying that he and an elder wanted to meet with the guys from our floor.  Needless to say, we felt defensive, because we knew what was coming.  Sure enough, slander blah blah blah divisive blah blah blah bitter blah blah blah defile blah blah blah.  In my head I said to myself, "If I wasn't bitter, I sure am now!"

After that, GCI wasn't a factor in my life.  I tried to be truthful about the group without attacking them.  After I finished graduate school, I took my first professional position.  Out of sheer luck, I was a new hire along with an excommunicated GCI elder.  He was much more negative about GCI than me.  I didn't think the abusive behavior was intentional; he told me that he had been party to conversations where church leaders had targeted individuals to be "challenged" to drop their friends or other connections for the express purpose of increasing their commitment to GCI.  His marriage had been a product of the church, and after he and his wife left the church, he wasn't sure that there was enough of a relationship to sustain the marriage.  He couldn't go to church and had real doubt about his faith.

So I've seen some pretty bad stuff, although I came out relatively unscathed.   My personal faults--my intellectual pride and my contrary nature-- probably protected me.  Funny how God works.

[puff of purple smoke]

Wow! Thank you for posting!

Oh, and the whole thing about McCotter being an "apostle"? My reaction was  :roll: .

Can you expand on this please? I have gotten into several arguments with people who have defended GC on this, and have told me that the media made up the apostle thing and that McCotter never really claimed to be an apostle. I have always found this hard to believe given the number of incidents in Larry Pile's book where McCotter was treated as the final authority on things, and the sheer number of teachings on obeying your leaders and so on. Did people in the movement back then really believe McCotter was an apostle? Did they ever explicitly teach this that you can remember?

Then one night, for some reason that I can't remember, my roommate and I started getting honest with each other, and everything came spilling out.

Same sort of thing happened with me, granted it was in 2005 or so. A few of us had a conversation along these lines, and after realizing others shared our concerns began to become more bold about exploring the possibility that there was a problem with GC and not us. Funny thing, in one of our first conversations of this sort, one girl that was talking with us went immediately to a leader and told her everything we said, and most of us were reprimanded. That probably helped confirm a few of our suspicions, actually!

A close friend of his had been effectively shunned, and he was getting pressure from other men not to talk to her any more. She was shunned because she had criticized the elders for discouraging people with serious mental health issues from getting counseling.

This sort of thing still happens today. I know several people who had mental health issues who were discouraged from seeking outside councilling. A girl who said she was thinking of killing herself was told to "pray about it" instead of seek medication or councilling. This happened several times to people with depression, actually.

[namaste]

Welcome, Valley Noir!!!

[Truth Lover]

Dear Valley Noir,

Thanks so much for posting here!  We are glad you escaped relatively unscathed.  As you know from reading here, it has not been so easy for some others.  I and our family also left, although it was much harder for us.  It could have been worse though.  Still, I thank God for His love, wisdom, mercy, truth, protection, and timing, for we left at just the right time ~ according to His providential workings & schedule ~ (although it was a bit later than I would have wanted humanly speaking).  We definitely learned a lot through everything, especially lessons regarding what the Bible says about truth, unity, the church, leadership, love, loyalty...and discernment  ~ lessons that are priceless!  Indeed, our difficulties drove us to God and His Word as nothing else had!  So that's how we began to learn to be much more discerning, as God defines it in His Word.

Anyway, I read much here and post occasionally because I do care for the people who have been hurt, so I pray for ones here too.  But I care most of all for the Truth of God ~ for His character to be known in spite of GC.  You can read my post at "Hellos & Testimonies" if you're interested.  May God continue to bless, protect, heal, & lead His people for His greatest glory and all our best good!

[Valley Noir]

Oh, and the whole thing about McCotter being an "apostle"? My reaction was  :roll: .

Did people in the movement back then really believe McCotter was an apostle? Did they ever explicitly teach this that you can remember?

Memory is a funny thing.  I'd never seen the Silver Spring article before I visited this site, but my reaction to it was "Oh yeah, I remember that."  I don't remember any specific time that it was taught.  I just talked to my old roommate on the phone, and he doesn't remember it at all.  So I'm afraid I can't give you anything definitive--other than that it didn't feel like new information.

one girl that was talking with us went immediately to a leader and told her everything we said, and most of us were reprimanded.

