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Author Topic: Are GCX ELDERS above the Bible?  (Read 13152 times)
Janet Easson Martin
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« on: May 16, 2013, 10:18:30 am »

ARE GCX ELDERS above the Bible ?



"The elders who are good leaders should be considered worthy of an ample honorarium,
especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.  
For the Scripture says:  Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain, and, the worker is worthy of his wages.  

Don’t accept an accusation against an elder unless it is supported by two or three witnesses.  
Publicly rebuke those who sin, so that the rest will also be afraid.
I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels
 to observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing out of favoritism.  
Don’t be too quick to appoint anyone as an elder, and don’t share in the sins of others.
 Keep yourself pure."

1Timothy 1: 17-22  



1.  Who according to those scriptures are to be considered worthy of honor?   Does it apply to anyone who preaches and teaches?


2.  What exactly would qualify them as "those who work hard at"?   Does it mean they are convincing, charismatic, or good speakers?    Would it have anything to do with Paul's instructions on being one who accurately handles the word of truth?


3.  What accusations against elders are permitted to be accepted and received?  How many witnesses and testimonial evidences have been shared, explained, and warned about GCX elders on this site or to you personally?  What does God say to do about them?  Ignore them?


4.  Has the most clearly obvious offender in your group, church, or "church" organization ever been publicly rebuked as the scriptures demand?  Why is this necessary does the passage above say?   If it has not been observed, what does the scripture imply might be the reason?  





Are there any elders appointed in GCx organizations that were not appointed by the main biblical offender or by his appointees?




WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE GCX ELDERS IN THE HIERACHRY OF TRUTH?



« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 06:09:00 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
Huldah
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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2013, 09:08:26 am »

After I left GC, I gradually realized that Scripture is full of warnings that we, the rank-and-file believers, are responsible for choosing our teachers wisely. We're held accountable for whom we choose to listen to. The Bereans understood this. Jesus Himself said, "See to it that no one deceives you," (Matthew 24:4). (Although the latter was in the context of end-time events, it's surely applicable to the broader scope of doctrine.)

When we blindly accept the pronouncements of our teachers, then, in my opinion, we're committing the sin of idolatry, putting our teachers in the place of God. When we obey our leaders at the expense of own consciences (for example, sharing the gospel by deceitful means such as fake surveys), we're committing idolatry. Yes, there's a time for submission to spiritual authority, but if it requires knowingly violating the word of God (or unknowingly violating His word, when we chose not to verify "whether these things were so"), then that's idolatry. I, for one, was guilty of such, and in so doing, I believe I set myself up to be deceived. I'm not excusing the leadership for their part. They deliberately target the young and unsophisticated. It really makes me wish that doctrine and discernment could be a greater part of the training of Christian youth (and their parents).
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 11:09:34 am by Huldah » Logged
pvitartas
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2013, 06:36:38 pm »

I am happily a practicing Catholic, and still feeling the effects of my experience in Solid Rock.

As I reflect, many of us were young, impressionable, and "former" Catholics.  The misinterpretation of Papal authority fits well into the misinterpretation of Elder authority.  I think many of us with a Catholic upbringing were ready victims.
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tmd
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2013, 02:55:33 pm »

We're held accountable for whom we choose to listen to.
Thanks for starting this thread, Janet. The "double honor" verse was definitely a misunderstood one in GCx.

In GCx, we were led to believe in a hierarchy of authority from Jesus to the elders to us. For me, I always felt that the elders had delegated authority from the membership. So I agree very much that we are accountable for who we choose to listen to.

For me, a good example is Acts 6. The membership raised the concern (verse 1). The elders facilitated the solution (verses 2-4). And most important, it was the membership who approved the solution (version 5). This is also why I never believed in the plurality elders representing the authority of a church. Leadership comes from the members, who delegate authority to their pastors/elders, and who can remove that authority at anytime.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 02:58:15 pm by tmd » Logged
Huldah
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2013, 03:18:34 pm »

On the plurality of elders, some very old notes I took during a Dennis Clark teaching at Ohio State include this explanation from him:

Why a plurality? So an elder won't get off-track and take the whole church with him.

The irony is superb.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 03:34:59 pm by Huldah » Logged
Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2021, 07:13:42 pm »

Yes, Huldah, the irony of McCotter launching a “church” group with a plurality of “elders” so one leader ‘won’t get off track and take the whole church with him’ is remarkable. The plurality of his yes-men served as a convenient cover for him to treat God’s people abusively to quickly and greedily build his own empire.

McCotter seemed to be off track pretty early on.  Slandering and throwing people out who simply didn’t agree with him or his methods.  Why didn’t that safety factor of plurality kick in right away?  Apparently it did, but those who stood up for righteousness got slammed down.  They were not to be listened to because they were labeled divisive; factious; as seeking their own interests, not God’s; enemies of the gospel.  But, there were enough who supported McCotter’s abuse by their own silence or because they likely had come to “worship” him so that he was enabled to carry on to the destruction of many a member’s faith - not their eternal salvation, but their day-to-day reliance on Jesus.  

