Sovereign Grace Survivors

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Genevieve]

Awhile ago someone posted a link that showed the similarities between GCx and Sovereign Grace. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the post again, but I found a blog similar to the old "De-Commissioned" blog: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/. The issues sound similar, even if the theology is different. (I'm not sure what the differences are, but that's what I've heard.)

It's been awhile since I felt like GCx was big and powerful, but seeing these same tactics used by another group with bigger names than GC scares me.

[Genevieve]

Here's a quote I read on this survival blog that I thought was fitting:

"H. L. Mencken said once, 'Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.'"

Most of the time I'm fine. I couldn't care less about GC. And then other times, I feel so much rage and want to slit some throats.

I think about how they're hurting people--especially women and children--and feel so angry. But at the same time, so helpless. It seems like posting here is my only recourse.

[EverAStudent]

Hi Gen,

In some ways you are helpless.  You are not in authority over their elders and yours is only one small voice.
 
On the other hand, you should not have such authority, for vengeance belongs only to the Lord.  Further, this is a spiritual battle more than anything else.  Therefore, the people are not the problem, but the spiritual forces at work in them and behind them.  Therefore, prayer is a powerful tool. 

Yes, it is all in God's hands.  We do what we can (write, pray, and persuade), but the outcome is entirely up to God.  Don't fret over how it all turns out.  Just sleep well knowing you have done what you should in the matter.

[kellie taylor]

When it was posted, I too, read through the SGM website. It kind of turned my stomach. This website has been such a blessing to me. I found it this last spring and knowing the issues I had weren't just about me has been a great relief.

Genevieve touched on the issue of rage/anger and it is something I have been struggling with. For a long time it was at God. I was so upset with Him for not being there for me when I needed Him. It has taken me a long time to understand that maybe He really was there and helped me leave. But, I had a lot of rough years after leaving and it was hard to find Him even then.

I know it would be helpful to get some counseling and I am looking into that. I never used to be an angry person, but I have found that I wrestle with that emotion a lot. It really bothers me. I have been doing a lot of praying and reading, but I feel a little stuck. Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

Kellie

[EverAStudent]

Hi Kellie.

Anger is a in-built emotion in humans.  In and of itself anger is not a sin.  But anger drives us to action.  Your decisions make the actions good or evil.  Attempt to ensure each anger-motivated action is godly and loving (love means to act in the best interest of others and of God). 

For example, do you feel angry over the posting of meaningless divorce statistics?  Then write a post to help others understand how the statistics are meaningless or even misleading.  Do you feel angry when you meet an elder who wronged you but refuses to repent?  Pray for that man's repentance and treat him with civility and kindness, as you would any other sinner on the street that you wish to see come to Christ. 

Sorry, that is not a perfect answer nor are there any quick fixes.  And it makes it so much worse when the offending parties do not apologize, or they offer insincere apologies. 

Never feed your anger and do not "let it out."  Giving vent or voice to your anger (without the motive of love and the parameter of godliness) simply leads to undisciplined angry outbursts and lets anger grow.  Squashing anger, like ripping out a weed by its roots, time and time again if need be, will stunt the advance of anger and eventually defeat it. 

Anger is an emotion, but action can overcome emotion, and purposeful godly action can turn anger to a motivator of righteous action.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I just started seeing a counselor again.  I highly recommend it.  I have anger too that has cropped up, feelings of helplessness, and some minor panic attacks.  It is somewhat connected with my parenting experiences and childhood, all of which, I believe made me more susceptible to GC's influence in my life.  I'm learning about why I am drawn to certain types of groups and people and learning to make mindful choices and behaviors.

They are wrong, and I hate that I am powerless to stop it.  I hate that I gave them a lot of money and most of all time... in some ways my most formative years that should have been spent figuring out who I was and what I should do with my life.  I stuffed all of those desires at the time and bought into "something bigger" (GCs mission).  Sadly, that was a bad decision, and part of my anger is directed towards myself.  How could I be so dumb?  How could I be so gullible?  How could I do those things to my family and myself? 

But... we are still alive and young and the world is still beautiful.  There is still God and our families and friends.  WE  ARE  FREE!  The people in GC aren't.  You, Genevieve, are free.  You could become anything you'd like to be right now.  You can parent any children you may have in freedom.  You may choose your life's path.  GC is in your past. 

