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Author Topic: Leadership: Elders and Apostles  (Read 28292 times)
omelianchuk
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« on: April 23, 2018, 06:11:53 pm »

Sorry to interrupt the regular Mark-Suzanne drama, but does anyone have a hard copy or scanned copy (PDF) of this book: http://gcxweb.org/Books/Leadership/  ?

I am wanting to see the physical page of this quote:

"May God give us a driving spirit of unity, a spirit that consistently burns brighter and hotter than all jealousy, envy and selfish ambition put together! There must be unity at all cost. When believers divide over so-called doctrine, they are always trampling under foot the cardinal doctrine — UNITY. The scripture itself gives a list of the only truths we should ever divide over in Ephesians 4:1-6 (the only addition would involve a person that is under church discipline). We should always have a fervent love, unity and respect for every Christian, though we may not labor with every Christian. We must always realize, all believers that are not with us, if they are not against us, are always on our side. Jesus said so (Luke 9:50)! So let us promote plural autonomous leadership in and for the spirit of unity. It is the New Testament way."

The emboldened part strikes me as particularly silly, and I am surprised that none of the "Response Publications" quote this whopper as clearly deficient. Do the book really say this?

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Linda
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2018, 07:21:21 pm »

We have it. Message Terry your email and he can send a photo.
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araignee19
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« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2018, 07:35:20 pm »

Wow. I hadn't seen this text before. Thanks for sharing (and interrupting). 

How did they figure that Ephesians 4:1-6 is talking about the only truths we should ever divide over (with one exception that was unfortunately and inexplicably left out)? I'd be curious to hear the logic behind that one, among other questions I have.
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omelianchuk
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« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2018, 07:39:50 pm »

We have it. Message Terry your email and he can send a photo.

We'll do.
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Linda
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« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2018, 07:48:49 pm »

According to Larry Pile, it was the “Unity/Truth” teaching that got Bill Taylor excommunicated.


Quote from: MarchingtoZion
On Sunday, September 12, 1976, the assembled members of the SRF were severely shocked and saddened as Mike Keator and Fred Colvin publicly excommunicated their fellow-elder, Bill Taylor, on a charge of "faction."

   The storm unleashed on this day had been brewing since at least August 1974. At that time an elders conference was held in Albuquerque, N.M., attended by leading brothers from most of the then-existing Blitz fellowships. All three of the current Columbus elders (Dennis Clark, Mike Keator, and Bill Taylor) were in attendance at this gathering, having committed the responsibility of the assembly to Mike Meese and me.

   During this conference Bill addressed the subject of truth and unity, saying that while unity is important, Scripture also speaks of the importance of truth. Bill stated further that the point can be reached where the pursuit of unity exceeds the pursuit of truth and thus becomes an invalid unity; as an example he cited 1 Chronicles 12:23-13:14 and 1 Chronicles 15:1-16:7, which tells of a thoroughly united effort by King David and the Israelites to bring the ark of the covenant up to Jerusalem, but not in the way prescribed by God. This united but wrong endeavor resulted in the death of one man and God's displeasure. It wasn't until they united within God's plan that they succeeded in this task. Bill concluded his remarks by proposing that the brothers re-examine some of their key teachings and the direction in which they were headed.
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omelianchuk
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« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2018, 08:21:07 am »

Thanks to Terry for emailing. It's hard to believe, but they really did publish that.  Shocked
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DarthVader
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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2018, 08:23:39 am »

How (if at all) does this impact your view of GCM? Knowing what you known now would you chose a GCM church?
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Linda
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« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2018, 08:31:54 am »

Adam, Also to be noted is that Clark up until a couple years ago was still listed as a national board member of GCC. (Now listed as emeritus last I checked).

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omelianchuk
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« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2018, 08:39:31 am »

How (if at all) does this impact your view of GCM? Knowing what you known now would you chose a GCM church?

Not much. I read through Larry Pile's book circa 2006, and it didn't change my mind much, though it was disturbing. I am one of those people who is placated by the Statement of Error.

I would very seriously consider going back to the Urban Refuge if we moved back to the Twin Cities (we probably would, in fact). I loved that place and Andy and Chad are wonderful pastors.

The cost for me would be to give up having communion every week, which I've come to hold dear.
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Linda
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« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2018, 03:54:41 pm »

Quote from: isthisreal
Let me get this straight....1976? You are all fixating on stuff from over 40 yrs ago? You all make it a habit to post on here for over a decade because the church didn't see things your way and wasn't a good fit? Posting at 1am, 4am?

Adam was referencing an old book. The teaching in that book has been around for years and caused a kerfuffle and got a guy excommunicated. It was a big deal.

