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September 28, 2022, 02:43:52 pm *
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Author Topic: He's gone but not too far  (Read 13363 times)
Rebekah
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« on: January 28, 2010, 08:48:52 pm »

Check out the 2 Jim McCotter sermons from 1985 at the bottom of this page:

http://www.experiencetherock.com/updatepages/messagesspecial.html

Now, who else who's left--for any reason!--still has their 25-year-old sermons available online?

I haven't listened to them yet, but just the fact that they're posted says something about how they still feel about him.

Oh, and Mark Darling has one from 1985 too. I'm betting that's worth a listen.
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2010, 12:57:25 am »

Rebekah, shame on you!!  I don't have time to go to these sites and download this material...but you have tempted me...for shame!

Yes, two of McCotter's old messages really are posted on their website.  I wonder, do they play McCotter tapes during their conferences?

I also noticed that Bill Young has posted some spiritual gifts messages (on the "next level" of the site).  I did NOT listen to the audio, but I did download the notes and handouts.  AAARRRRGGGGhhhhhhh!!!!  The "notes" pages repeat McCotter's misunderstandings of the spiritual gifts as published in his leadership handbook.

Perhaps worse is the handout material also posted.  It is from Fuller (as in the liberal Fuller Seminary fame).  It is Fuller's and Wagner's spiritual gifts self-test, and it has such gems as "when you pray for the sick do you get a warm feeling and tingling in your hands?"

Truly McCotter is not gone.  If this is the garbage they are teaching at the conferences and in their leadership seminars things are much worse in present day GC than I had suspected.  Very sad.
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Rebekah
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« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2010, 04:20:56 pm »

 Cheesy Surely you can multi-task a bit! Listen to these old gems while cooking or cleaning (that's what we usually do!). It really does make doing everyday tasks more interesting. Nothing like some good old fashioned righteous anger to make you feel alive.  Wink

I've never heard their teaching on the spiritual gifts. I'm looking forward to it.
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2010, 05:28:00 am »

Quote
I've never heard their teaching on the spiritual gifts. I'm looking forward to it.

Well then, I suggest you start by listening to those who gave them the foundations of their present beliefs:

1) read the book by McCotter and Clark (it is a short read)   http://www.gcxweb.org/Books/Leadership/
2) watch the movie by McCotter   http://www.gcxweb.org/Misc/ApostleshipVideo/Default.aspx
3) read the rebuttal   http://thefaithfulword.org/apostlepageone.html

Only then would I bother to listen to the current material.  This foundational stuff explains buzzwords and nuances that the uninitiated might just skip over.  It explains the entire basis for how they view their "national elders" board as apostles.

Jim's not far away at all.  Not far at all...
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Linda
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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2010, 06:49:30 am »

Note the militaristic look of the Leadership book. It reminds me of the time one pastor (the one who told us the error statement was more of a statement of "clarification" and then never got us the copy we'd asked for) told us that the pastor was the "general" and we were the privates there to take orders.

GC churches like to tell everyone that the church is a body, a family, and an army. I can find in scripture where it says the church is a body and family, but I have never been able to find their scriptural basis for saying the church is an army. It does say we are soldiers, and the old song says we are in the Lord's army, but just because the Bible uses the metaphor of us being soldiers, it doesn't follow that the church is an army. It always bothers me when I hear them say that. I suppose part of what bothers me is that I know they are trying to tell everyone that they are the generals.

The above pastor also said that like the husband is the head of the family, the pastor is the head of the church. An obvious violation of Ephesians 5.
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For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 09:43:52 am by Linda » Logged

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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2010, 08:00:30 am »

Linda, I thought a somewhat recent Bill Young sermon was interesting when he said that people in the church are like the kids in his family.  How stupid would it be if his kids quit playing and instead criticized him on how to do the taxes or wanted to help with the taxes?  How ridiculous, he thought.  Don't church members understand?  They should just do their jobs.... get back to playing and let the leaders do the leader work.  Couple that with Pat Sokoll's recent message about how sheep are stupid.  Now add the militaristic sermons.  And then add in the sermons on discipleship and "I do what my leader tells me to do".  Add these together and we see WHY we are all in the boat we're in.  I'm appalled that it took me so long to see this. 