Thus, cultish behavior marched on.  Through deception and denial, those who continued to confront sinful control of the founder were silenced or ousted each time. Therefore, many of the founder’s disciples emulated McCotter’s oppression and exploitation of GCx’s members; or simply followed his edicts which he pervertedly claimed were biblical.  The yeast in the batch of dough grew wildly and seemed to permeate most of it’s churches.  Yes-men continued to be selected as future leaders; and there you have it, a full-blown MESS that grew beyond repair.  

I would say that the Bible seems to actually label many of these men unfit in carrying out the biblical office of elder because THEY WERE NOT FAITHFUL TO REBUKE AND REMOVE A SINFUL LEADER who served himself rather than God by twisting scripture to elevate himself above God, and gave ‘creditably’ to spiritually abusing thousands of people.  THEY SHOULD NOT BE LEADERS IN ANY CHURCH, unless of course they would sincerely and remorsefully confess and apologize for not carrying out this biblical mandate which led to the widespread abuse in it’s churches, and submit themselves to a biblically sound authority (under the authority of a sound seminary himself) who is willing and able to call them out.

God was falsely portrayed as basically inapproachable, harsh, and heavy-burdening in his “supposed will” for us in GCx. The people were not regularly built up in the “bible teaching” but often rebuked and condemned in not doing or being enough.  So, as a result the body was poorly lacking in confidence to encourage one another through their different gifts, varying ways to serve with them, and distinct performance of them that God creatively put in each one.  Thus, the people became stunted in their growth, both spiritually and personally.  People got stuck in a rut, and life got one-dimensioned instead of abundant.  Most people became unhappy, but didn’t know THIS WAS NOT “GOD’s WILL” (as we had been mercilessly drilled to believe) to live this way. As a result, many who were erroneously taught wrongly believed God was nearly impossible to please, and eventually gave up on “God”.  Some even had thoughts of suicide as a way out of this GCx-created endless treadmill.

This overwhelming burden from Abusive “Christian” Teaching and Practice is Satan’s plan for believers to be oppressed, exploited, and abused by Christian Leaders and Churches so they are tempted to hurl off this “burden” of what they have been erroneously taught is “Christianity”. This is what some Teachers of the law and the Pharisees did to God’s people.  That is why Jesus emphatically told those people:


“Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me;
for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Matthew 11:28-30


« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 08:00:16 am by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
Vince Capobianco
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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2021, 01:42:45 pm »

You can publically accuse Jim McCotter ANY Friday at 4pm.  If that doesn't work into your schedule, you can text the question to 404-405-6358 and I'll make sure it is asked!  What's your reason for not following the scriptures you quote?  Don't delay.  Truth needs to be made known!  You can even come on live in real time with no filters to oppose Jim to his face!  Time to drop all the facades and excuses and step up and be obedient! 
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2021, 03:49:48 pm »


The Deceitful Tongue

From a Sermon by R. Tuck



Psalm 120:3
What shall be given to you? or what shall be done to you, you false tongue?


Lips are soft; but when they are lying lips they suck away the life of character, and are as murderous as razors. Lips should never be red with the blood of honest men's reputes, nor salved with malicious falsehoods. Some seem to lie for lying's sake, it is their sport and spirit. The faculty of speech becomes a curse when it is degraded into a mean weapon for smiting men behind their backs. Those who fawn and flatter, and all the while have enmity in their hearts, are wicked beings; they are the seed of the devil, and he worketh in them after his own deceptive nature. "Ungodly men will do mischief to other men purely for mischief's sake; yet when once mischief is done it proves most mischievous to the doers of it; and while they hold their brethren's heaviness a profit, though they are never the Better, they shall feel and find themselves in a short time much the worse" (Caryl).



“A disciple is not above his teacher,
but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.”

Luke 6:40


It is not a good or safe pursuit to make oneself a disciple of a blind guide.






« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 04:00:08 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
Huldah
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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2021, 08:21:06 pm »

Members of this forum have been publicly writing about their personal experiences with McCotter since 2007. In all that time, neither McCotter nor his supporters have ever refuted any specific accusation against him. If he ignored so many serious complaints for over a decade, I for one will not be baited into interacting with him on his own terms now. 
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Linda
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« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2021, 09:39:06 am »

i have noted this, as well, Huldah.

GC defenders never/rarely answer challenges with ideas/theology.

Their main tool is to attack the messenger. Ad hominem is the technical word.

Words like slanderers, bitter people, liars, sinners, haters of the Gospel flow readily.

What is rarely if ever heard is any meaningful discussion that addresses the ideas and practice of this group over decades that has caused great damage to hundreds of Christian brothers and sisters.

Challenging ideas is a good thing.

Answering challenges with criticism of the person making the challenge is a cowardly, unhelpful, very bad thing.

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Huldah
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2021, 08:46:22 am »

Here's another thought.

