How very sad…

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[theresearchpersona]

Sam,

   One of the things that strikes me as odd about your passionate, circumlocutive defense of yourself, is that you helped create GC's doctrines, some of your own writing is even available on the gcxweb.org site to prove this: and your teaching there is terrible, and what you're doing there in that paper is utterly wicked.
   You would be much more believable if you'd simply start answering questions by Linda, EAS, etc., such as "what exactly was slander". We know, Sam, that people can create impressions through careful crafting of this or that, however in all honesty, the letter under consideration is no such thing: and as far as  can be seen from those papers, etc., back then, you were well worth warning others about. No offense.

[DrSam]

Sam,

   One of the things that strikes me as odd about your passionate, circumlocutive defense of yourself, is that you helped create GC's doctrines, some of your own writing is even available on the gcxweb.org site to prove this: and your teaching there is terrible, and what you're doing there in that paper is utterly wicked.

Wow, Research! Those are pretty strong words! You're calling me "wicked." Interesting. I don't have the foggiest idea what you are referring to and you sound incredibly intolerant, posturing yourself as superior and better. Isn't that elitism?

 

 You would be much more believable if you'd simply start answering questions by Linda, EAS, etc., such as "what exactly was slander". We know, Sam, that people can create impressions through careful crafting of this or that, however in all honesty, the letter under consideration is no such thing: and as far as  can be seen from those papers, etc., back then, you were well worth warning others about. No offense.

"They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other:  'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not cry.'"
Luke 7:32 NIV

[Linda]

Sam,

I asked you questions because I didn't understand what you were saying and I was trying to understand your position.

Sometimes you answered my question in a way that I didn't understand, so I tried to rephrase it.

I thought I had figured it out so my last post was the conclusion I drew based upon your answers to my questions.

Here is what I concluded:

Bringing it back to the Royal letter, here's how I would sum it up.
-A letter was written by a former GC leader addressing a specific concern to a local pastor of a non-GC church.
-You were a GC leader at a GC church when the letter was written. GC was doing some bad stuff at the time
-Because you were a GC leader, you felt you were being accused of doing bad stuff yourself

Bringing this back to Sam Lopez--GC Leader (which you were when this letter was written), you, AT THAT TIME, represented GC because of your position. I understand that you didn't think a number of things were right, and you mention that you did not do any of those things, but the sad fact is that, as a leader, the only way you could separate yourself from the bad teaching was to leave. Which you did.

I would imagine, that in your practice, you try to understand your clients. It seems to me that the best way to make sure you are on the same page and understand them is to ask questions. I would not even think that you were "asking them to dance" for you. You are merely trying to understand them, which is a good thing.

[DrSam]

Thank you, Linda and No Problem! I was simply addressing the person who called me "wicked."

Sam,

I asked you questions because I didn't understand what you were saying and I was trying to understand your position.

Sometimes you answered my question in a way that I didn't understand, so I tried to rephrase it.

I thought I had figured it out so my last post was the conclusion I drew based upon your answers to my questions.

Here is what I concluded:

Bringing it back to the Royal letter, here's how I would sum it up.
-A letter was written by a former GC leader addressing a specific concern to a local pastor of a non-GC church.
-You were a GC leader at a GC church when the letter was written. GC was doing some bad stuff at the time
-Because you were a GC leader, you felt you were being accused of doing bad stuff yourself

Bringing this back to Sam Lopez--GC Leader (which you were when this letter was written), you, AT THAT TIME, represented GC because of your position. I understand that you didn't think a number of things were right, and you mention that you did not do any of those things, but the sad fact is that, as a leader, the only way you could separate yourself from the bad teaching was to leave. Which you did.

I would imagine, that in your practice, you try to understand your clients. It seems to me that the best way to make sure you are on the same page and understand them is to ask questions. I would not even think that you were "asking them to dance" for you. You are merely trying to understand them, which is a good thing.

[wastedyearsthere]

I think he was saying what you said in the paper was wicked -- I don't think TRP meant to call you personally wicked.

I would be interested in what is in this paper that TRP refers to you writing.

[DrSam]

I think he was saying what you said in the paper was wicked -- I don't think TRP meant to call you personally wicked.

I would be interested in what is in this paper that TRP refers to you writing.