Love you and hope that you can find peace in this area.  I think a righteous anger can be healthy for a time; it can help us see that something is "wrong" and to do something about it.  Like any emotion, it is very valuable.  I hope you use it to do what you need to do and after that, I hope you are free.

[Linda]

But... we are still alive and young and the world is still beautiful.  There is still God and our families and friends.  WE  ARE  FREE!  The people in GC aren't.

Amen (although some of us aren't that young anymore!)  

Getting counsel sounds wise. I especially find it interesting that your counselor is helping you understand why you are drawn to certain types of groups and helping you make mindful choices. Very interesting and I'm sure quite helpful. We can see patterns in our past. After all, my husband did grow up in a Christian commune! Not much seems weird after that.

Just yesterday, I was kicking myself for my involvement in GC. I was 40 when we started going there. We went there 10 years. I had been a Christian for 20 years when we started going there. I should have known better. I should have questioned every single red flag, but didn't till the last year or so. Worst of all, I feel I didn't protect my kids from their flawed teaching on leadership and commitment to the group. (Of course, I wasn't really aware of it at first.)

The time given to them that was taken away from my family and "real-unconditional" Christian friends makes me just sick when I think about it.

The money given to them sickens me.

All those years, week after week at small groups, and no questions asked by anyone when we left (and our family was kinda visible cuz 3 out of 7 of us did music up front every other week). We have one lasting friendship from all those invested years. Friendships there are conditional. Just sickening. (We are friends with many who left the church, but only one true relationship remains with people we know only through ECC).

They talk about the "one anothers"...love one another, etc, but what they really should be talking about is the "each others". When they say "love one another" they really mean "Those of us in GC need to love "each other". All other friendships are conditional.

But, we are free, as you say. Praise God!

[G_Prince]

I really believe that self blame is one of the last hooks GCx keeps in your skin. You can't stop wondering "why did I believe this stuff?" "And why didn't I get out earlier or stand up and say something?" The reality is that humans are naturally trusting beings; we are inclined to believe the best until it is painfully obvious that something is really effed-up. The professional spin-doctors of GCx take advantage of this instinct, so shame on them. They are to blame for preying on our innocence. It's not our fault that we trusted that our pastors know what they're are talking about, that our church wouldn't take advantage of our time and our money, that our "friends" wouldn't deceive us and drop us when we leave the church. Who could walk unaware into a GCx church and predict these scenarios? Tragically, it takes a lot of time to fully understand the ways they hide, shame and manipulate.

[Genevieve]

I don't think that anger is always bad. In fact, I'm just accepting that it's ok to be angry sometimes, that I don't have to be "nice" all the time like a good little girl. It's ok to stand up for myself and for other people. It's ok to be angry when someone hurts me.

I think that stuffing all that anger inside can be dangerous. When you can just say, "I'm angry about this" to the person that's involved, it's much easier to let it pass. You can talk it through, figure it out, apologize.

They really didn't ruin my life. I'm happy now and have been for awhile, but I'm angry about the child-like faith and belief they took from me. I'm angry about my loss of innocence. I came to them as a girl excited about doing something for God with big dreams about what that could be. I left them a confused woman, those dreams in shatters at my feet, without any trace of the hopeful girl I had been.

And I think deserves some anger and some tears.

Plus, I think part of what keeps me angry is that I can't talk to the people who are involved. I still have close ties to GC people that I can't break. I can't be angry about this with them and deal with it. Instead, I have to pretend everything's ok, that what they're part of doesn't bother me. I have to smile sweetly when deep inside I feel like raising the black flag.

It's not like I really think I can change things, which also makes me angry. I don't want to "have authority" over them, as EAS mentioned. I just want them to be stopped. And usually there's a way to try to stop injustice and evil in the world: boycotting, writing letters, or calling the cops.

Here, there's nothing. They know the criticisms against them. Some people might be trying to address them; others aren't. And the machine keeps cranking out more messed up people with no way to throw a wrench in the chains, all in the name of Christ and believing they're really doing good in this world.

I agree that the sun must go down on our anger (we have to be able to move on) and that it's unhealthy for it to consume us. But a little anger is healthy, especially when we've seen what we've all seen and know what we know. I think every once in awhile, some anger about what's going on is good. If we're not angry for ourselves, then at least for what they're doing to other people.

To the ships!

[Linda]

I really believe that self blame is one of the last hooks GCx keeps in your skin. You can't stop wondering "why did I believe this stuff?" "And why didn't I get out earlier or stand up and say something?"