That's a great way to promote openness, don't you think?  In my present church, people complain quite loudly about the leadership.  Much more natural, as long as you aren't degrading someone or making false statements.

I know several people who had mental health issues who were discouraged from seeking outside councilling.

Yep.  My review of the GCM/I/whatever websites shows that the spouse of the person with the issues is fairly high up in the present day church.  I hope things worked out.  That brings up the memory of engagement announcements when everybody's reaction was "Huh? Those two?  Umm, O.K."

[Valley Noir]

I and our family also left, although it was much harder for us.

I can only imagine.  I was 19 and my family was always there to fall back on.  That's a cakewalk, compared to uprooting family tree-and-branch and starting over.

we left at just the right time ~ according to His providential workings & schedule ~ (although it was a bit later than I would have wanted humanly speaking).

Yes, I know what you mean, although with me, it's more a matter of "God, why did it take me so long to figure that out?", and with more things in my life than GCI.

[G_Prince]

That brings up the memory of engagement announcements when everybody's reaction was "Huh? Those two?  Umm, O.K."

Ha Ha!  It was always a guessing game. You new some people had been given the green light to "find a mate" but you never knew what the match-up would be. Then you would hear about so and so and think,"what? I've never even seen them talk to each other...ok I guess whatever..."  :lol:

[Daisy]

Obviously the elders could see a pattern developing. We got a phonecall from our former small group leader saying that he and an elder wanted to meet with the guys from our floor. Needless to say, we felt defensive, because we knew what was coming. Sure enough, slander blah blah blah divisive blah blah blah bitter blah blah blah defile blah blah blah. In my head I said to myself, "If I wasn't bitter, I sure am now!"

Blaming was a key way of dealing with problems that became apparent within my GC church as well, in 2005.

Then one night, for some reason that I can't remember, my roommate and I started getting honest with each other, and everything came spilling out. A close friend of his had been effectively shunned, and he was getting pressure from other men not to talk to her any more. She was shunned because she had criticized the elders for discouraging people with serious mental health issues from getting counseling.

Honesty seemed to be labled "slander" and "gossip" often, even if the focus of the conversation was a pattern of behavior, not the individuals.

[Independence-exer]

Just taking a look at the postings, after a long absence.

Your relating of your experience, the patterns of domination that the elders and others used, etc., and the way you feel when you dare to question them, is one of the best, most accurate, I have seen on this site.  In spite of joining a few years later that when I left ('79) you experienced the same things I did.

Thanks.

[theresearchpersona]

Thanks.

[BTDT]

(Waking up an old thread, when I myself should be asleep)

I have gotten into several arguments with people who have defended GC on this, and have told me that the media made up the apostle thing and that McCotter never really claimed to be an apostle. I have always found this hard to believe given the number of incidents in Larry Pile's book where McCotter was treated as the final authority on things, and the sheer number of teachings on obeying your leaders and so on. Did people in the movement back then really believe McCotter was an apostle? Did they ever explicitly teach this that you can remember?

I distinctly remember at least one teaching about the definition of apostleship, and why Jim and Dennis were thus apostles. I don't recall if it was part of a series, or a "stand-alone" teaching, but I do remember thinking, "Oh, *that's* what 'apostle' really means."  Young and impressionable, I was.

[anonymoustoday]

Yup, the old apostleship teaching goes way back.  It was taught across the movement in all the churches for a while.  The GC national leadership even ran a spiritual gifts conference in which they taught it big time.  

Y'all can still see the video of Jim teaching the *new* doctrine:  
http://gcxweb.org/Misc/ApostleshipVideo/Default.aspx

And y'all can read the book here: http://gcxweb.org/Books/Leadership/

Funny thing is, no one on this forum can ever remember the national leadership ever recanting this stinker of a doctrine or ever apologizing for having taught it.  They all just seem lie to us and say it never happened, never taught that.  Those guys just cannot own up to what they did and said.

Enjoy the video and the bedtime readin.

Other threads that discuss the apostleship of Jim and Dennis:

http://forum.gcmwarning.com/general-discussion/leadership-elders-and-apostles/

http://forum.gcmwarning.com/jim-mccotter-gc-history/qualifications-for-apostleship/

http://forum.gcmwarning.com/jim-mccotter-gc-history/significant-error-in-apostleship-video/

http://forum.gcmwarning.com/jim-mccotter-gc-history/how-many-apostles-are-there/