Sovereign Grace Ministries

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Linda]

It's a phrase coined by John Piper. What he basically means by it is that we should find our satisfaction in God. Piper states it with the words: "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him." I think he coined the phrase to be edgy, but it could be misinterpreted with other implications. I guess I generally agree with his statement, but don't like the phrase "Christian hedonism".

[EverAStudent]

As Piper explains it in the sermons he posted online, it is a philosophy that originated with the atheist philosopher Ayn Rand (whom he says he idolized as a young seminary student, having read everything she ever wrote) which states that human happiness is the both the goal of and motive behind every deed done on earth.  That is why he called his spin off philosophy from Rand "hedonism."

I agree with Dr. Masters when he wrote that Christian Hedonism is an imbalanced view of Scripture and Christianity.  Scripture does not say in any passage, much less as a theme of the Bible overall, that human happiness is the ideal goal or the intended motive behind every deed done by people. 

Of course, Piper's first book, which just happened to be on that subject, was an instant hit in Christian circles when he was a new pastor.  Therefore, almost every book he has published since, and that is a lot of them, has in some way been built on or around Christian Hedonism, making the philosophy rather self serving to his celebrity.  In his book about fighting for hedonistic joy he even states that all Christians ought to measure their hearts by his standard of Christian Hedonism.  Like I already said, it is all too self serving for me. 

As Linda pointed out, though I have not listened to him for many years, lately he has apparently stopped preaching so much about that and has concentrated more on subjects actually found in the Bible.

[Linda]

Last night I was reading the latest post at sgmsurvivors. It's worth a read. What I came away with was a better understanding of how the "plurality" of elders sounds good on paper, but in reality puts an organization in a place where abuses can go unchecked for many, many years.

Brent Detwiler, the man on the "apostolic team" who wrote the documentation, wrote about a situation where CJ (making over $150,000 salary at the time, plus benefits, plus book royalties, plus speaking fees) requested airfare for his son to accompany him to a conference in Arizona. Brent tried to say that the organization providing airfare for the son was inappropriate. This caused a major conflict between Brent and CJ. I thought Brent's comment, "I was trying to avoid all conflict with you," was quite telling of what happens in high control situations. There is no meaningful accountability when people on the board find themselves in situations where they are afraid of looking rebellious, or accused of not being a team player when they challenge an idea, or trying to avoid conflict with an intense, high control "leader" (bully?).

I thought the comment about this being what happens when people blur the line of "promoting the Gospel" and "promoting a movement" was also very insightful.

Anyway, here's the link:

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=2333

[Innerlight]

I always find it interesting whether you call them elders, leadership teams, pastors, etc...they all seem to have a somewhat skewed view of  how things are done on the outside.  I work for a major consumer products company, you would know the name, and that sort of thing would never, ever fly in a corporation, with a board of directors.   

Leadership at times has a view that they should be treated on par with a CEO in the outside world (figure of speech), what they don't realize is that they have a giant misconception of how things work in the corporate world.  Salaries, secretaries, travel...are highly regulated and monitored, with a great deal of oversight. 

Yes, I know there are the Trump's of the world, and those that live large, and I don't begrudge the CEO of a company who has a private jet, they are very, very busy people, but as believers we are not to emulate the world, but live in humilty and servanthood.  My lesson from the corporate world...not from church:  If it seems wrong...it probably is!

[Linda]

This is huge. I've never been a fan of Josh Harris. This might change my mind.

http://www.covlife.org/resources/3931544-The_Fathers_Discipline

If your time is limited, just listen to the last 20 minutes. If you have the time listen to the whole thing. It will be worth your time.

So I just want to ask you a question? How could God discipline a whole church? How could God discipline a whole denomination? What possible set of circumstances could He create that would force an entire family of churches to recognize, to acknowledge, to turn away from deeply entrenched and flawed patterns of leadership and practice and church government? What could God possibly do to get an entire movement to do that? Well, let me just propose a scenario for you. He could allow a chorus of critics on the Internet to point out the most glaring failures and inconsistencies of that movement in an unrelenting way. He could allow the issues that they didn't want to deal with or didn't have the nerve to change to be aired in public. He could allow the breakdown in a relationship and the stubbornness of leaders to culminate in a set of circumstances so that all the mistakes and all the relational sins at the top levels of leadership would be written down and posted on the Internet for the entire world to read. Do you think that would work?

I'm seeing in my own life a spiritual pride and self-righteousness. For too long I had the attitude that we were the best church and the best family of churches, the best network of churches in the world. That we had a corner on sound doctrine. That we were both charismatic and reformed. That we were the best at applying truth and living out our faith and I have had a condescending attitude toward other churches. I remember having a condescending attitude towards my own parents and their church. And that's just pride. God is shaking that out of my hands. May God shake that out of all of our hands. I understand why people in our community have viewed Covenant Life as elitist and exclusive. Because I think that's been in some of our hearts.

