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Author Topic: Sanitized GC history  (Read 18973 times)
FeministRebel
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« on: February 21, 2013, 02:02:48 pm »

The sanitized history given to members at Stonebrook, which used to be New Life for a while... There's never any details of who these members were, what they believes, any controversies that happened. Just flowcharts, and as few details as possible. Check out the second link, in particular. Only two references to Jim, and only in the vaguest of terms, as if he had been some kind of unimportant figure.

http://www.stonebrook.org/about/history/

http://www.stonebrook.org/mediafiles/gcc-history.pdf
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Linda
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2013, 06:47:44 pm »

Thank you for these links, FeministRebel.

http://www.stonebrook.org/mediafiles/gcc-history.pdf

I have been wondering about the chart on page 5 for a few years. I first saw it, or a version of it shortly before we left, in the summer of 2005 and was, frankly, quite surprised.

We knew that there was an "odd" connection with a church in Ames. We had no idea it was the mother church. It was quite clear that there was an inner circle of "Ames" people who seemed to be involved in most of the leadership roles at ECC. In our innocence and trust (or was it just lack of discernment and foolishness?), we just thought, "Oh, how nice that a group of Christians that went to college together all happened to move to Minneapolis, stay in contact with each other, and end up at the same church."

Clearly, what we didn't know was that this group had actually been part of a campus sect that had a founding apostle with a history, and lots of negative publicity and deserving criticism, and that these people had all been "sent" up here by leadership to plant a church.

One of the great lessons I have learned via my experience with GCx is that deception comes in many forms. I always assumed that deception meant outright lies about something. What I have learned (much to my shame it took me over 40 years to learn this) is that the best way to deceive is to only tell part of the story.

Here is a good example of that from the timeline on your link. It says in the blurb on page 3:

January, 1987 Pastors Brent Knox and Mark Darling move to Minneapolis to strengthen the church there. Several dozen people from Stonebrook move with them to Minneapolis. This church quickly grows from less than a hundred to become our movement's largest church with services in four locations with a total average attendance of over 3,500 people.

Oh, really. Brent and Mark move to Minneapolis to strengthen the church there? Several dozen Stonebrook people move with them?

Silly me, I had thought that:

Evergreen Church began as a dream in the minds of pastors Brent Knox and Mark Darling. It was the late 1980’s, and they were co-pastoring a church in south Minneapolis.


Why would I think this? Oh, I don't know, possibly it was because that is the story we were told and is stated at this very minute on the church's web page!

I'm sure they could "explain" it technically in a manner in which it made it look like they were not telling a fib, but in reality, that statement misleads.

Had it said, "Evergreen started because a self-proclaimed apostle started a campus church in Ames, Iowa and disguised it as a Bible Study. He mysteriously left, but before he left, he taught the followers that they were to obey the elders he appointed. These elders told people to go to Minneapolis and take over a church that already existed. A few years later this group changed their name to Evergreen Community Church," we probably would not have attended.

Controlling the information people receive is one of the best forms of manipulation.

Always ask questions and keep asking till you get all the answers. Legitimate groups are not afraid to tell the complete truth. If you are criticized for questioning, leave immediately.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 07:41:06 pm by Linda » Logged

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Ned_Flanders
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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2013, 07:56:04 am »

The sanitized history given to members at Stonebrook, which used to be New Life for a while... There's never any details of who these members were, what they believes, any controversies that happened. Just flowcharts, and as few details as possible. Check out the second link, in particular. Only two references to Jim, and only in the vaguest of terms, as if he had been some kind of unimportant figure.

http://www.stonebrook.org/about/history/

http://www.stonebrook.org/mediafiles/gcc-history.pdf

Whatever their story is, I'm just glad I'm not a part of it anymore.  

In all fairness, though, not many organziations (Churches, businesses, whatever) are going to list ugly, unfortunate moments and failures as part of their history.  Indeed, most places would see those episodes as your problem and not theirs and GCx is no exception to that.  But we know those things happened.  

I think this message board is a great place for those of us who have come out of Great Commission and moved on.  But besides talking to people here, I definitely recommend professional counseling to get at the roots of what attracted us to a place like GCx in the first place.  
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 01:30:44 pm by Ned_Flanders » Logged
Linda
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2013, 08:34:13 am »

Ned,
Your post reminded me of something.

After we left ECC, we started attending Grace Church, a Baptist mega church. We wanted to go to church and be anonymous for a while.

Grace had just build a $50,000,000 (I think that was the price) building that seated a few thousand. About a month after the first service in that building, the elders became aware of adultery on the part of the big shot senior pastor. He was returning from a missions trip to Africa. The elders met him at the airport, escorted him to the church, had him pack up his office, and he was gone. That was a Saturday night. The congregation learned of this the next morning when he wasn't there to preach.

