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Author Topic: PBS report on Jim Jones / People's Temple  (Read 28821 times)
Angry
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« on: April 11, 2007, 07:51:20 am »

Has anyone out there viewed the PBS show "American Experience" which aired earlier this week?  It was an expose recounting the history of Jim Jones' upbringing, his founding of the People's Temple, the building of Jonestown, and finally the mass suicide in Jonestown.

The portion which showed actual footage of his "preaching" in the temple made me sick to my stomach as it closely reflected the totalitarian preachings of the nut jobs in charge of GC* (...of course, the People's Temple had blacks in attendance, and we all know that is NOT tollerated in GC*....)

One shot in particular that was re-enacted in our old church was when Jones threw the bible across the room and proclaimed "well, no lightning bolt struck me down, I must be on to something higher".  Our old "pastor" did the same thing with the same quote.  It was just so wrong.

GC* is alot closer to Jones' People's Temple than I ever realized.  Scary stuff.

Angry
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MamaD
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2007, 09:03:09 am »

My husband and I saw it on Monday night.

I find the Jim Jones story very sobering because I believe it reflects where  the "obey your leaders, never leave, always stay loyal to your local church, never question" preaching can lead. Certainly Jonestown could not have happened if people had not bought into the idea of unquestioning obedience to Jim Jones and others in leadership had not helped him demand this and covered up his immoral behavior.

I never thought my GCx church was even close to a Kool-aid experience, but believe that when people believe only they speak for God they are on dangerous ground and need to get off that path fast.

Don't get me wrong. Starting on a path does not mean this will end in disaster. People can always turn around and get back on course. What I mean is when you tell people they have to obey you, you are not only misrepresenting Christ, but using spiritual influence to get sensitive people to do what you want them to do. In some very sad cases, when taken much, much further, this has led to things like extreme cases like Jonestown.

Quote
One shot in particular that was re-enacted in our old church was when Jones threw the bible across the room and proclaimed "well, no lightning bolt struck me down, I must be on to something higher". Our old "pastor" did the same thing with the same quote. It was just so wrong.


As we were discussing the program, my husband mentioned the throwing of the Bible and said that he didn't think GCx was near a Jonestown experience because they still value the Word of God. So, I am shocked to hear you said a "pastor" threw the Bible. Please tell us who did that and when.
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randomous
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2007, 09:16:39 am »

Quote from: "Angry"
.of course, the People's Temple had blacks in attendance, and we all know that is NOT tollerated in GC*....)
Angry


You've gotta be kidding.
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Angry
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2007, 09:35:43 am »

MamaD- I don't want to throw a name out here, but it was in a small study group shortly before Christmas '03.  There were maybe 10 or 12 of us there that night.  A couple of us made eye contact, but no one dared say a word.

Randomous- while it is not forbidden that blacks attend gc*, think about it, how many black worshippers attended your gc* services?  When they did, were they welcomed as warmly as others?  We did ask a childhood friend of mine (black with white wife) to attend with us one Sunday morn.  He said it was one of the most uncomfortable church experiences he ever had.

Back to the PBS special - did you pick up on the sleep deprivation and signing over whole paychecks?  It was like LT all over again.

Angry
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puff of purple smoke
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2007, 10:06:18 am »

Quote from: "Angry"
MamaD- I don't want to throw a name out here, but it was in a small study group shortly before Christmas '03.  There were maybe 10 or 12 of us there that night.  A couple of us made eye contact, but no one dared say a word.

Randomous- while it is not forbidden that blacks attend gc*, think about it, how many black worshippers attended your gc* services?  When they did, were they welcomed as warmly as others?  We did ask a childhood friend of mine (black with white wife) to attend with us one Sunday morn.  He said it was one of the most uncomfortable church experiences he ever had.

Back to the PBS special - did you pick up on the sleep deprivation and signing over whole paychecks?  It was like LT all over again.