This is a really interesting point.

[still confused]

Would you want to stay "friends" with someone who was saying all of this stuff about you?

Two options:
1. Leave + voice your concerns + agree to disagree if an agreement can't be reached + move on = friendships will remain
2. Leave, drag all everyone in GC down as if they are all to blame, then expect everyone to forgive you for your "words out of anger," but don't forgive anyone else for the mistakes they have made = what do you think the result is going to be? friendship? yeah right!

If I try to break down (heck even approach) the 10 foot wall that has been built, I will be accused of being fake or being judgemental for asking how a brother or sister is doing.

You all win.

[Linda]

still confused,

I'm not sure what you're saying? What do you mean by this? "drag all everyone in GC down as if they are all to blame"

Let me try to sum up my story in a few steps. Maybe that will help.

1. Our GC church asked us to do something that we believed was un-biblical.
2. We met with our leaders to make sure we hadn't misunderstood.
3. When we realized that they, in fact, were asking us to do something that was un-biblical we told them we would be leaving.
4. When we told them we would be leaving, a founding pastor verbally threatened us by saying that if we told people we thought what they believed was un-biblical they would "defend" themselves (physical violence, lawsuit, gossip, who knew what that meant, but a vague threat like that certainly wasn't befitting a pastor).
5. We didn't immediately tell people why we left.
6. We learned that pastors were telling members reasons for our departure that were not our reasons for leaving, so 9 months after our departure, my husband blogged our reasons to his 7 blog readers.
7. 3 months after that (one year after we left) three of our former pastors rebuked us in writing and then decided that shunning was the proper response.

In between all this, they sent our grown children copies of a personal letter they had written to us in an attempt to discredit us.

[Linda]

still confused,

Reflecting more on your post, I had a few more thoughts. Regarding your first point, this would be the way to go if the issues were things like the color of the carpet (although it would be pretty lame to argue and leave over that), rock music, whether or not you should homeschool. In general, things that the Bible doesn't address that fall into the category of preferences.

About your second point. This is full of a lot of assumptions. It seems like you are saying that the people posting here are unforgiving mudslingers who deserve to be shunned. Without knowing any of us, you have painted us with a very broad and negative brush. Has it ever occurred to you that the people posting on GCM warning might believe that God is asking them to warn people about some of the theological flaws of this organization that they know from first hand experience? What you call anger and unforgiveness, I might call warning, depending on the situation.

Finally, you have given two options. I'm sure you realize that there are many more options. You seem to have placed everyone posting here into one of these categories.

I submit a third to you. There are dozens more.

3. Voice your concerns to the leaders, leave with a heavy heart, discover that a significant number of "friends" that you met at church don't have time for you any more, find out that the leaders tried to put a wedge between you and your children (Brent, Spencer, Jeff, Tim, Bill, Mike, Ken, did you all know that a copy of the personal letter you sent Terry and I when we left was sent to our two oldest kids and your names were all on that letter?), find out people have been told not to ask you why you left, learn that the bad theology is a national problem throughout the organization and that they have a 1991 statement of error that spells out everything that you learned through experience.

"Forgiving for mistakes" is one thing. Letting false teaching go without correcting it is another. We tried to correct. Now it's time to warn.

[EverAStudent]

Linda, there is a bit more implied in the post by poster "still confused."  He challenges the sincerity of our lament that our friends chose to shun us upon leaving instead of remaining our friends. 

I know that to anyone who has attended other churches it seems "natural" that a person can leave one church, keep all their friends, and still attend a new church and add in new friends.  But in GC-think the leadership has been blinded by the mantra that there is only one correct church (and they are it) so anyone who leaves has essentially fallen.  In their minds they cannot grasp that someone who leaves/falls would want to keep their old friends and help their old friends.

Try thinking of it this way.  When we left GC, in their minds we left the only correct church.  We thus became enemies of the church, in their minds, and so we became enemies of GC.  One does not keep enemies as dear friends, do they?  Thus they see our appeals for repentance and reconciliation and our warnings as insincere mocking, and so they mock back.  It would never cross their minds that GC did anything for which they have yet to repent, and most particularly to repent to someone they see as an enemy. 

[still confused]

Linda,

I do believe that those things happened to you and I’m truly sorry that things like that occurred. I agree with the severity of those allegations and also agree that it should not be allowed to happen. So in summary – I do not disagree with you!