I'm seeing an over confidence in leaders. Now, don't get me wrong, I believe we need leaders. I believe the Bible clearly states that leadership and pastors are his idea. But, I also believe in light of the doctrine of sin that we need appropriate checks and balances from the congregation. Our church government, as a movement, is broken, and it is confused and we have not moved quickly enough or decisively enough to fix it. And, for too long, we have assumed as pastors that we could handle everything on our own and we have not recognized enough the gifts and the wisdom and the work of the Holy Spirit in the congregation to help us do the work and the leadership that God has called us to do. That must change. That will change.

To any GC leader reading this. Take note. Do not ignore the discipline of the Lord.

[France]

I wonder if something like this will ever happen at GC?

[Linda]

Things have taken an interesting turn. Josh has been asked to step down from his position on the Sovereign Grace Ministries Board. At this moment, I have an amazing amount of respect for Josh Harris.

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=2454

This is amazing.

Yesterday, the board issued a statement calling the charges against CJ, are you ready...let's all say it together. S-L-A-N-D-E-R! The big issues (like the blackmailing done by CJ when he threatened to expose the sin of a leader's 12 year old son if the leader didn't do what he wanted) are not questioned. Pretty much all admit they happened. But, in light of the way the issues were presented (not in love, yada, yada, yada...), CJ was given a pass.

Here's yesterday's statement from the SGM board. Last week SG beefed up their board (used to be 4 guys, but they brought in some friends to get a handy majority). Josh was the only board member who did not sign the statement. It was 1 to 10. Josh was the 1. Pray for Josh. I'm guessing the request for him to leave Covenant Life Church will come soon. Two of CJ's brother in laws are on the board.

http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Sovereign-Grace-Board-of-Directors-announcement-regarding-CJ-Mahaney.aspx

You can follow their happenings at sgmsurvivors.com

Kris and Guy are the founders. (They are kind of our Agatha & Bertrand, and Gene & Genevieve. Ironically, their is a former pastor named Gene Prince who posts there. No relation to our Gene.) Ellie, who posted on this thread a few years ago, is a regular poster there.

Once again, shepherds are protecting other shepherds when they are supposed to be protecting the sheep.

[TerryD]

To continue the GCx/Sovereign Grace "parallel universe" theme, here's a comment http://sgmrefuge.com/2011/07/16/matt-18-and-the-documents/comment-page-1/#comment-35256 by somebody on the SGM trail that summarizes their history in a nutshell--and fits GC's story to a T, just replace "CJ" with "McCotter", and "hippies" with "entrepreneurs and hippies."

Yes, leaving a SGM church is probably the right thing to do.

As my first and possibly only contribution to this conversation, what happened at CLC[Covenant Life Church]/SGM over the years involves a lot more detail than 1-14 below. But looking at the big picture, none of it should surprise or discourage us.  

1. CJ and founders were hippies. That’s fine. We all have issues.
2. Jesus saved them. Praise God.
3. They started non-NT gatherings.
4. As saved but immature believers they started a ”church”.
5. CJ wasn’t qualified to lead but he tried and others followed without providing mature biblical accountability.
6. Without adequate training, NT qualifications, or biblical accountability he got many things wrong.
7. The big errors were wrong church government, shifting doctrine, unwise practices, legalism, and acceptance of an unqualified leader (who was certainly charismatic and earnest, but clearly not NT qualified).
8. Their structure, doctrine, and unqualified leadership produced MANY clone pastors.
9. The group (mostly unqualified by NT standards), blindly and ignorantly lead and controlled members through cult-like tactics (probably out of ignorance vs. malice).
10. The fruit of ALL of this is now coming to light.
11. God still loves CJ and all the little CJ’s.
12. They’re mostly all still not qualified to lead by NT standards.
13. Their organization needs to be dismantled, their souls need to be cared for, qualified leaders need to be found, and the church structures, doctrine, and practices need to be corrected.

Pray that God will raise up qualified godly men who have the courage to lead.

CLCIssues

[AgathaL'Orange]

Wow, it does sound very similar.   

[Linda]

As the Sovereign Grace saga continues to develop (looks to me like C. J. Mahaney will soon try to oust Josh Harris), I am concluding that there must be hundreds of "movements" of men who think they are the cat's meow. In addition, the leaders commend themselves continually for their humility and write off criticism of teaching and practice as slander. It's all there in Great Commission and Sovereign Grace and "Fill in the Blank".