Their unchecked authority is running wild and stomping all over their unwitting, earnest followers.   And when you wake up and see the TRUTH, there is no recourse. 


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Linda
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« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2010, 09:54:47 am »

Just got back from church and a wonderful sermon on Matthew 23  entitled "Religion That Jesus Hates".

A few take home quotes:
When humanity gets "religious" they play God.
False religion uses people rather than loving them.
Greatness is not measured by how many you lead, but how many you serve.

I've always thought that Matthew 23 was key to understanding what is wrong with GC.  One verse that always sticks out when I read it is: "Everything they do is done for men to see". The system if GC is for elders to be "recognized". Interesting term.

More notes from Religion that Jesus Hates:
They speak from their own authority (v2).
They make their own laws (v3).
They don't practice what they preach. (v3).
Their laws are a burden to people (v4).
They are all about the rules and not the relationship. (v 5-10).

Then he said, "Expose their game plan!"
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 09:57:54 am by Linda » Logged

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Rebekah
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 08:19:02 pm »

I saw this on the GCNW Dad's website:

Barb McCotter, wife of Jim McCotter, and mother of seven children, wrote the following article. These two dear Christians were both very involved in the Great Commission movement of churches, in the early days.

     We owe them a debt of gratitude – not only for their lives and example, but for their great service, words and instruction.   I think you will enjoy this article by Barb, lifted from an old issue of “the Cause,” a magazine that we used to publish for our people in the 1980’s.

    In it Barb talks about training her children
.

The document is already posted on the GCx web library, but I couldn't miss the almost euphemistic way he mentions the McCotters. "These two dear Christians were very involved in the Great Commission movement of churches, in the early days." Uh, yeah, they were pretty involved!
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2010, 10:34:24 am »

lol

Yes Rebekah, I agree, the McCotter's were "pretty involved" in GC, just like Alexander Bell was pretty involved in the invention of the telephone, Tom Edison was pretty involved in the invention of the lightbulb, and Adolph Hitler was pretty involved in the creation of the Third Reich.

Still lol.
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everythingchrist
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 04:22:07 pm »

Jim's not far away at all.  Not far at all...
No, Jim lived in Wyoming, running a ski resort (very poorly) but left to work with Josh McDowell in, what I remember, South America.  I went to this resort, met him at a church in WY about four years ago.  He was a grumpy guy, not friendly at all. He told people he started the GC.  I was in a church in WY which we left due to great doctrinal error and cult-like control.  He was in trouble for contaminating water source in the Big Horn Mtns.  He was cited with environmental charges of some sort.
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BTDT
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« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2010, 10:52:06 am »

Truly McCotter is not gone.  If this is the garbage they are teaching at the conferences and in their leadership seminars things are much worse in present day GC than I had suspected.  Very sad.
Same reaction I have. I still wonder if some regression happened to GCAC along the way, like the "we never should have tried to change" people got back in control.  Who knows? Very sad indeed.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2010, 10:55:40 am »

My gut feeling is that Dave B (the guy who wrote the apology) wanted to change, progress, make amends, and the other more zealous types didn't like that or didn't get it.  Just my feeling, I have nothing to back it up except for Rick Whitney's "Could it have been a compliment to have been called a cult long ago"?
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Linda
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2010, 10:59:58 am »

I agree with you, Agatha. Dave was the only one with the courage to sign that letter. God bless him for that.
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BTDT
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2010, 06:12:57 pm »

I agree with you, Agatha. Dave was the only one with the courage to sign that letter. God bless him for that.
Amen to that. 

Last time I looked, I thought I saw him on both boards (GC[A]C and GCM).  I kinda wish he was here in the forum, to talk about what he sees in both organizations relative to the apology letter and the stuff that's been posted here about recent GC experience.
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