Sovereign Grace Ministries

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[maranatha]

Randomous,

I wonder what thoughts you would have on this portion of scripture where Jesus said:

"When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."  Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."  The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep."
John 21:15-19

Seriously, in GCM, I always thought, "those nasty sheep.  Always wanting to fed!"

But then I saw here where Jesus told the disciples to do that very thing.

[Linda]

Terry and I like these verses on feeding the sheep from Ezekiel 34.

1 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? 3 You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. 4 You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.

7 "'Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 10 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them. 11 "'For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.

[lone gone]

ummm,  why do you think it is that GC, SG and every other authoritative leader insist that the sheep not leave?  If they stay they will be fed, if they leave they won't be fed. Stay at the table.

How did your parents treat you? Did they let you leave the table whenever you wanted? These guys are like stern fathers.... or jealous husbands.

[Linda]

These guys are like stern fathers.... or jealous husbands.

You are correct in this assessment. Only problem is, they are not our fathers or our husbands. Biblically speaking, we have one Father in heaven and the Groom is Christ. They are only lowly brothers, equals, but differently gifted...perhaps.

Referring to the John 21 verses, I once heard R.C. Sproul give a sermon on them and all I remember from the Sermon was that he would repeat the "Feed my sheep" phrase and then follow it with a "Don't". So the messge went something like:

"Feed my sheep"
"Don't entertain my sheep."
"Feed my sheep"
"Don't starve my sheep."
"Feed my sheep"
"Don't poison my sheep."

The poison one always stuck out to me.

Also, I don't know how many of you are following the SG blog, but it is quite amazing really. The posts and stories are all so familiar, but not ours! Because of that, it helps me see the faulty reasoning behind much of the authoritarian/shepherding things, but without the "emotional" baggage added by being a former member.

If you have a minute, read the membership covenant where you authorize the pastors to "pursue" you after you leave the church and also, if you leave you agree that they can inform other churches that they aren't finished with you yet (my words, I believe theirs were that they were still "disciplining" you). You also give the pastor permission to share anything he heard from you at a private counseling session with all the pastors and anyone who might be part of the solution or part of the problem (which means anyone, really!).

Anyway, if you have some free time, it's worth keeping up with.

[steelgirl]

These guys are like stern fathers.... or jealous husbands.

You are correct in this assessment. Only problem is, they are not our fathers or our husbands. Biblically speaking, we have one Father in heaven and the Groom is Christ. They are only lowly brothers, equals, but differently gifted...perhaps.

Brothers rather immature themselves in their walk.   Looking back and it got back to the elder.  A rather hard situation.  When that smallgroup disbanded I must have been too messed up.



Also, I don't know how many of you are following the SG blog, but it is quite amazing really. The posts and stories are all so familiar, but not ours! Because of that, it helps me see the faulty reasoning behind much of the authoritarian/shepherding things, but without the "emotional" baggage added by being a former member.

If you have a minute, read the membership covenant where you authorize the pastors to "pursue" you after you leave the church and also, if you leave you agree that they can inform other churches that they aren't finished with you yet (my words, I believe theirs were that they were still "disciplining" you). You also give the pastor permission to share anything he heard from you at a private counseling session with all the pastors and anyone who might be part of the solution or part of the problem (which means anyone, really!).

That is horrible.  In my present church one of the questions on the application for membership is have you been disciplined and what are the details.  There are things like immoral things worth being disciplined.   I recall somebody who more recently came out the GCM church I left 3 yrs ago wondering how to answer that.  I don't know if this church really became more abusive after a big exodus in 04.  I don't know this person that well.  Perhaps I was disciplined in a way for not having a stable job even though I worked every damn chance I had to work.  7 yrs ago one of the ways to be disciplined was refusing and I wonder if some people thought I refused to work which was anything from the truth.

[MidnightRider]

When were you in GC?

early 1980s

[steelgirl]

When were you in GC?

early 1980s

I don't recall the leaders not encouraging me to read not to study the word for myself. Some people in the group went to Bible Study Fellowship. The first message I heard when I visited in 1999 the elder encouraged people to spend time in the word.

[randomous]

Good passage maranatha.  I think we're really getting to the heart of the issue here.  I'll try to think about this, I'm traveling the next week or so.  

My initial thoughts are that I totally agree, obviously, that shepherds are responsible for the feeding of their sheep.  To look at the parable closer, how does a shepherd do that?  He takes them to a field, guides and leads them where to go, and I suppose if one's sick then he may hand-feed it.  I think the problem is that most Christians expect to be hand-fed, and somehow expect a solo pastor to feed them enough for a week in a one-hour period on sunday morning.  When you really think about it, that is just absurd.  It's obviously not going to work, and it's not what the parable describes.  So the pastors role in the parable seems to me to be to guide them to food, tell them where to eat and drink, where the good water is, get them away from the poison mushrooms, etc.  Hopefully there's some discipleship structure in a church that will allow people to help each other be fed, be accountable (help each other watch out for those shrooms), and help them learn to get into the word themselves and to pray.  

Basically what I'm trying is, any Christian who thinks that they're going to get the food they need in a one-hour a week service (assuming that's even the point of a worship service), is a seriously deceived Christian.

