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Author Topic: Believe it or not, Jim McCotter is back - sort of!  (Read 39540 times)
Huldah
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« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2013, 11:20:19 am »

Regarding the situation with the young woman and her pulled tooth, I do recall it being a molar but of course, depending on one's smile, molars can be seen.
Not to beat a dead horse, but the aesthetics aren't the only problem. Loss of any tooth can eventually cause bone loss in the jaw, drifting of the neighboring teeth, or eruption of the opposing tooth. It sets off a domino series of expensive, painful dental problems.

Getting back to the video: it was interesting to hear Jim still talking about the lack of any clergy-laity distinction in the New Testament. This was a major talking point in my days at Solid Rock. The irony was that, in practice, there was a huge distinction.

My questions for McKotter and other past or present leaders would be:

If there was no clergy-laity distinction, then how come the leadership got to decide whether or not she kept her tooth? If there's no clergy-laity distinction, why can't people arrange their own marriages instead of needing direction and permission from the leaders? Why the doctrine that counsel from a leader trumps personal leading from the Holy Spirit? Why do leaders regard themselves as the spiritual husbands of the congregation? It's really remarkable how the leaders positioned themselves as simultaneously "no different from any of you" and "so fundamentally different from you that God cannot speak to you without going through us first."
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 12:09:46 pm by Huldah » Logged
EverAStudent
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« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2013, 01:46:07 pm »

Huldah, excellent post.
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araignee19
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« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2013, 08:20:01 pm »

As a side note: The Rock Fort Collins has recently moved back to doing "house church" as well. I'm not sure exactly what it looks like, if it is the same as was in the past, or if it is relevant to this topic. But all the talk of "house churches" in this discussion made me realized that I recently learned (from my one remaining GC friend) that "d-teams," "small groups," and other such events have recently been turned into "house church."
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Huldah
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« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2013, 10:13:26 pm »

Huldah, The young woman in question was from SRF and the two that took her to the dentist were Keator and Meese (I think another sister may have gone, too).

The conference was, I believe, in the early Spring of 1979 or 1980, in York, Pa. or Jamestown, Ny. Not sure if you were around at that time but the conference involved several 'works', including SRF.
I left SR in the spring of '78. Keator I remember somewhat and may have talked to once or twice, but my memory's a bit sketchy on that one. Meese doesn't sound familiar. It sounds like this incident (with the tooth) took place about the same time as the events in the "Three Sisters" chapter of MTZ. Apparently the leadership was out of control on multiple fronts at that time.
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2013, 04:12:10 pm »

Uncaring attitudes toward the GC rank-and-file abounded even though adoration of the leadeship was very certainly the norm in the '70-'80's.  My wife and I lived in the mid-West and had volunteered to help start a new GC church in a different city than the one in which we lived.  We pulled up tent stakes and followed the leader, moving everything we had via our old clunker car (we got everything in just one car load!).  

Some months into the church planting while were were driving between cities our car lights broke down, at night, in zero degree weather with our newborn child in the backseat.  We thought, OK, we are just minutes from my wife's brother's home (he was a GC favored son on the track to becoming an elder), not too bad a situation.  We diverted our lightless clunker to his house, arrived at 11pm, heard great festivities going on inside, and shivering in the cold, knocked.

His wife answered, we explained our dilemma, and she impatiently stated, "We are having a GC leadership get together with some of the national leaders, and we have neither beds nor food enough for any of you...you'll just have to find some place else."  Door closed.  Of course, our money all went to the elders and we had nothing for a hotel (a hotel being an unthinkable expense for us in those days).  

I knocked on the door again.  This time my wife's brother poked his head out.  He said, "I really wish we could help but...you know the room and food situation..."  Before he could finish I blurted out, "We don't need a bed, we just need a hallway to sleep in and we promise not to eat any of your food."  

When one of the GC leaders could be seen peeking around the corner and overhearing some of this, everyone was too embarrased to send us away, so my wife's brother quietly led us to the unlit unfinished basement and we slept on the floor in a corner.  The party upstairs continued on, while I fell asleep exhausted.  

Early in the morning I got up alone, drove to the K-Mart, and bought wires and parts to repair the electrical lighting system of the car.  I repaired the car in K-Mart's parking lot in the frigid air (my wife's brother's garage was full and no one volunteered to go with me).  I drove back to their house, picked up my little family, and drove back to our our own town.  My wife said her brother had given her breakfast while I was out fixing the car.  