This is my issue with this blog… Many times people have said things like this:

“I am here to warn people that GC has a history of shepherding and error, that GC leaders in recent years have told people to give the controls of their lives to the men God works through, and that GC leaders personally tried to insert themselves between me and my children--even to the extent of sending them a copy of a personal letter written to my husband and me that contained negative opinions of us.” – you actually said this in an earlier post.

I don’t disagree with anything you said (especially the second half of the above quote), but what I disagree with are blanket statements about GC that don’t have to do with your personal situation (first part of the above quote). It is completely irrational and unfair to portray every GC leader, member, and visitor as an enemy to all who have had bad experiences. Or to speak about them in ways that make it seem that they are being controlled, brainwashed and abused when you have not been in every GC church and spoken to every GC leaders. All I’m trying to say is that it just hurts and I’m one of those people who wants to continue my relationships with people who have left, but it is impossible to do that when the fire is continually fueled here on this site.

Brent, Spencer, Jeff, Tim, Bill, Mike, Ken – that’s who you have issues with. And I believe those things happened and I would be just as upset if they happened to me –because that is WRONG! But to come on here and say that’s true for all of GC is also wrong. It squanders any hope of things changing because no matter what others do from within to keep this from happening again, it won’t be good enough. I am perpetually frustrated when talking to others because they seem to take “evidence” from this site and correlate it with their own experiences (which have been personal issues with brothers and sisters individually, not leadership) to make it into this much larger issue.

And I know the response people will have to my post, “We are here to talk about our experiences with GC and to help prevent them from happening again.” – I know, and I think it is good to talk about it – but can anyone please acknowledge that there are good people in GC who love the Lord and genuinely love other people? That there might be some good that GC is doing?

I took a break from GC to look at their practices/theology/past etc… and I talked to my pastors/leaders and others. They acknowledged the past and told me in great detail what they have done to prevent things like that from happening again. I am staying with my GC church because I love the people that I serve along side of. It’s not because I think we are the best or the only church in our area who is sharing the gospel. GC has not replaced my family or my friends who are non-believers… I simply want God to be the priority in my life and love the fact that I can do that with my best friends? Is that wrong?

I don’t know the answer or solution, but I just know this site is not helping things change. It is just broadening the gap between those that have left and those that have stayed. In tears I write to you all, it hurts because I still very much care about my brothers and sisters that have left.

I don’t know.

And everAstudent, I appreciate your comment but I assure you that is not my thinking or where I'm coming from. I just want my friends back - not to come back to attend my church, but to stop this fighting. That is all.

[still confused]

But this is my point: GC as a whole didn't hurt you though - the people that you were in GC with at the time hurt you! I would much rather hear people say, "Mark Darling hurt me" than to say "GC hurt me" because I am a part of GC and I didn't hurt you - I don't even know you! Biblically, we are called to take up our offenses with one another. And I understand that there were issues with communicating to elders and not heading to correction etc.. but still - that was with those individuals - not every leader, member, guest of GC.

I guess all I'm trying to get at is that I understand that people were hurt and that GC had some fundamental problems with its structure early on, but I don't know what you want us current members to do. An apology letter was written, leaders stepped down, things changed for things that happened in the past. and I know in current circumstances, people have tried to apologize for wrongdoings that have happened recently and even changed some policies, leaders at least at my church) - but they are blown off as insincere or not good enough.

If GC were to disband - I am 100% confident that people would still be on here blogging about the new church organization that would be formed to replace it because it isn't the organization that people have issues with.... it is the people.

[still confused]

Sorry just one more thing.

I fully admit that I don't know all of your stories personally. This is not meant in anyway to discredit your hurts, pains, frustrations etc... I just at a point where I feel helpless. I too am frustrated by the past of GC, but I truly don't see that at my church at all... and no, I'm not brainwashed/being controlled - and I hope you can see my attempts to really understand and not come from a place of pride. I do not think my church is the "best church ever" - I fully see the flaws of the people leading in my church, but they are not the things you have been discussing on this site. I love the people I am serving alongside of - that's it.

[Linda]

I am here to warn people that GC has a history of shepherding and error, that GC leaders in recent years have told people to give the controls of their lives to the men God works through, and that GC leaders personally tried to insert themselves between me and my children--even to the extent of sending them a copy of a personal letter written to my husband and me that contained negative opinions of us.” – you actually said this in an earlier post.

