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Author Topic: Leadership: Elders and Apostles  (Read 28293 times)
Huldah
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« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2021, 02:09:18 pm »

If no one is listening, then it's strange that Vince is so obsessed with this forum. We currently have about four active members, including Vince himself. Why is he expending so much effort to silence three insignificant critics on an obscure forum that virtually no one reads?
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Vince Capobianco
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« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2021, 01:45:32 pm »

Just in case anyone runs across this who is interested in the real truth, not the falsehoods that abound on these threads...healing should be the goal of every Jesus follower...so...
So many false accusations, so little time...those who have posted here...why not confront Jim in person, LIVE? 
Hi!  For anyone who would like to actually SEE & HEAR Jim McCotter address all these accusations, Jim is willing to take LIVE questions on his weekday podcasts every Friday.  It's time to actually "put your money where your mouth is".  Tomorrow and every Friday at 4pm, you can log onto the podcast on facebook or on his youtube channel...

He's ready and willing to finally address any and all accusations and questions!  You ready to ask?  You can just comment your question, or actually come on live with Jim!  Either way, it's time for the whole truth to come out!

Facebook @jimmccotterlive
youtube search for Jim McCotter Live channel or follow these links

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_-a-MOV_qjSKEpLcx9pR3g

https://www.facebook.com/JimMcCotterLIVE
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Linda
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« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2021, 02:53:34 pm »

Here’s a better idea. Read Jim’s book on Leadership. It explains a lot. I especially like the part where he and Clark say unity trumps truth. No need to ask Jim in Jimbo live because he spells it all out in his book and neither he nor Clark have ever corrected this faulty teaching.

Here’s the link.

http://www.gcxweb.org/Books/Leadership/
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margaret
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« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2021, 05:40:24 pm »

Ugh!

(thanks Linda.  That says it all)
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Vince Capobianco
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« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2021, 01:27:48 pm »

How about ASKING Jim about his views on leadership to his face and in public on a live podcast?  You could confront him with what you disagree with in his book!  Maybe he's changed his thinking, or maybe he hasn't and can make a scriptural defense of his positions, but in any event maybe you could agree to disagree and move ahead in peace, as God commands us to make every attempt to?
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Linda
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« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2021, 02:15:41 pm »

"May God give us a driving spirit of unity, a spirit that consistently burns brighter and hotter than all jealousy, envy and selfish ambition put together!

There must be unity at all cost. When believers divide over so-called doctrine, they are always trampling under foot the cardinal doctrine — UNITY." —Jim McCotter
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Huldah
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« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2021, 06:10:41 pm »

Jim has had 14 years to come here and and either apologize or vindicate himself, but he never chose to do so. Now he seems to think he can send his proxy to summon us to his venue where he's in control? He doesn't even have the guts to come here and invite us himself.

...in any event maybe you could agree to disagree and move ahead in peace, as God commands us to make every attempt to?

The command is for Christians to strive to live in unity. After experiencing the fruits of McCotter's leadership and reading the first-hand accounts of many, many people who knew him, I'm not convinced that he's even a believer. But if he is, then why aren't you urging him to come here and make peace with us?
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2021, 09:37:52 pm »


“I’m not convinced he’s [McCotter] even a believer.”
-Huldah



That same question Huldah highlighted has caught my attention this last year. The biblical concept of recognizing a tree by it’s fruit seems to beg the question. God wrote through the Old and New Testament writers to his people saying that the False Prophets were not recognized through their “spiritual” words, but their real actions. They could quote and “teach” scripture, but they didn’t humble themselves to submit to it. Here is the partial explanation from gotquestions.org:


The statement “you will know them by their fruit” (Matthew 7:16) is part of Jesus’ teaching about recognizing true followers and avoiding false prophets. Beginning with verse 15, we read this context: “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:15–20).


There seems an awful lot of thistles and thorns produced by a certain tree. Interesting that Jesus’ emphasis is not on the average believer here, but the “Spiritual” Leaders!  Why do you think he would warn his followers about this?



« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 09:52:13 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
Vince Capobianco
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« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2021, 01:32:18 pm »

I'll ask again...please refer me to the church that has exercised church discipline on Jim McCotter.  I would like to talk to those leaders to find out the facts! 
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Huldah
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« Reply #69 on: July 23, 2021, 02:40:14 pm »

For shame, Vince. You accuse us of slander, but then you implicitly slander us. You know perfectly well that no one on this website has ever accused McCotter of having been placed under church discipline. So stop acting like we made a claim we can't back up.

For that matter, can you tell us what churches McCotter has ever been a rank-and-file member of (not a leader of) since leaving GC? Has he ever placed himself under the authority of a pastor in a recognized denomination? Kind of hard for someone to be disciplined if he's not under authority, isn't it?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 02:44:18 pm by Huldah » Logged
Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #70 on: July 23, 2021, 08:42:58 pm »

Very well said, Huldah.