Not one of the GC leadership team came to see us in the basement or offered to help in any way whatsoever.  To this day we have no idea what leaders were actually at the party.  We also learned an unforgettable lesson about what GC leadership would do for those truly in need and genuinely in distress.  In fact, that lesson taught us that since the church would provide no "safety net" in times of hardship, leaving the church and being on our own did not actually place us any more at risk than we were while "under their care."  It made leaving easier some three years later.
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Linda
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« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2013, 05:21:20 pm »

No words. Wow. I'm sorry.
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Huldah
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« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2013, 05:31:52 pm »

EAS, I'm so sorry. What an ordeal, and so needless when there were so many who could have helped.

I can't help thinking of chapter 2 of James.
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2013, 08:04:55 pm »

Huldah, this may seem odd to you, but I had not applied that passage to that experience before.  LOL  I guess that is what it means to be too close to a situation to see it clearly.  LOL

Thanks for the kind sympathies. 

McCotter's legacy is built on such unseen and unknown acts of selfishness which are doubtless flung across the nation throughout the '70's and '80's, and perhaps even into this very decade.
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frinealaen
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« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2013, 10:50:22 pm »

 McCotter is the author of the new book, “Seize Freedom!: American Truths and Renewal in a Chaotic Age.” I have search for this book online and its really very good as per my point of view. Will some one suggest me other books .
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Linda
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« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2013, 07:48:17 am »

That book is by a different McCotter.
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2013, 09:04:53 am »

Is it written by the same Thaddeus McCotter who resigned from office last year seemingly because of apparent fake petitions to get him nominated for atleast the last 10 year's or so?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 08:47:32 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
askingquestionsaboutGCI
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« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2013, 03:29:09 pm »

Is it written by the same Thaddeus McCotter who resigned from office last year seemingly because of apparent fake petitions to get him nominated for atleast the last 10 year's or so?


Wikipedia seems to think so....  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaddeus_McCotter
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gresharne
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« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2013, 01:32:13 am »

I have heard about that Jim McCotter moved to California in January 1980, quickly moved back to the Mid-West, settling in Norman, Okla., in 1981.
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« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2013, 03:44:19 am »

The YouTube videos are pathetic. Just the ramblings of an old man who has lived so many lies, all his life, that he could not talk straight even if he tried. It made me physically ill to hear his voice.
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tmd
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« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2013, 08:57:53 pm »

It looks like Jim is using some of the same arguments. The traditional Christian world doesn't have a clue. But by using the bible, Jim reveals the truth.

From his book on House Churches and Leaders ... "This book explodes the myth of today’s churches and leaders being anywhere close to what we see in the New Testament. Most churches or leaders today are nowhere close to what they were in the New Testament. More amazing, most churches or leaders don’t have a clue how far they are from what Jesus and the apostles started. This book stands on one verse after another...."

One of the foundational myths of GCx was that the Book of Acts was a rule book of how the church must operate. That those of us who were freed from the "curse of the law", must somehow place ourselves under a new set of rules.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 09:22:48 pm by tmd » Logged
Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2013, 07:05:51 pm »

TMD,

So helpful that you posted Jim McCotter's superiority quote.  If a man selling an elixir said something like that many would not receive those claims as facts, but why do we so often get snagged by such claims when they are spiritual or pretend to be biblical.  That's the kind of stuff Paul's false teaching opponents would say to his new or young converts - that Number One) THEY WERE BASICALLY SUPERIOR; and that Number Two) OTHER SOUND TEACHERS (i.e. Paul) WERE BASICALLY WRONG OR SINFUL or LACKING (Check out end of 2 Corinthians and Galatians.)  

I don't know of any well-respected SOUND bible teacher today who practices the kind of strong claims and accusations you quoted against other SOUND bible teachers and is continuing to be used by or a communicator or messenger for God Almighty!  It seems God calls these kind of "bible" teachers false teachers because HE DID NOT SEND THEM, NOR DOES HE SPEAK THROUGH THEM.  This can be seen in Jeremiah 14, 23 & Ezekiel 34.

It is just so TELLING to see these trapping words in black and white.  These are the kind of enticements used to pull believers away from sound teaching to idolatry.

Janet
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 08:36:06 am by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2013, 02:09:31 pm »

I am struck again by the attempted use of advertising and marketing to sell a foundational idea.  The further in time I get from this, the further I get from it mentally.  It know long makes sense!  Hurray!
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Musi
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« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2013, 08:04:06 pm »

Hello Brothers & Sisters,
some things I learned is that there is no one we should Idolize,
for example God chose Moses to lead the Israelites,
that he was the humble man in the world in that time,
yet he blew it.

We must forgive and forget and wish Jim the best,
hope he comes back to serve God and learns truth.

as for us, God will guide the way,
and leave the judging thoughts to Him.

After all we fail Him all the time and have not come up to par
as He would have liked.

we must learn to live in Him and let Go of the past,
and help those we can with the little time we have left.