This caused quite an exodus from the church, as you can imagine. Because of it, the congregation struggled financially for many years. We began attending about 2 years later. I remember one service attended by a couple thousand people. A history chart was placed on the big screen. It showed how Grace was really a church plant of Bethlehem Baptist which had originally been Swedish Baptist, etc. When it got to 2004, the year of the "affair" they had a big explosion on the chart. They did not cover the sin of the pastor. They exposed it and explained how it had affected them. I found their honesty refreshing. Still do.
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Ned_Flanders
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2013, 11:23:01 am »

Ned,
Your post reminded me of something.

After we left ECC, we started attending Grace Church, a Baptist mega church. We wanted to go to church and be anonymous for a while.

Grace had just build a $50,000,000 (I think that was the price) building that seated a few thousand. About a month after the first service in that building, the elders became aware of adultery on the part of the big shot senior pastor. He was returning from a missions trip to Africa. The elders met him at the airport, escorted him to the church, had him pack up his office, and he was gone. That was a Saturday night. The congregation learned of this the next morning when he wasn't there to preach.

This caused quite an exodus from the church, as you can imagine. Because of it, the congregation struggled financially for many years. We began attending about 2 years later. I remember one service attended by a couple thousand people. A history chart was placed on the big screen. It showed how Grace was really a church plant of Bethlehem Baptist which had originally been Swedish Baptist, etc. When it got to 2004, the year of the "affair" they had a big explosion on the chart. They did not cover the sin of the pastor. They exposed it and explained how it had affected them. I found their honesty refreshing. Still do.


Linda,
And your story reminds me of a story my wife told me just this morning.  We read our daily devotional (we’re reading trough Oswald Chambers’ My Utmost for His Highest) and discussed it.  I said something about, “I’m glad I’m not a pastor… talk about a high standard to live up to!”  Then she told me about a co-worker of hers who used to go to a Church and the pastor would preach from the pulpit and basically shake his finger at everyone and tell them how bad they were.  Anyway, her co-worker went to a strip club and guess who he saw there- the pastor!  The co-worker confronted him and the pastor was devastated with shame and embarrassment.  My wife told me the co-worker said after seeing what the pastor was really all about, he hasn’t been back there since (10 years).  Of course, my question was, “Been back where since?  The Church or the strip club?”
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 11:24:37 am by Ned_Flanders » Logged
EverAStudent
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2013, 05:26:55 pm »

Linda, I interned for six months in a counseling center for a man who was pursuing ordination in a non-Baptist mainstream denomination.  Like most denominations they required that a member (and most especially an ordination candidate) hold only a membership in their denomination and resign all other church memberships. 

Well, over time I found out this man had told the IRS that he was the senior pastor of his own Baptist church with a full membership, regular church services, outreach programs, baptisms, etc., and consequently he enjoyed all the tax breaks of being a not-for-profit incorporated "church."  The problem was that the church did not exist, except on IRS paper and with business bank accounts (no members, no baptisms, no meetings, no outreach) and the non-Baptist denomination knew nothing of his "dual membership." 

When you look at the gross deceptions of men like that, tweeking a history flow chart seems somehow less problematic.  Of course, the true problem in both cases is that deception and dishonesty have become the accepted normative way to operate, and small deceptions like history charts easily expand to gross deceptions like inventing fake churches so as to defraud the IRS.  sigh...

God expects so much better of us...total honesty all the time, and to swallow our pride and admit our foibles when needed. 
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Linda
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2013, 07:56:00 pm »

Agreed.

Also, I wouldn't want someone to come away with the idea that my real issue is with a "tweaked flow chart" that probably no one ever reads anyway.

The thing that still gives me pause is that there was a whole agenda regarding my church that I was totally unaware of and a lot of people I thought I knew well were in on that agenda.

The real agenda had to do with a lot of people saying things like this, (from a talk less than a year ago):

"I followed Brent for 30 years…I got engaged and two weeks later they came to me and said, "Move to Minneapolis," and I went…"

"They came to me and said, "Move." Really, I had no idea people were told to move to different cities and follow men. And who are "they"? I would assume the Ames elders.

That I brought my children there and kept them there for so long, is the biggest regret of my life. That they had to learn of conditional friendships among Christians breaks my heart.

However, God opened our eyes to the deception and I pray he will do that for the current GC leaders and followers. And, my family is in a better place.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 07:35:44 am by Linda » Logged

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2xA Ron
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2013, 08:06:04 pm »

Thanks for sharing this.  It is interesting to see the history of the movement.  I never knew where Summitview fit in to the whole story.

Of course, the history goes on as if the blemishes in the movement's history never happened.  That seems to be standard operating procedure for the GCx, though: never publicly admit that you've made a mistake--supposedly appearing human yourself undermines the work of God.  What did surprise me some, though, was the focus of the history.  It's not about how many souls were saved, about how the gospel was spread, about lives that were changed by Christ...it's all about numbers of church plants, missions, buildings, and attendance statistics.