Angry

Angry, I knew of a black small group leader, a former black pastor, and also made a good (black) friend who was a part of the congregation at my GC church. Perhaps you simply lived in a part of the country where there aren't too many black people, but what you are saying is not true.
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MamaD
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2007, 10:11:43 am »

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MamaD- I don't want to throw a name out here, but it was in a small study group shortly before Christmas '03. There were maybe 10 or 12 of us there that night. A couple of us made eye contact, but no one dared say a word.


So, what was his point in throwing a Bible? Also, was this a "pastor/elder officially recognized", a GCLI guy, or a small group leader? Just wondering about the level of leadership that would do such a thing.

The sleep deprivation and turning over checks caught my ear on the Jim Jones program, but that was not something I ever experienced at GCx. Was the idea of turning over checks taught regularly at LT?

I think the part that bothered me the most about that special on Jim Jones (other than the obvious tragedy of the sexual abuse and eventual mass murder) was Jim proclaiming with great sincerity that people were free to leave while at the same time planning the demise of those Jonestown members who were headed for the plane as well as the Congressman and reporters who were headed back to tell the truth.

I was thinking about the phrase "free to leave" as it relates to GCx. My husband and I were certainly physically free to leave, and we did. The deception about using that phrase (and that phrase was written in the letter our pastors sent us after we pulled our membership) is that we were not free from certain pastors trying to control our behavior after (like 1 year after) we left.

We weren't free to say why we left without being called slanderers.

We weren't free from being shunned.

We weren't free from wondering what a pastor meant when he said, "You realize that if you go around telling people that we are wrong, we will have to defend ourselves."

We weren't free from having a pastor pull up to our house unannounced a year after we left the church and hand deliver a letter of rebuke.

But, we were free to go, sit at the feet of some excellent Bible teachers who would never throw a Bible and would to the best of their ability lead us by teaching and example to make God supreme in our lives and put no confidence in men.
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Angry
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2007, 10:21:38 am »

Randomous- while it is not forbidden that blacks attend gc*, think about it, how many black worshippers attended your gc* services?  When they did, were they welcomed as warmly as others?  We did ask a childhood friend of mine (black with white wife) to attend with us one Sunday morn.  He said it was one of the most uncomfortable church experiences he ever had.

Quote

Angry, I knew of a black small group leader, a former black pastor, and also made a good (black) friend who was a part of the congregation at my GC church. Perhaps you simply lived in a part of the country where there aren't too many black people, but what you are saying is not true.


The US census of 2000 put our city at 9.9% black.  Being a college which fought to uphold Affirmative Action in it's admission policies all the way to the US Supreme Court, there is obviously an even higher percentage of students on campus not included in the demographics.  Except for a handful of Asian attendees, we were as whitebread as it gets.

Angry
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GC Big Names
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2007, 10:50:47 am »

MamaD

Wow. So your pastor hand delivered a letter of rebuke a year after you left?

What was in the letter of rebuke? Did he say why he wanted to give it to you then?

-The next "big name" in GCM
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puff of purple smoke
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2007, 11:21:29 am »

Quote from: "Angry"
The US census of 2000 put our city at 9.9% black.  Being a college which fought to uphold Affirmative Action in it's admission policies all the way to the US Supreme Court, there is obviously an even higher percentage of students on campus not included in the demographics.  Except for a handful of Asian attendees, we were as whitebread as it gets.

But do you really think your GC church purposefully set out to not recruit black people? I highly doubt it. You are accusing them of being racists, when in reality their methods of outreach probably just appealed more to white people than black.

Maybe they just need rap worship music to appeal more to black audiences? Smiley Like this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2xyaUnkkZg
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MamaD
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2007, 11:30:47 am »

The letter of rebuke came as a result of some people at ECC discovering my husband's blog post and asking the pastors about what he wrote.

My husband blogged http://tmdugan.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_archive.html
about our reasons for leaving ECC 9 months after we left our church because people had odd ideas about why we left and he wanted to clarify. His post was dated June 16, 2006 (we left in August 2005).

The post got buried in other posts until late August when someone from ECC found it and asked the ECC pastors about it. At that point, a sermon was preached against my husband's blog post (we know that because an hour after the sermon was preached, my husband received a letter from the pastor asking him to take down his post with negative info about GCM and ECC).