If this brother is doing something wrong, God is already
trying to lead or dicipline him in some way.

please read 1 Peter

 8 Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love,  tender heart, and a humble mind.  9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were , etc.

man always idolizes somebody or thinks they are something special, he is just
a regular human being, that did something different, he tried to do something good,
even though he may not have had all the right marbles.

  hope he finds his way. God bless him and his family and guide him in truth or
dicipline him in truth or both.

Blessings to all brothers and sisters in these last days. Jesus is coming very soon!
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2013, 08:44:25 am »

Hello Brothers & Sisters,
some things I learned is that there is no one we should Idolize,
for example God chose Moses to lead the Israelites,
that he was the humble man in the world in that time,
yet he blew it.

We must forgive and forget and wish Jim the best,
hope he comes back to serve God and learns truth.

as for us, God will guide the way,
and leave the judging thoughts to Him.

After all we fail Him all the time and have not come up to par
as He would have liked.

we must learn to live in Him and let Go of the past,
and help those we can with the little time we have left.

If this brother is doing something wrong, God is already
trying to lead or dicipline him in some way.

please read 1 Peter

 8 Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love,  tender heart, and a humble mind.  9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were , etc.

man always idolizes somebody or thinks they are something special, he is just
a regular human being, that did something different, he tried to do something good,
even though he may not have had all the right marbles.

  hope he finds his way. God bless him and his family and guide him in truth or
dicipline him in truth or both.

Blessings to all brothers and sisters in these last days. Jesus is coming very soon!

Ordinarily I let postings like this pass by without making a comment.  My spirit will not permit me to do that this time.

I appreciate what I assume is the intent of the poster.  And I assume only the best.  My assumption is that he or she wants us to be at peace, not seek revenge, and live our lives for the future of God's Kingdom without being weighed down by the past.  

However, the theology embraced by the post is crippling to the above stated intent.  

1) "We must forgive and forget and wish Jim the best."  Actually, no.  In context we understand that when we repent God forgives and forgets our punishment.  God does not let our sins slip his mind, not even our forgiven sins, but He does not punish us for our forgiven sins.  

Similarly, we are to forgive others in the same way we are forgiven by God.  OK.  Believe me, if you have never repented of your sins to Christ then He has never forgiven you of your sins.  So, when Jim repents we must forgive him and not seek any future punishment.  When he repents.  He has not done so.  The "best" we can wish for Jim right now is that he repents.

2) "as for us, God will guide the way, and leave the judging thoughts to Him."  Of course there are two ways the word "judge" is used in the Bible.  We are forbidden to judge the salvation of others and we are forbidden to judge the spiritual worth of other Christians.  

We are commanded to judge the actions and teachings of those persons who call themselves Christians.  At some times the Bible calls this command "judging" and other times it calls it "discerning."  

We MUST judge the teachings and actions of Jim according to Scriptural mandate and principles as he claims Christ and is in the body of the church universal.

3) "we must learn to live in Him and let Go of the past."  Um, no.  God commands us to remember who we once were so we will not be tempted to fall back to that poor estate.  Paul commanded Timothy to measure his growth in knowledge and holiness from where he was to where he is going so that his progress can be seen and recognized by all.  

God forbids us to want to return to the past.  The past is gone.  But He does not want us to forget the past.

4) "If this brother is doing something wrong, God is already trying to lead or dicipline him in some way."  The implication is that because God works on His own people we should let a person wallow in sin and worse we should not warn others that the person has been found in unrepentant sin and heresy.  No.

God commands us to judge those within the church and to apply Matthew 18 corrective actions, and then to WARN the entire church universal that a pretended brother is unrepentant.  The goal: to warn others and to shame the sinner back to repentance.

5) "he tried to do something good, even though he may not have had all the right marbles."  Did he try to do something good or did he try to build a powerful empire in the form of a religious denomination without consideration of good doctrine, love, and the spiritual welfare of others?  Who knows?  God forbids us to read the secret heart and mind of other people.  Likewise, you have no idea if Jim "tried to do something good" or bad.

"he may not have had all the right marbles"?  What a terrible euphemism for, "he committed gross sin against his fellow believers in the pursuit of his dream."

---

This may sound harsh to your ears, musi, but when offering a rebuke like you have just done against the survivors of abuse the rebuke needs to be doctrinally pristine, biblically accurate, factually correct, and administer justice properly to protect the innocent.  Your rebuke is none of those things, and worse, it would let Jim and others go without the warnings and rebukes that God said is necessary to call him back to repentance.  
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 08:47:28 am by EverAStudent » Logged
Huldah
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« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2013, 10:38:08 am »

Well said, EAS.

The purpose of this forum isn't to get revenge on anyone. It's to expose faulty teaching, to help those who are or were part of GCx, and to warn others of the risks of joining GCx, in the spirit of Ephesians 5:11. "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them."
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