For me that's very depressing.  For a church that stakes its claim (at least while I was in the Rock) as being about relationship rather than religion and having a truly spiritual focus, the church's history betrays an almost totally materialistic point of view.  I can't help thinking it's all about the numbers to them and that this is why they ride members so hard for devoted attendance (keep up the numbers), evangelism (increase the numbers), financial contributions (pay for the buildings and missions to hold and increase numbers), and volunteer hours (keep down the costs).  I don't like to think this about the people I knew.  I'm sure some of them are genuinely concerned for people's spiritual wellbeing, but I suppose the overall mission of the church to simply grow numerically has deluded them into thinking that the most Christ-like focus in life is to be obsessed with doing everything possible to boost church attendance.
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FeministRebel
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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2013, 09:07:36 pm »

Quote
Whatever their story is, I'm just glad I'm not a part of it anymore.  

In all fairness, though, not many organziations (Churches, businesses, whatever) are going to list ugly, unfortunate moments and failures as part of their history.  Indeed, most places would see those episodes as your problem and not theirs and GCx is no exception to that.  But we know those things happened.  

I think this message board is a great place for those of us who have come out of Great Commission and moved on.  But besides talking to people here, I definitely recommend professional counseling to get at the roots of what attracted us to a place like GCx in the first place.  

I think the disturbing thing for me, is not so much that they won't say the scandal that happened, is that they really don't mention McCotter as any kind of real leader, or founder, or who he was... and kind of act as if he had no real importance to the movement. Just another guy who had 'the first marriage' or whatever. It's an admission without an admission. It's sort of a way to not call attention to themselves by mentioning him -- but only in passing. This way, those who'd want to know more about the church won't think "Oh, Jim McCotter... I should go google that guy, if he was the founder." Know what I mean? Smiley
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FeministRebel
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« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2013, 09:11:18 pm »

I guess they do mention him as 'one of the founders,' but in such a sanitized, generalized way... that you miss it. You don't think he was the BIG it.
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FeministRebel
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« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2013, 09:16:43 pm »

Regarding Mark Darling... I think he was in Ames, for quite some time. I recall a story told to me by one of the pastors (as advise for managing finances), that Mark lived in a trailer home, and had several jobs for years, to pay for his massive debts, because he 'knew' he otherwise couldn't be used by the Lord, or something. I don't know much else about him, other than just his abrasive personality in general. I don't recall much else about his time in Ames.
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Ned_Flanders
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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2013, 08:28:27 am »

I think the disturbing thing for me, is not so much that they won't say the scandal that happened, is that they really don't mention McCotter as any kind of real leader, or founder, or who he was... and kind of act as if he had no real importance to the movement. Just another guy who had 'the first marriage' or whatever. It's an admission without an admission. It's sort of a way to not call attention to themselves by mentioning him -- but only in passing. This way, those who'd want to know more about the church won't think "Oh, Jim McCotter... I should go google that guy, if he was the founder." Know what I mean? Smiley

I only encountered Jim McCotter one time- at "DC '86," GCx's national conference for that year.  It was my first GCx event.  Looking back, the only real issue I had with him at that time was is that his talk was so political.  But I've read about him and he really sounds like a bad leader. 
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Linda
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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2013, 02:04:01 pm »

They also forgot to mention the 1991 Statement of Error and Apology. I'm sure it just slipped their mind.
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Ned_Flanders
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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2013, 07:37:15 pm »

They also forgot to mention the 1991 Statement of Error and Apology. I'm sure it just slipped their mind.

Yeah, whatever.  That's called "We don't believe we really made any mistakes."
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« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2013, 03:38:12 am »

One of the great lessons I have learned via my experience with GCx is that deception comes in many forms. I always assumed that deception meant outright lies about something. What I have learned (much to my shame it took me over 40 years to learn this) is that the best way to deceive is to only tell part of the story.

Linda, it has also taken me a long time to figure these things out. Some of us are just born with more of a knee-jerk reaction to tell the truth, I suppose, which makes it harder for us to realize when others are being deceptive.  Undecided
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2013, 03:38:38 am »

 Looking back, the only real issue I had with him at that time was is that his talk was so political.  But I've read about him and he really sounds like a bad leader.
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DevastatedTC
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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2013, 09:22:35 am »

Politics is alive and well in GC. I saw on the Faithwalkers Midwest site that they have a seminar on it. Also, a lot of sessions on topics of masculinity, femininity, singleness and sex. Point being, same old - same old.
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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2013, 08:52:49 pm »

Of course their teaching is the "same old, same old" because overcoming stagnation requires growth, and growth requires the strength that only comes from being challenged which inspires the new study needed to meet those challenges.

GC leaders live in an environment where being intellectually challenged is considered disloyalty, thus, intellectual and spiritual stagnation...the same old same old.
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