Every GCC board member and the founding pastors all know who McCotter is and learned from him.

Posting at 1:00 and 4:00? Am? Wasn’t me. Not that it would matter.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 04:32:16 pm by Linda » Logged

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Huldah
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« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2018, 04:03:59 pm »

Let me get this straight....1976? You are all fixating on stuff from over 40 yrs ago?

I wouldn't call it a fixation. We discuss the history of the Blitx/GCx movement here, so yes, what was taught 40 years ago is still a valid topic. (Just as, if this were a board about Calvinism, we'd still be discussing what Calvin taught 500 years ago.) McCotter's teachings are part of your church movement's history, so if you're really all in, "warts and all" as you wrote, why avoid this particular wart?

Quote
Posting at 1am, 4am? Don't you have other thing to do?

Keep in mind that we're not all in the same time zone, nor on the same work schedule. 4AM may be the middle of the workday for some people. 1AM where you are may be 10PM where I am.

Quote
Honestly, even if Mark is guilty, nothing changes for me.

I don't want to misunderstand you. Are you saying you would support a pastor with a history of sexually harassing women? As a Christian, you'd be okay with this?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 04:30:58 pm by Huldah » Logged
araignee19
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« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2018, 04:32:24 pm »

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" -George Santayana
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Mango
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« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2018, 05:08:52 pm »

Continually rehashing thoughts of negative events in the past is self-abuse and can be more destructive than physical harm.

Or to put it another way, those who fixate on the past and spend years posting on boards like this, don't seem too happy.
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Mango
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« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2018, 05:13:06 pm »

To put it another way

“To get over the past, you first have to accept that the past is over. No matter how many times you revisit it, analyze it, regret it, or sweat it…it’s over. It can hurt you no more.”
― Mandy Hale

...unless you fixate on it and spend the precious moments of your life posting about the same things over and over on this silly forum.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 05:50:41 pm by Mango » Logged
Huldah
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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2018, 05:50:46 pm »

But why not just leave us to it, then? How is it any better or healthier for you to come here and fixate on the critics of your movement? How is it even any different?
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omelianchuk
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« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2018, 06:16:02 pm »

It's weird that this thread has become about fixing on the past blah, blah, blah. It was actually about questioning whether something absurd was really written in the first place. I had a reason to doubt (see the original post), but then it turned out I was wrong. Why is that? Because I asked for physical evidence and someone gave it to me. Also, the book is from 1984, not 1976, so there's that. I also wrote about how this doesn't change my mind about GCC church I was a part of (the Urban Refuge).

So... why the sermonizing about dwelling on the past?  Huh
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Greentruth
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« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2018, 07:53:38 pm »

Isthisreal - I think you put it pretty well. It’s obvious there is a handful that will probably stimulate themselves on this form until they die, but that is their choice, right or wrong. Has never had an impact on anything really. Most wouldn’t be on here now if it weren’t for Suzanne’s accusations against Mark and the Church. And the simple fact of that is why many have come here to try and keep the truths above the speculations, manipulations and quite frankly the fetish’s to take ECC down through this. This is NOT from God,in any shape or form. To attack Gods Church, and I don’t mean just ECC, comes straight from the pit. Prayer is the answer my friend, and know that Jesus has already won this battle, even though the Evil one can make it miserable for awhile.
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araignee19
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« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2018, 07:57:14 pm »

And there are some who will never learn to stay on topic and not hijack a thread...
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Linda
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« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2018, 08:03:41 pm »

Quote from: Adam
Also, the book is from 1984, not 1976, so there's that.

Sorry I didn't explain better.

I was trying to show that the "unity is the cardinal doctrine teaching" goes way back with McCotter/Clark. It's part of the DNA of the group.

It has never been corrected. Dennis Clark, who co-wrte the book, has never stated publicly that he disagrees with that teaching in the book he wrote and he sat on the board of GCC for many years. Dennis is still listed as board member emeritus.

http://gccweb.org/about/gcc-board/


GCC published the book. They have never corrected that teaching.




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omelianchuk
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« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2018, 08:08:08 pm »

Quote from: Adam
Also, the book is from 1984, not 1976, so there's that.

Sorry I didn't explain better.

I was trying to show that the "unity is the cardinal doctrine teaching" goes way back with McCotter/Clark. It's part of the DNA of the group.

It has never been corrected. Dennis Clark, who co-wrte the book, has never stated publicly that he disagrees with that teaching in the book he wrote and he sat on the board of GCC for many years. Dennis is still listed as board member emeritus.

http://gccweb.org/about/gcc-board/


GCC published the book. They have never corrected that teaching.

Oh, I see now where the 1976 date is coming from.
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