The SG situation came to a head last summer when CJ admitted that he was going to expose the privately confessed sin of a minor to the church to get the kid's father to not speak up on theological differences. Blackmail. Illegal and immoral. CJ stepped down when this was exposed, removed himself from the discipline of the church he founded (Covenant Life) because the current pastor, Josh Harris, thought that this (and all other concerns mentioned in the blogosphere) was a serious matter and said God was disciplining the movement and they had better wise up and change.

CJ returned to speak at the SG pastors conference last week. Here is the text of his not so humble message. Comments in blue are from Kris, the founder (with her husband, Guy) of the SGM survivors forum.

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=3123

I am seeing a pattern of cowardice in my generation. People who won't stand up to leaders for whatever reason. Bad things happen when leaders intimidate followers into submission.

[Linda]

Brent Detwiler who exposed CJ Mahaney's attempt to blackmail a leader into agreement by threatening to expose the sin of his minor child has been excommunicated by Sovereign Grace. They resorted to Titus 3: 9-11. Warn a divisive person once, etc. It happened last night.

Here is the link to Brent's blog.

http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2011/11/14/trust-and-obey-for-theres-no-other-way-to-possibly-stay-at-c.html

Of course, Brent was not allowed to be there to state his case. (Similar to the Bill Taylor excommunication.)

"Having nothing more to do with him, or avoiding him, would include not discussing these things with him personally, reading any of his materials on blogs or Facebook.  That means you have to defriend him to avoid the temptation, do that, or following the story on anti-Sovereign Grace Ministries blogs."

It's all there, isn't it (but with the added social media shun). Even the added admonition to not read anything critical of the leaders. (Similar to that Steve Nelson talk about this forum telling people to not go here.)

People, if anyone tells you to not read information, they are trying to control you. It is not slander to disagree with theology. Do not cover for leaders. Expose and correct their bad teaching.

[EverAStudent]

Linda, yes, SGM has finally crossed the line from denomination to "Christian cult" as far as I am concerned given their absurd and patent abuse of the discplining process in this case.  Any pastor worth his pay and honor ought to know how to exegete and apply Titus 3 properly in view of Matthew 18.  To do otherwise, as SGM has done here, either makes SGM's leadership willfully sinful and disobedient or it makes them incompetent.  

Also, do note, their "conciliation" services for which SGM bill $150 an hour is also over the top greediness.  NANC-certified counselors provide the same services, usually for free as the ministers under the authority of a variety of churches across the world.  Freely given, freely give.  

[Linda]

It is astonishing, isn't it?

A couple of other points that I think are worth noting here. First, I don't even think Brent was a member of that church anymore, but they "marked" (that is apparently what they call it when you have to do the Titus 3 shunning) him anyway. Very bizarre. (I was amused to read that the forums are encouraging people to "friend" him on Facebook to mess with the leaders who told people to defriend him!)

Also, it seems to me that whether or not they like how Brent did things, the real issue for Sovereign Grace is not whether or not Brent "did this in love", but whether or not CJ has acted improperly. He did admit to blackmail, after all. That's kind of a deal!

I have no firsthand knowledge and don't even like to read the accusations, but if there was abuse of children and the pastors knew and told the parents not to go to the police, I think they are in big trouble.

Brent's handling of the situation should not be at the top of the list of things to fix. Perhaps they should take the big, old beam out of their eye first!

[Linda]

There is more trouble brewing at Sovereign Grace.

CJ left Covenant Life Church and is moving to Kentucky. Didn't want to submit to the discipline of his elders cuz they ticked him off. Apparently, his local church wasn't the happiest place on earth like he used to preach. Says he is called to start/pastor another church.

It appears as if Josh Harris and the elders may be removing Covenant Life from Sovereign Grace altogether and moving toward a system where the elders are accountable to the congregation.

Sovereign Grace Headquarters is moving out of Covenant Life Church and to Kentucky. Guess they don't want to see Josh on a daily basis. They didn't put anyone from Covenant Life Church on the board, even though I hear the bylaws say someone from that church should be on the board.

There is another confession of cover-up and hypocrisy happening tonight from Dave Harvey who is a big shot guy on the SG Board. Not sure what it is yet.

Lesson: Plurality of elders sounds good, but men are fallen and need more accountability. GC elders reading this, if you are aware of covered up sin on the part of elders, happening now or in the past, expose it. Be brave. Do the right thing. Tell the congregation.

Do not listen to an accusation against an elder unless it is confirmed by two or three witnesses. Those who sin should be reprimanded in front of the whole church; this will serve as a strong warning to others.

GC loves to quote the part about not listening to an accusation, but they forget to mention the part about if the accusation is true, the elder should be reprimanded in front of the whole church.