My husband debated what to do, and took down the post temporarily out of deference to this pastor as he pondered what to do.

4 days after the post was taken down (it was down from early September till late December) a different pastor called my husband telling him we were slanderers and that they couldn't associate with us (in the homeschool co-op I am the volunteer director of) because of the hurt. The next day this pastor showed up at noon when my husband wasn't home and handed me a handwritten note begging us to stop the slander and removing his family from the co-op.

There was no need to deliver this in person. Perhaps, to put a positive spin on it, he thought it would be a more "personal" way to give negative information.

Also, in fairness to this pastor, he also included a first semester check for his children's tuition so as not to put a burden on the other co-op families.

At this point we had been gone over a year.

Feel free to move this comment to The Moribund Equine. :-)
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observer
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2007, 12:00:32 pm »

MamaD,

Your husband's post on GC very clearly shows what seems wrong with this group, and why my parents can neither leave it nor really remain very happy in it after 30 (!) years of GC church membership.

I have long moved on, like most GC children from my church have done.

But there is something very sad about the stagnation caused by a church that adheres to such a pastor-centric model of governance.

I think GCx churches, for long term members, leave them two choices: "leadership" or invisibility, since only "leaders" have any say in anything.
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namaste
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2007, 12:56:23 pm »

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We weren't free from having a pastor pull up to our house unannounced a year after we left the church and hand deliver a letter of rebuke.


Wow, you are certainly more restrained than I.  Had that happened to me, I'd probably have wiped my butt with that letter and returned it to the offending party.  Yeesh, that's the point where you start having your attorney draft/mail cease and desist letters.

That's just unreal.  I'm so sorry that happened.
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Om, shanti.
puff of purple smoke
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2007, 01:04:00 pm »

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Feel free to move this comment to The Moribund Equine. Smile

Hehe. Feel free to tell your story as much as you want. It's good to have you (and for a brief moment, Terry) posting again.
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Angry
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2007, 01:24:07 pm »

Puff said-
But do you really think your GC church purposefully set out to not recruit black people? I highly doubt it. You are accusing them of being racists, when in reality their methods of outreach probably just appealed more to white people than black.

There was always an underlying feeling (but never spoken), that blacks just weren't real welcome.  As I write this, it is hitting me that the handful of Asians that did attend were all younger adopted children from overseas when they were young - their parents were all white (it was the "trendy" thing to do a few years back).  I had grown up in an inner-city setting, so when I invited my friend to tag along for a service, I had never given it another thought at the time.  It was only afterwards when he admitted feeling awkward and "stared at" that I started to pick up on the "white by choice" atmosphere.

So when the Jim Jones show was aired, I picked up on the racial diversity and initially thought "that's how it should be...".  To think that Jim Jones had a higher acceptance of all races and people than GC* definitely makes the skin crawl.

When we would be sent to evangelize on the campus, there was never a strong effort given towards approaching black people as they walked past.  We were always being steered towards whites - especially if they were well dressed - i.e. had access to money.  Even if their clothing was worn "look for the tags..." ...meaning designer tags.

GC* is sick.

Angry

ps - MamaD, yes, this person was on staff with our church.  He was making the claim that there are times that "we needed to come together and follow our leaders" and not take the book so literally - "we know the true meaning of the word..."  Again, we all agree there are different levels of disfunction within the gc* churches - ours is shaping up to be one of the more extreme cases....
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randomous
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2007, 01:31:54 pm »

Puff's right about the race stuff.  I don't where Angry's getting this, but you may have noticed that churches in our country are racially segregated.  Most "evangelical" churches are white.  There are denominations that are specifically black.  Like it or not (I don't), that's the current state of things.
As for my experience, I started attending primarily because of a black small group leader I got to know, who then raised me up in life group leading n such.  Later on he'd moved, but the female small group leader was black.  We had/have several black members in our congregation, though not equal to the % of students.  I attribute that more to american cultural differences between races that even go down to worship styles.
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MamaD
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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2007, 03:02:04 pm »

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MamaD, yes, this person was on staff with our church. He was making the claim that there are times that "we needed to come together and follow our leaders" and not take the book so literally - "we know the true meaning of the word..."