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For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
Vince Capobianco
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« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2021, 01:35:26 pm »

So once you have the name of the churches Jim attended regularly without being in leadership, you will reconsider the accusation that Jim has never been under authority?  Okay...I'll get that for you.  Then perhaps you'll come on and talk to Jim live.  You did say that Jim owes someone an apology, right?  I hope you will come on and be more specific about the situations where you feel Jim owes apologies!  That would be great!
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Huldah
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« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2021, 02:09:49 pm »

If he was ever under the authority of a church or churches belonging to a recognized Christian denomination, then by all means, feel free to post that information. No one on this forum has anything to fear from the truth. However, do not assume that posting the information forms a quid pro quo. As I've already made clear, I'm not interested in interacting with Jim on Facebook, and your answering my question here will not obligate me to do so. So understand that in advance.
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Huldah
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« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2021, 02:19:03 pm »

Regarding the apologies owed, all you have to do is search the name McCotter on this website to find multiple instances of people who claim McCotter has wronged them. Or to save yourself some effort, you could take advantage of Janet's hard work and research in compiling quotes from some of these people, as she has done in multiple posts. There are also comments from people who believe McCotter defrauded them on the old Decommissioned blog, as you well know, having posted there yourself. I have no questions for Jim about this, as I've already been convinced by the weight of the evidence against him. But you, Vince, who appear to trust him so unreservedly, you owe it to yourself to make sure he's worthy of your trust.
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Huldah
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« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2021, 03:00:37 pm »

One other point I forgot to make in my last two posts. An accusation would mean that I was making a positive assertion that Jim was never under authority. Although I have my suspicions, I stopped short of any actual assertion.
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Vince Capobianco
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« Reply #75 on: August 05, 2021, 01:48:12 pm »

I realize you've made up your mind based on the accusations of others.  I have not been willing to do that.  I don't think that's a good idea, ever.  Each person should be allowed to face their accusers before anyone should judge.  That is scriptural, and it is just.  I would like to say that I've been a business consultant for a long time, and I have seen this type of thing many times:

When a business that is operated by an inexperienced person, it always ends poorly.  It's clear to me (I'm sure many, including Jim would dissagree) that Jim entered the business world as a person that was not educated in business.  He probably had some good ideas, and he is very talented, but business (as they say) is business.  This is especially true when a business switches from the conceptual to the actual.  The inexperienced owner does not weigh all the costs going in, and continues to believe long after someone unattached to a "vision" would have.  This is because in business you just look at the numbers and the projections and make a decision.  I'm convinced that Jim truly believed in the projects he was involved in, however, this is not always the best thing when projections are not being met and money is being spent just to keep things going.  This causes the owner to continue to "sell" the employees on the vision, and ask for temporary help, etc.  Eventually, the money runs out, and the employees are left with the idea that the owner "cleaned up" financially and just abandoned them.  This is never the case with inexperienced or untrained businessmen.  What happens is they bleed money way too long until they are just about broke, and then the HAVE to close, which is just as much (or more) of a dissappointment to them as it is to the employees. 

It looks to me that this happened to Jim a few times, and the result, boosted by sites like this, have created a vast wealth of (in some ways) coerced accusations against him.  These accusations are really way more about Jim's inability to make his businesses work, than his character.  There really is a difference.  Anyone who has met or knows Jim knows that he is incredibly transparent and loves the Lord Jesus.  His conversations are rife with scripture to back up everything he does and says and thinks.  This is a good quality for an elder or apostle, but this does not translate into a capable businessman. 

As for the accusations about Jim during his time prior to his departure from GCI in 1986, I'm especially interested in digging into the specific accusations.  The reason I say that is because it seems many of those who accused Jim have also been personally hurt.  When something is personal, it's best to hear from both sides.  It would be awesome to have some who feel they have been wronged directly talk to Jim so they can see the same situation from Jim's perspective.  This is not something that hasn't happened.  I have been blessed to see Jim reunited with some brothers and sisters who felt wronged by him, and I was encouraged both by the boldness they had to approach Jim, and Jim's humility and concern for these people.  Jim makes himself available to anyone who wants to contact him, whether publically on his show, or via instant messenger, which is how most have contacted him.  To see wrongs addressed and reconciliation has been a blessing for me over this past year.  I hope to be able to see more in the months to come. 