I don’t disagree with anything you said (especially the second half of the above quote), but what I disagree with are blanket statements about GC that don’t have to do with your personal situation (first part of the above quote). It is completely irrational and unfair to portray every GC leader, member, and visitor as an enemy to all who have had bad experiences. Or to speak about them in ways that make it seem that they are being controlled, brainwashed and abused when you have not been in every GC church and spoken to every GC leaders. All I’m trying to say is that it just hurts and I’m one of those people who wants to continue my relationships with people who have left, but it is impossible to do that when the fire is continually fueled here on this site.

Here's the deal. The statement I made above is exactly why I post and is not at all a blanket statement about the character or beliefs of every GC leader. (I truly believe and know many GC leaders who I believe love God and their families with all their heart.)

It is a statement about the theology and practice of GC as based on their public local and national teaching and writing.

GC does have a history of shepherding. Do you disagree with that?

GC leaders at national conventions like Faithwalkers and HSLT have called for things like lifetime commitment to the local GC church. Likened leaving to divorce, etc.

Also, to clarify my point about the letter sent to our children. That letter arrived AFTER we had left. I truly believe that many of the people on that list had no idea that letter was sent to our kids and would have disapproved had they known. No one had signed it personally, so whoever sent it might have been the only one who knew it was sent. The letter, by the way, was not "hurtful" to me. It was actually helpful. It helped me realize that we had not been mistaken in our decision to leave, that this group had some serious theological problems and tries to get between parents and their children (something they were called on and apologized for in the 1991 statement.)

Keep in mind that our communication involved two members of the national board of the organization who go back to the days of McCotter and speak locally and nationally.

An apology letter was written, leaders stepped down, things changed for things that happened in the past. and I know in current circumstances, people have tried to apologize for wrongdoings that have happened recently and even changed some policies, leaders at least at my church) - but they are blown off as insincere or not good enough.

If GC were to disband - I am 100% confident that people would still be on here blogging about the new church organization that would be formed to replace it because it isn't the organization that people have issues with.... it is the people.

I'm not aware of any apologies that combined with change that have been blown off as insincere or not good enough. That would be sad.

That last paragraph was kind of a blanket attack on the posters here. I take from it that you don't understand the difference between personal offenses (which should be handled privately) and public false teaching (which should be identified and corrected).

My problem is NOT with GC people. It is with GC theology.

[Genevieve]

Still confused,
No one in particular hurt me. I still have friends in GC. We left and kept most of our friends. So, there's not a person that I'm angry with. We've said over and over that, on the whole, the people in GC are good.

I think part of what's behind your words is the belief that people here left because of personal grievances, that we're here b/c some pastor looked at us wrong and pissed us off. That's not true, but I think it's a common line given by some pastors about why this forum exists.

True, there are pastors I dislike b/c they represent--to me--the bad strains in GC, but I wasn't ever close enough to any of them for them to hurt my feelings or give me some bad advice. I dislike the culture some of these pastors help create, but it's not personal.

We've also tried to say that every church is different. Some are more "old school" than others. But the issues we're addressing haven't happened just one place or at just a particular time. That's what makes this forum work; people from all over the country in the past and in the present have experienced some of these issues and want to talk about it.

So, if we can agree that the people are good and that some of the churches are good, what are we against?

Here's what I'm against (this list will be different for everyone):

--The high-pressure culture ("Do this our, er, I mean, God's way!")
--The system for raising leaders
--The amount of authority leaders have at a young age
--The lack of seminary training
--The theology about women and how that theology is put into practice

I also dislike some of the giving, parenting, and dating practices, but I could live with some of these if there wasn't so much pressure to conform to these practices (see high-pressure culture above).

So even though the leaders and people throughout the organization have good intentions, they end up doing bad things b/c of the system (culture) they're in.

What I want to know is, how can we change the system? I hope that it's changing from within. I'm happy to hear that your pastors were up front with you. That's a good sign for the church you're in.

[still confused]

Genevieve,
First of all I want to say thank you for your response. There have been very few times I have felt encouraged/not frustrated when corresponding with ex-members. If more people were able to respond in the way you did - I think actual conversations could take place among current and past members.

What I want to know is, how can we change the system? I hope that it's changing from within. I'm happy to hear that your pastors were up front with you. That's a good sign for the church you're in.

I truly think things are going well at the church I'm at - are we perfect? definitely not!   but in my small group we have openly talked about issues posted on this site and I'm in a small group with quite a few "leaders" in the church. I hope people will be encouraged by this.