It is sad when shepherding groups like Sovereign Grace use their plurality of elders to cover up sin. Eventually it makes it to the congregation, one way or the other.

[Linda]

The sad saga of Sovereign Grace continues. This time it involves allegations of cover-up of sexual abuse of children.

The plaintiffs allege a conspiracy spanning more than two decades to conceal sexual abuse committed by church members. They accuse church representatives of permitting suspected pedophiles to interact with children, supplying them with free legal advice to avoid prosecution and forcing victims to meet with and "forgive" the person that had molested them.

"The facts show that the Church cared more about protecting its financial and institutional standing than about protecting children, its most vulnerable members," the lawsuit claims.

Here is the link.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/17/sovereign-grace-ministries-child-abuse_n_1974568.html

[Linda]

Here is a link to the actual lawsuit.

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2012/10/18/lawsuit-text-with-address-redacted/

Clearly, I am not implying GC is involved in any criminal activity of this nature, but if the defendant's in this lawsuit are found guilty, the idea that "pastors" are to be blindly obeyed will have caused untold heartache for many in Sovereign Grace.

[Linda]

Not sure who all is following the details of the Sovereign Grace lawsuit. If you are following, you may be interested in this link. Very sad.

http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/growing-up-in-sovereign-grace-ministries-abuse

[Linda]

Statement from Billy Graham's grandson's organization signed by many Christian leaders challenging those leaders who cover up sin. Clearly, this is in response to the Sovereign Grace cover-ups and lawsuits.

http://netgrace.org/a-public-statement-concerning-sexual-abuse-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ/

"Protecting an institution or organization rather than a living, breathing lamb is to love ministry more than God and to value a human name or institution more than the peerless name of Jesus. Dear church of Jesus Christ, we must set aside every agenda but one: to gently lead every man, woman and child into the arms of our Good Shepherd, who gave his very life to rescue us from the clutches of our enemy and from sin and death — who rose from the dead and called us to the safety of his side."

[Linda]

Just wanted to re-open this thread and give you a link to Josh Harris's message yesterday.

Quick background. Covenant Life Church was the church that C. J. Mahaney started. There was trouble a few years ago (a lawsuit that involved a cover up of sexual abuse that I believe is still on going, I have not been following it of late, but I believe it was from before Josh's time there). C. J. left a few years ago and started a church in Louisville, I believe. Covenant Life Church, in the meantime, pulled out of the Sovereign Grace "Denomination". They changed their polity to a more "normal/healthy" one where the congregation makes the major decisions and Josh remained their pastor.

Bottom line: Yesterday, Josh announced that he is going to seminary. Regent College in Vancouver, BC.

Here is the link.

http://www.covlife.org/blog/joshua_harris_sunday_remarks

Quotes of interest:

"At age 17, when most kids my age were going off to college, I started a ministry called New Attitude. I began publishing a magazine and putting on conferences for teenagers. I felt a clear sense of calling from God to speak to my generation and call them to a passionate pursuit of God. When I was 21, I wrote my first book, which met with a good deal of success.

That’s when I met C.J. Mahaney, who was the previous Senior Pastor of our church. In C.J. I found someone who understood me and who was willing to train me. He was a charismatic pastor (in all senses of the word) who pastored a mega-church, led a national network of churches, and embraced both reformed theology and charismatic practice.

Like me, C.J. got his start on the conference circuit before becoming a pastor. Like me he had never received formal theological training, and the group of churches he led, which grew out of the Jesus Movement in the 1970s, at that time didn’t place a high value on seminary training. So instead of attending seminary before becoming a pastor, I moved into C.J.’s basement, worked as an intern in the church, traveled the country with him and began preaching. It was on the job training and I soaked up everything C.J. taught me.

Seven years after I arrived at the church, I was set in as the hand-picked replacement for C.J. I was 30 years old, with no formal theological training and no formal training in organizational leadership, and I was the Senior Pastor of a 3,000 member church. That my friends is a crazy, backwards life!"

And:

"If I had been seminary trained with established convictions about church polity, pastoral leadership and other topics, I don’t think I would have been chosen to lead our church. (I might not have accepted the job!) But I believe that it was God’s purpose for me. I think it was God’s will for me to lead Covenant Life over the past 10 years—through all the challenges that we’ve faced. I don’t regret that for one minute.

And even though these past four years in particular have been painful and difficult, I believe that everything—stepping away from Sovereign Grace, the pruning of our church, strained relationships and even the lawsuit—has all been used by God to refine us. God has used it for good.

We have needed to repent and change in many ways and that is an ongoing process. God is a good Father and he disciplines those he loves. Boy, he must love us something fierce!"