This is why I admonish you and others on here to approach Jim in order to attempt to reconcile.  God became flesh and removed every obstacle between us and Him so that we could be reconcile with Him.  I believe it would be Kingdom activity if we do the same.  Perhaps now you have some insight into why I've continued to post on this site.  God wants to do amazing things.  I'm sure you agree.  Jim also does.  We should do everything we can to be at peace with each other!
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Huldah
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« Reply #76 on: August 06, 2021, 07:25:34 am »

I realize you've made up your mind based on the accusations of others.

I made up my mind based on my own experiences in a McCotterite church, living under the repressive yoke of McCotter's disciples. The fact that so many other people have written of similiar things definitely validates my own conclusions. But if we're all lying--especially those of us who are Christians, who haven't left the faith after leaving our GCx churches--then why would we even do that? Why would we speak badly of an alleged brother in Christ who (in your scenario) had never done us any harm? It makes no sense.

Each person should be allowed to face their accusers before anyone should judge.  That is scriptural, and it is just.

So where has he been since this forum was created?

I'm convinced that Jim truly believed in the projects he was involved in, however, this is not always the best thing when projections are not being met and money is being spent just to keep things going.  This causes the owner to continue to "sell" the employees on the vision, and ask for temporary help, etc.  Eventually, the money runs out, and the employees are left with the idea that the owner "cleaned up" financially and just abandoned them.


Actually Jim's business failures are not the point of this forum. They're a side note. This forum is about the teachings and history of the GCx movement.

However, since you bring it up, have you audited the books for his businesses? Have you interviewed his former employees? Until you actually know about the inner workings of the businesses, from sources other than Jim himself, you can't say with any certainty whether he was an innocent victim of his own inexperience or a cunning con man. You can have an opinion, but you can't know for sure. And even if you were exactly right, it still wouldn't negate the culture of spiritual bullying and false teaching he created at the Blitz.

 Anyone who has met or knows Jim knows that he is incredibly transparent and loves the Lord Jesus.

How can you say that, when so many people who've written here for so many years have met and him and do know him? That's the whole point! We're survivors of his movement. We know what he taught and the life-altering negative effects that have followed. For you to imply otherwise is either profoundly dishonest or else profoundly but willfully ignorant. Have you ever actually taken the time to read this forum? I don't see how you could have done so, and still write the things you write.

As for the accusations about Jim during his time prior to his departure from GCI in 1986, I'm especially interested in digging into the specific accusations.

From the time you came here, you've insisted from the very beginning that those accusations are lies. Now you're finally admitting that you haven't even read them, which is exactly what I've suspected all along. I've asked you multiple times to point out specific lies, and you've never done so.

It certainly looks like you came here with your mind firmly made up, before you ever knew anything about this forum. Now who would have poisoned your mind and filled you with so much contempt for the people here, hmmm?

Quote
This is why I admonish you and others on here to approach Jim in order to attempt to reconcile.
author=Vince Capobianco link=topic=1792.msg23095#msg23095 date=1628196492]

You don't reconcile with bad doctrine. You expose it. Admonish Jim to publicly repudiate these teachings: Unity trumps truth. Membership in GC is a lifetime commitment; you are not free to leave without permission from the elders or else being excommunicated. Submission to the elders means they get to decide things like whether you can date or marry and how much education you should get. The elders have special God-given insight that other church members lack.

By the way, I'm still waiting to hear from you about churches Jim attended after he left the Blitz. Was he ever a member of a recognized denomination? Did he serve in any churches where he wasn't a leader, under the guidance and direction of ordained pastors? You indicated that you would check on this and get back to us. Still waiting to hear what you've found out.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2021, 07:47:43 am by Huldah » Logged
Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #77 on: August 06, 2021, 08:26:23 am »

Most definitely agree with all that Huldah pointed out and challenged in the post above. If there are no genuine answers to her questions, there can be no genuine discussion here. It would simply be harassment. That violates the rules of this forum and is grounds for removal from it. Posters who continue to do so may be blocked from posting here. The site is not for re-victimizing already wounded believers by calling them all liars, but for listening and learning, supporting and healing (simply through having a voice to finally speak up).

Imagine how ludicrous and abusive it would be to call the hundreds of victims of Larry Nassar all liars.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2021, 08:28:52 am by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
Huldah
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« Reply #78 on: August 06, 2021, 10:11:43 am »

There's this quote:

It would be awesome to have some who feel they have been wronged directly talk to Jim so they can see the same situation from Jim's perspective.

juxataposed with this quote:

The site is not for re-victimizing already wounded believers by calling them all liars...

Janet is the one who has it right. It would not be awesome for some of us to hear Jim's perspective (including those of us who've been harmed indirectly, that is, by teachers trained by Jim rather than Jim himself). How awesome would it be for a victim of a mugging to talk to their assailant, so they can hear about the crime from the assailant's perspective? Same principle here.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2021, 07:12:03 am by Huldah » Logged
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