He said, "What you are doing there in that paper is utterly wicked." My actions = utter wickedness, according to the Research guy. Let me see, actions are not indicative of who a person is? Kind of like Clinton broke his marriage vow but we can trust him?  Diagram the sentence and you'll see what his meaning is.

[Linda]

Where is this paper?

Do you still agree with it, Sam? I guess that would be the important thing to establish.

If not, I would guess the past tense would have been better wording.

(I really hope my children never find the paper I wrote in high school suggesting that Down Syndrome babies should be aborted. It exists somewhere and I have repented of that thinking. If they came across it, the first thing I would do is explain how wrong I was and why.)

[EverAStudent]

You would be much more believable if you'd simply start answering questions by Linda, EAS, etc., such as "what exactly was slander". We know, Sam, that people can create impressions through careful crafting of this or that, however in all honesty, the letter under consideration is no such thing: and as far as  can be seen from those papers, etc., back then, you were well worth warning others about. No offense.

"They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other:  'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not cry.'"  Luke 7:32 NIV

Just to make sure we are all on the same page, the Luke 7:32 passage Sam quoted was Jesus' way of rebuking the Pharisees for having been derisive toward, and dismissive of, all those who had just repented and had left from following after the ways of the Pharisees.  

The Pharisees were like the little children, mocking those who had repented and who had walked away from being followers of the Pharisees.  The Pharisees resented the fact that people were becoming baptized and were leaving their ranks.  The Pharisees were like nasty children playing in the street, taunting others for not joining them in their childish games.

As I see it, in my opinion, the GC old guard are the children in the street calling to others saying, "here we are playing tunes for you, but you do not dance with us, why?"  And the reason is, just as in Jesus' day, there comes a day when one must grow up spiritually and walk away from the childish behavior of the Pharisees, else, remain childish forever.  

[DrSam]

Linda,

Again, I do not wish to get into a "tit for tat" which is what this will produce. The burden is on Research. What he thinks is really not that important in light of eternity. He's entitled to believe anything he wants about anyone and if he gets his jollies from being a "superior theologian" then by all means lets tell him that he is "the greatest theologian of all time" so he can get his love/affirmation tank full and move on with his life.

I've already shared my stance on issues of church polity as it pertains to discipline. I've already shared that there is no justification for abuse. I've already shared that GC has been wrong. What else am I expected to say that I have not said?

Where is this paper?

Do you still agree with it, Sam? I guess that would be the important thing to establish.

If not, I would guess the past tense would have been better wording.

(I really hope my children never find the paper I wrote in high school suggesting that Down Syndrome babies should be aborted. It exists somewhere and I have repented of that thinking. If they came across it, the first thing I would do is explain how wrong I was and why.)

[Linda]

Sam,

I'm just trying to figure out what paper of yours is being spoken of and whether or not you agree with it today.

[Linda]

Just to make sure we are all on the same page, the Luke 7:32 passage Sam quoted was Jesus' way of rebuking the Pharisees for having been derisive toward, and dismissive of, all those who had just repented and had left from following after the ways of the Pharisees. 

The Pharisees were like the little children, mocking those who had repented and who had walked away from being followers of the Pharisees.  The Pharisees resented the fact that people were becoming baptized and were leaving their ranks.  The Pharisees were like nasty children playing in the street, taunting others for not joining them in their childish games.

As I see it, in my opinion, the GC old guard are the children in the street calling to others saying, "here we are playing tunes for you, but you do not dance with us, why?"  And the reason is, just as in Jesus' day, there comes a day when one must grow up spiritually and walk away from the childish behavior of the Pharisees, else, remain childish forever.

Thanks for not letting that passage slip by without commentary.

[lone gone]

So this passage ONLY applies to Pharisees who lived 2000 years ago? 

 How much do we limit the application of God's revealed wisdom?   Jesus concludes his allegory by stating "Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children."

He never said.... If it walks like a duck..."  but we all know what that means.

[EverAStudent]

Just to make sure we are all on the same page, the Luke 7:32 passage Sam quoted was Jesus' way of rebuking the Pharisees for having been derisive toward, and dismissive of, all those who had just repented and had left from following after the ways of the Pharisees. 

The Pharisees were like the little children, mocking those who had repented and who had walked away from being followers of the Pharisees.  The Pharisees resented the fact that people were becoming baptized and were leaving their ranks.  The Pharisees were like nasty children playing in the street, taunting others for not joining them in their childish games.