Just so I understand this correctly.

A paid staff leader at a GCx church, threw a Bible across the room while making a claim that people should "follow their leaders". As he did this, there were a dozen or so witnesses to this event.

If that happened (and don't take this as me doubting your word), I don't have words to describe the horror and anger I'm feeling.

I hope none of my children were ever subjected to teaching of that sort.

You don't treat the Bible lightly. It's the Word of God. It's THE final authority.

Sola Scriptura.
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Massman
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2007, 09:14:11 pm »

Is this a serious comparison?

Pllleeeaasseee! :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
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Brian C. Massman
randomous
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2007, 10:07:29 pm »

Okay quick poll:

Does Jesus care more about

A)the way we treat a physical book that represents God's Word

or

G)How we apply the words themselves to our lives.
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puff of purple smoke
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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2007, 11:07:14 pm »

Quote from: "randomous"
Okay quick poll:

Does Jesus care more about

A)the way we treat a physical book that represents God's Word

or

G)How we apply the words themselves to our lives.

Obviously G, however, if the event happened how Angry is describing it, it's a great deal more than somebody mishandling a book. It's a leader trying to show symbolically that following leaders was more important than following the word of God. That's what's scary about it, not the actual damage to a material book.

Quote from: "Massman"
Is this a serious comparison?

Pllleeeaasseee!


Carry possible forthcoming "Is GC a cult" debates to the Moribund Equine please. I believe the point of this thread is not to equate GC to the same level as the People's Temple (which almost everyone posting here would probably agree was ridiculous), but rather to acknowledge some of the similarities authoritarian groups have. Putting the will of leaders above the word of God is one startling sign that a group has authoritarian problems, whether the group is an evangelistic group like GC or an irrefutable cult like the People's Temple. It's a step in a very bad direction.

Quote from: "Angry"
When we would be sent to evangelize on the campus, there was never a strong effort given towards approaching black people as they walked past. We were always being steered towards whites - especially if they were well dressed - i.e. had access to money. Even if their clothing was worn "look for the tags..." ...meaning designer tags.

Can you please elaborate on this? Was it explicitly stated that people wearing nice clothing should be evangelized to more vigorously? Who told you this, what level of leader?
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2007, 08:40:20 am »

Quote
Okay quick poll:

Does Jesus care more about

A)the way we treat a physical book that represents God's Word

or

G)How we apply the words themselves to our lives.



Well, that's an interesting question really.  I think lots of Christians (especially GC-types and other evangelicals) think that Christianity is mostly or all spiritual and has taken away the sacred physicality of the sacraments, the holy scriptures, and the church itself.

Look back at the Old Testament relics of worship.  What about the Ark of the Covenant, the Ten Commandments, the tabernacle, the Holy of Holies, altars, incense... etc.  Why is it today that we think the physical parts of worship are not as important as the spiritual parts of worship.

I think they are equally important, and perhaps the way we treat the PHYSICAL aspects of worship... the Bible, the church building, communion, baptism, etc.  might actually reflect our spiritual life on the inside.

The Bible isn't just a symbol or a representation.  It is our best effort at translating the inspired word of God.  It is the word of God, and to throw it across the room is disrespectful at best.  Do I treat the Bible as I should.  No, I probably don't.  

So this event (the throwing the Bible event) is disturbing:

1.  Because he is trying to say listen to me, listen to my interpretation, I am in authority over you... God has placed me there... do what I say.

and

2.  Because he seems to not think that God is holy or that His word is holy.

This is why I love that church I go to now.  When the scripture is read on Sunday, it is read out of a big shimmering gold Bible with beautiful engravings.  It is kissed and carried with reverence.  It reminds us just exactly what is in that book, and how holy God and His word are.  We stand for the reading and we listen with reverence to the ancient writings that keep us connected with the early days of Christianity.

I think that following what is in the book is equally as important as treating the book itself with reverence.  It's almost like you can't have one without the other.
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