[lone gone]

While all scripture is good, I think that Jesus was trying to teach Peter about love for God above love for others and not about feeding sheep. In the Greek text, the words for "love" are different. (Agape vs. Phileo) Feeding the sheep is secondary to the love lesson.

Reading too much into a parable or an analogy can lead you away from the truth as I have discovered  for myself.

A yearning for "learning" can lead a person into the position of
"always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth". Seeming to know a lot about God can appear desirable and self satisfying. I should know since that is what I did for years. So did the Jews,( both Sadducees and Pharisees) so did the Scholastics of the medieval Roman church, so did "dead Orthodoxy" after the Reformation, same for the main line protestant churches of today.

The truths I am now learning that are of utmost importance are these:

A.  After being enlightened that Christ is my redeemer, that I am helpless to do anything in my own strength,and that God will bring to pass what is to be,  any importance I attach to my accomplishments fades away.

B. Single minded dependance upon God in the middle of a massively confusing world (having the faith of a little child) and becoming comfortable in the midst of uncertainty is a hard thing to learn... yet it is essential that I practice them and apply them to my interactions with others, both believers and non-believers.

[G_Prince]

Good passage maranatha.  I think we're really getting to the heart of the issue here.  I'll try to think about this, I'm traveling the next week or so.  

My initial thoughts are that I totally agree, obviously, that shepherds are responsible for the feeding of their sheep.  To look at the parable closer, how does a shepherd do that?  He takes them to a field, guides and leads them where to go, and I suppose if one's sick then he may hand-feed it.  I think the problem is that most Christians expect to be hand-fed, and somehow expect a solo pastor to feed them enough for a week in a one-hour period on sunday morning.  When you really think about it, that is just absurd.  It's obviously not going to work, and it's not what the parable describes.  So the pastors role in the parable seems to me to be to guide them to food, tell them where to eat and drink, where the good water is, get them away from the poison mushrooms, etc.  Hopefully there's some discipleship structure in a church that will allow people to help each other be fed, be accountable (help each other watch out for those shrooms), and help them learn to get into the word themselves and to pray.  

Basically what I'm trying is, any Christian who thinks that they're going to get the food they need in a one-hour a week service (assuming that's even the point of a worship service), is a seriously deceived Christian.

So I guess what is the point of Church? Why go and listen to a sermon or worship with music? If you are a "mature" Christian and can find the good pastures by yourself, why do you need a shepherd to look after you? Please don't say fellowship either. I had much better fellowship over the sloppy-joe-after-church-lunch than I actually did at church. In this line of reasoning it is much more logical to say. "Well, you have finally matured as a Christian so I guess you graduate from church. You don't need to be hand fed...you've got it all figured out. Have a nice life!"

Here is my personal experience with GCx churches. We lived on a tiny corner of the pasture which was roped of with very clear boundaries. Instead of wandering and grazing were the grass was best, we had to stay in our corner and eat the same grass Sunday after Sunday. After a while of being in the same place, we start eating other stuff...like our own poo. But, we were told, the stale, repetitive grass was much better and safer than that other grass in the rest of the pasture. Who knows what could be lurking out there…bad mushrooms, sheep from other farms, sharp rocks, wolves...terrible things. Sure, there may be some great grazing out there, but why take the risk? We need to change the pasture first, make it safe like our little trampled corner over here.

Thankfully, I spent a lot of time gazing fondly at the bigger pasture, and one day I actually stepped outside. Nothing killed me; I was shocked. Freedom and Frolicking! Here's to uninhibited grazing!

Cheers!
Gene

[steelgirl]

So I guess what is the point of Church? Why go and listen to a sermon or worship with music? If you are a "mature" Christian and can find the good pastures by yourself, why do you need a shepherd to look after you? Please don't say fellowship either. I had much better fellowship over the sloppy-joe-after-church-lunch than I actually did at church. In this line of reasoning it is much more logical to say. "Well, you have finally matured as a Christian so I guess you graduate from church. You don't need to be hand fed...you've got it all figured out. Have a nice life!"

Here is my personal experience with GCx churches. We lived on a tiny corner of the pasture which was roped of with very clear boundaries. Instead of wandering and grazing were the grass was best, we had to stay in our corner and eat the same grass Sunday after Sunday. After a while of being in the same place, we start eating other stuff...like our own poo. But, we were told, the stale, repetitive grass was much better and safer than that other grass in the rest of the pasture. Who knows what could be lurking out there…bad mushrooms, sheep from other farms, sharp rocks, wolves...terrible things. Sure, there may be some great grazing out there, but why take the risk? We need to change the pasture first, make it safe like our little trampled corner over here.

Thankfully, I spent a lot of time gazing fondly at the bigger pasture, and one day I actually stepped outside. Nothing killed me; I was shocked. Freedom and Frolicking! Here's to uninhibited grazing!

Cheers!
Gene

A lot of stuff happening to me personally for 2 yrs.  I then start learning that people are leaving for this other church.  My discipler/mentor says that a lot of people leave this campus area church to escape accoutability.  There was this rebellious side of me that wanted to check it out, especially after all the stuff.  I then go on and off to where I now attend while still attending the stale grass of GCM

[jehu]

Somebody should have told Paul that GC had grass, he would have stayed.