As I see it, in my opinion, the GC old guard are the children in the street calling to others saying, "here we are playing tunes for you, but you do not dance with us, why?"  And the reason is, just as in Jesus' day, there comes a day when one must grow up spiritually and walk away from the childish behavior of the Pharisees, else, remain childish forever. 

So this passage ONLY applies to Pharisees who lived 2000 years ago? 

Luke 7:32 was originally spoken to, and about, the Pharisees.  It is my opinion that the Pharisees were given to us many times in the Scriptures as examples of what not to do with the faith.  So we are well advised not to be like the Pharisees of Luke 7:32 who tried to get others to stop growing in their faith and who tried to get the people to join in their stagnation and extra-biblical hypocricy. 

[Jim]

I exited GCM 1991.  Boy, it sure did mess a lot of us up!

[newcreature]

I recently came across this thread that was posted last year (emphases and ellipses mine):

I agree that Mike Royal is warning Rev. Mike Braun about GC . . . If I were Mike Braun I would immediately become suspicious of his local pastor friend (me). That is my point. I was one of the founders of that church Mike Royal refers to. I was in transition of deciding if I was going to stay in D.C. when the Legra incident happened . . . It came from immature leadership on the homefront. . . . The elders realized they made a big boo boo. The damage was done and Legra left the church and possibly went to Rev. Braun's church.

Linda had previously made a very insightful response which Sam never fully addressed:

Sam, this letter was not about you.

There is obviously a back story to this letter that none of us know.

I was a member of that church at the time of the (Victor) Legra incident. Here is the back story:

1. Sam and Rick Whitney were the founders of that GC church.
2. They personally ordained all the leaders on the homefront.
3. Sam was right when he said all the leaders were immature.

However, I find Sam's use of terms very interesting. One of the leaders that Sam appointed intentionally and physically slapped Victor Legra in the face during a "counseling" session. That is the "boo boo" Sam referred to. That is not how Victor referred to it. After getting out of communist Cuba, Victor was very terrified by this kind of abuse at the hands of a church leader. No wonder Mike Royal and Mike Braun were so alarmed when they learned about abusive leadership in another GCI church.

Since Sam and Rick ordained all the immature local leaders, what does that say about their judgment as national leaders? And what does it say about the training they received from their "apostles" (Jim and Dennis)?

Furthermore, what does that say about the national leaders when they use euphemisms like "boo boo" and "Errors and Weaknesses" when they describe "incidents" within GCI? Those terms appear to gloss over the true nature of GCI abuses when the real facts come to light.

[Linda]

One of the leaders that Sam appointed intentionally and physically slapped Victor Legra in the face during a "counseling" session. That is the "boo boo" Sam referred to.

Very interesting since I am also aware of a leader of a Christian "movement" (not GCI) who did this very thing to a man in his 50's (at the time) who dared to privately question a strategy that the movement was using. Perhaps heavy handed leaders who "get caught" use the slap across the face method of gaining control. Also, wouldn't that be "battery"? Good thing that Mr. Legra chose not to pursue this legally.

Newcreature, how did they handle this slapping incident (aka "boo-boo")? Did the leader apologize to the congregation? Was the leader disciplined?

Since the "movement" values "character" above all else, how did they handle this? Certainly the actions of this leader were in contradiction to the 1 Timothy and Titus requirements.

An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.

For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

[newcreature]

As I recall, the elder who slapped Victor said he did so because he thought Victor was hysterical during the counseling session, and he felt Victor needed a good slap to calm him down and bring him back to reality. I am pretty sure he apologized to Victor in private, but I honestly don't remember a public apology. Since public apologies from leadership were rare or non-existent in GCI churches prior to the "Statement of Errors and Weaknesses," it seems I would have remembered if one occurred. I generally have a good memory, but it is growing shorter as time goes by.  

Sam said in his post that he would have stopped the incident if he was present. Playing the "if" game with history is very presumptuous. It also raises another big "if" in my mind. If Sam knew that his mere presence prevents incidents like that from happening, why did he appoint all those immature leaders in the first place and then leave the church in their hands?