If McCotter is able to get enough page views and subscribers on YouTube, he'll be able to get ad revenue from Google. It's interesting that he showed no interest in talking to the anyone from this forum until he could potentially monetize the interaction.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 02:11:29 pm by Huldah » Logged
Vince Capobianco
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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2021, 01:22:20 pm »

More vile and false gossip and slander from you people.  How careless and evil.  Jim has no interest in making money from this.  You really think that's the goal here?  It was my idea for Jim to come online.  Already many have reconnected and have been able to square things with Jim.  People are beginning to get excited about the next generation of believers and what they can do to reach the world with the Gospel.  That is what Jim is excited about.  Too bad you are missing the opportunity to get right and bring out your grievances publically.  I guess that would be financially detremental to you, so you won't do what God commands but will continue in your witchcraft (gossip).  Please repent.  God want's you to do all things possible to be at peace with all men.  Jim's available.  Come on the show and make things right, or if you'd like to have a private converstion, Jim will gladly discuss your concerns privately. 

Stop making excuses and do what God wants you to do.
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Huldah
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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2021, 02:04:20 pm »

For the record, Vince Capobianco has never pointed out a single instance of Jim being slandered on this forum, even when repeatedly asked to do so. Not sure what he meant by "financially detrimental," since there's no financial incentive for anyone to post here (unless, of course, they're posting here to gain viewers on a monetized platform like YouTube).

One of the things that multiple people have accused Jim of, on this forum and elsewhere on the Internet, is financial exploitation of his followers and employees. It's easy enough to search out such examples. So although I've never asserted that there's a financial motive in Jim's present endeavors, I can't help wondering if there is, since that would be in keeping with accusations made by multiple people over the years.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 07:34:36 am by Huldah » Logged
Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2021, 07:29:25 pm »


Do They Have Contempt For The LORD?



As a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings, and a partaker of the glory to be revealed,
 I appeal to the elders among you: Be shepherds of God’s flock that is among you,
watching over them not out of compulsion, but because it is God’s will;
not out of greed, but out of eagerness;
not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock
.

1 Peter 5:1-3


It is a solemn thing to put oneself in the position of teaching or leading others, especially God’s beloved people, in the scriptures. God requires that they be taught with accuracy, never twisted to gain anything manipulatively. They are to be taught to strengthen and equip his precious children, not weaken and attack them with ungodly dominion.

As I read the very beginning of 1st Samuel the other day, I was struck in my spirit that I also had witnessed first hand what deceitful “spiritual leaders” do, horribly dishonoring God. These “priests” of the LORD, Eli’s two sons continued in audaciously practiced oppression toward those who came to actually seek God. They used their positions for their own sordid gain in the Name Of God! God did not overlook it then and likely doesn’t now.

Their own words and actions convict them of wrong doing, though they tried to hide behind their servants. Perhaps then these priests’ sinful deeds would be blamed on their servants. What I was very interested in were their demands. Borrowing God’s authority they insisted the worshipper’s right to freedom while seeking God be handed over. To deepen their guilt, they threatened them with ungodly dominion.


And if any man said to him, “The fat must be burned first;
then you may take whatever you want,” the servant would reply,
“No, you must give it to me right now. If you refuse, I will take it by force!”  

1 Samuel 2:16


The Hebrew root for the word ‘force’ in the above verse is chozqah, (2394) in Strongs. It is the same root word that appears where God is rebuking the False Teachers and Prophets in Ezekiel 34:4 for ‘harshly and brutally’ leading his people. Chozpah means vigorously to oppress, or to capture by force. Here, in verse 4, is God’s tender heart toward his children revealed; and the corrupt heart and deeds of those “shepherding” them.


You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured.
You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost.
You have ruled them harshly and brutally.
 

Ezekiel 34:4

Brown-Driver-Briggs lists the definitions: 1 of oppression Judges 4:3 forcibly, violently; capture by force 1 Samuel 2:16; Ezekiel 34:4 of ruling וּבְמָּ֑רֶךְ ׳בְּח with force and with rigour. The Lexicon page for that verse lays it out in black and white:

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/ezekiel/34-4.htm


What really hit me at the end of the passage was that the very men who claimed they served and revered The LORD actually treated God as beneath themselves and his commandments worthless. They had contempt for The LORD. Definitions for ‘Contempt’ are - the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn. Also, the offense of being disobedient to or disrespectful of a court of law and its officers. Therefore, this treatment of God and his people is a serious matter, not to be excused or ignored. It’s VERY interesting that the way they treated God’s people revealed their heart for God.

Here is the partial passage about Eli’s deceitful and spiritually abusive sons:

Now the sons of Eli were wicked men; they had no regard for the LORD or for the custom of the priests with the people. When any man offered a sacrifice, the servant of the priest would come with a three-pronged meat fork while the meat was boiling and plunge it into the pan or kettle or cauldron or cooking pot. And the priest would claim for himself whatever the meat fork brought up. This is how they treated all the Israelites who came to Shiloh. Even before the fat was burned, the servant of the priest would come and say to the man who was sacrificing, “Give the priest some meat to roast, because he will not accept boiled meat from you, but only raw.” And if any man said to him, “The fat must be burned first; then you may take whatever you want,” the servant would reply, “No, you must give it to me right now. If you refuse, I will take it by force!”

Thus the sin of these young men was severe in the sight of the LORD, for they were treating the LORD’s offering with contempt.   (1 Samuel 2:12-17)


« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 09:28:36 am by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
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