I don't think Victor filed charges against the elder. One saving grace for that elder was that he too was Cuban and he too felt misunderstood by the "mid-westerners" (as Sam expressed in a previous post). Over time the caucasian deacons and elders lost confidence in that leader's ability to effectively lead and teach. The pots called the kettle black and they defrocked him within a year of the "incident."

Since Sam said he and Victor are good friends to this day, perhaps Sam can fill in the missing pieces. However, I find it surprising that Sam didn't know where his good friend went to church after fleeing GCI.

[blonde]

The very first post sounds like Pastor Mark Darling.  Someone that is pro-GCx.  Again we are the bad ones for having ideas about what we think. 

[Musi]

Dear Brothers and Sisters from all over the nation and world, I participated in GCX influence from testimonies of a brother in my church who visited Ames and gradually it influenced my church, we were very happy & we respected the dicipline of the brothers there so much we yearned to be like them until we became a lot like  them.

but I believe we evangelized differently due to fundamental evangelism teachings from
other  respected churches we originated from. As things turned out our church was fine for a while until what I call "centralized control" of everything and everyone evolved into the picture;

 those who did not submit to "expectations" were subjected to what I have examined as the practices of :
1. Alienation 2. Shunning 3. humiliation - in groups or individidually 4. censorship 5. Elite superiority attitudes 6. and just making your life miserable till you either shape up or ship out.

but see .. I don't hold Jim Mcotter responsible, I hold everyone who participated as responsible.. which may be some of us and some of you ( i include myself in the picture),
we were all part of the problem because we were "followers".

I forgive Jim and everyone else ( without their repenting) and of course I think it would
help their lives to repent.. not mine.

This is where I part with the coordinator of this forum.
Yes.. a person can only "receive the forgiveness" if they repent,
but the forgiver can be predisposed to forgive before the repentance.

Luke 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know ...
biblehub.com/luke/23-34.htm‎
New International Version Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting...

I think if Jesus had not prayed that, God would have destroyed "humanity"
end of story.

◄ Matthew 6:15 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

New Living Translation
But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.

English Standard Version
but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

New American Standard Bible
"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

God can look down on our lives and see the wall of stubborness in not wishing
to reconcile and hanging on to bitterness or "unseen hidden bitterness".

on another note...
One of the main faults of the GCX churches was the misapplication of Mathew 18
both by leaders and members, God meant it for the use of reconciliation not as a
hammer.

I believe looking at our pain can help us determine if we have a right attitude before
God and if we are hurt to pray to God to heal us, lashing out at someone does not
necessarily mean we are going to be healed, even though the other person is hurt
him or herself.

going back to basics it is our "relationship with God" that most matters,
we must be right with him before we can straighten out others, of course
knowing mistakes in application of scripture is useful towards that goal
which many of you already mentioned.

Come to me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest ..Mathew 11:28-30.

wether others learn of their mistakes that is up to them, some have already excommunicated themselves such as Jim did when he left, if he comes back,
we should pray that he will face many of you who have exhibited a right heart
attitude & concerns.

leaders and followers all should pray to God and confess what and where we
have wronged others.

but if we don't have a forgiving attitude we are  not going to get anywhere
with our Master - Jesus, let's look at his example of Graciousness, Love , and
Humility , the utmost Elite and yet gave it all for us, to Him be the Glory for
Ever and Ever, Brothers and Sisters let us all pray to be One in love and humility
and pray for those who have offended us by faith ( i understand it will be hard for
some of us than others). ( to administrator of this forum) let others comment differently
this time if they disagree with me. ( let it not be you please) .

[Linda]

Musi,

1. From August 1995 till March 2005, we never once heard the name Jim McCotter. I have no personal issues with Mr. McCotter. Nothing to forgive.

2. We left in August of 2005 after it became apparent that the theology of our church, Evergreen, and Great Commission was flawed. The precipitating event was asking our high school daughter to commit to Evergreen for life while she was at HSLT in Colorado ON OUR DIME!

3. It is not theologically sound to teach that pastors must be obeyed and church members must commit for life.

4. You never "forgive" false teaching/heresy. You expose it.

Also, for the record, it looks to me like the last post of the administrator was last January. If you are referring to Everastudent, I welcome his posts and was so grateful he responded to your initial comment. I was too weary to respond, but felt a response was necessary. So, thank you EAS and Huldah. Please post as you feel led. Don't be intimidated.