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Author Topic: 10 Reasons I Don't Believe Suzanne van Dyck  (Read 4193 times)
Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2018, 07:17:56 am »


Greentruth, 

"But what still confuses me is why do those who claim to walk with God, link hands with those that don’t want to follow God, in trying to cause divisions in the Church."


This.  I am literally crying while typing this.  And does anyone care about lost souls, or only wallowing in their bitterness, blinded to the eternal damage being done?

This is a harsh post for me, but it needs to be said. 
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2018, 08:21:38 am »

Did it ever occur to you that some of the atheists and agnostics here were our friends and relatives while we were in the GCx movement?  


Did it ever occur to you we might still love them and don’t just abandon them like GCxers did when they left?


I would expect that you as a good quality GCx member think we  as Christians should excommunicate and refuse to associate with those we love who have gone a different way faith-wise, but that’s not what we do here.  

Cry all you want.  It’s a shame you haven’t directed  one tear though for the reasons why people who were raised at the knee of core GCx members would leave the faith in the first place.  Why don’t you cry for what women are saying happened to them as young women?  Why don’t you cry for those excommunicated as children because the pastor didn’t like the questions or the attitudes of their parents?

I know you’ve added one more  word to my “GCX shudder list” along with “zeal”, “band of brothers”, “counsel”, “wise counsel”, “obey your leaders”, “winsome”, “unity”, and “plant your flag and die.”

The word you’ve made cringe worthy is “truth”.  The way you’ve set yourself up as God’s right handmaiden, the arbiter of all truth.  Your tears over what “grieves God” and your “heavy heart” and all of your church-ese that you speak.  The way you wield your self righteousness and Bible verses as baseball bats to beat people into submission and then your tears always the tears.



Here’s the difference between a Christianity that doesn’t abandon people and GCx.  In GCx if you leave, you’re done.  The loyalty goes one way.  The people towards the church.  But in the kinder Christian world, kindness and love mean you don’t leave anyone behind.  GCx says you plant your flag and die.  We say, follow your conscience and live in freedom.  GCx says don’t question, watch your attitude, submit.  We say be authentic.  Don’t lie about your faith.  Don’t pretend.  GCx says appearance is important to win souls.  We say faking it raises up people who will be disillusioned when the curtain is pulled back.

GCx is not for authentic true faith seeking that asks hard questions and wrestles with the deep, age old questions Christians and God-seekers ask.  They treat Christianity like an infection.  Transmit it to others.  Virus enters, GCx dna inserted, automatons released to infect someone else.  Step in line or go away.  It doesn’t surprise me one bit you think we should cut off those people here who aren’t Christians anymore after GCx chewed them up and spit them out.  


And no, they don’t teach chewing people up and spitting them out in seminary.


« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 08:51:24 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2018, 08:35:31 am »

And another thing.  Just do a truly independent investigation and deal with it.

I certainly have no stake here other than just get the truth out, whatever that is.


I have no desire to destroy anything— an accusation that has been wielded again and again.   I’m just here saying stop throwing concern-troll potshots at people who simply want a fair and impartial, unbiased investigation.

Save your concern for reality and not things people are supposedly thinking or wanting.  
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 08:37:51 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2018, 09:04:29 am »

Did it ever occur to you that some of the atheists and agnostics here were our friends and relatives while we were in the GCx movement?  


Did it ever occur to you we might still love them and don’t just abandon them like GCxers did when they left?


I would expect that you as a good quality GCx member think we  as Christians should excommunicate and refuse to associate with those we love who have gone a different way faith-wise, but that’s not what we do here.  

Cry all you want.  It’s a shame you haven’t directed  one tear though for the reasons why people who were raised at the knee of core GCx members would leave the faith in the first place.  Why don’t you cry for what women are saying happened to them as young women?  Why don’t you cry for those excommunicated as children because the pastor didn’t like the questions or the attitudes of their parents?

I know you’ve added one more  word to my “GCX shudder list” along with “zeal”, “band of brothers”, “counsel”, “wise counsel”, “obey your leaders”, “winsome”, “unity”, and “plant your flag and die.”

The word you’ve made cringe worthy is “truth”.  The way you’ve set yourself up as God’s right handmaiden, the arbiter of all truth.  Your tears over what “grieves God” and your “heavy heart” and all of your church-ese that you speak.  The way you wield your self righteousness and Bible verses as baseball bats to beat people into submission and then your tears always the tears.



Here’s the difference between a Christianity that doesn’t abandon people and GCx.  In GCx if you leave, you’re done.  The loyalty goes one way.  The people towards the church.  But in the kinder Christian world, kindness and love mean you don’t leave anyone behind.  GCx says you plant your flag and die.  We say, follow your conscience and live in freedom.  GCx says don’t question, watch your attitude, submit.  We say be authentic.  Don’t lie about your faith.  Don’t pretend.  GCx says appearance is important to win souls.  We say faking it raises up people who will be disillusioned when the curtain is pulled back.

GCx is not for authentic true faith seeking that asks hard questions and wrestles with the deep, age old questions Christians and God-seekers ask.  They treat Christianity like an infection.  Transmit it to others.  Virus enters, GCx dna inserted, automatons released to infect someone else.  Step in line or go away.  It doesn’t surprise me one bit you think we should cut off those people here who aren’t Christians anymore after GCx chewed them up and spit them out.  


And no, they don’t teach chewing people up and spitting them out in seminary.




Never did I say or believe people should be cut off...quite the opposite.  My concern has been and will be that NO ONE HERE cares that there are people that have walked away from God.  If people cared they would be speaking love and truth into their lives, but instead it is just bitterness and hate towards the church which drives people further away from the Peace and salvation that only comes from God.   
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2018, 09:13:35 am »

Wrong.

You are saying I don’t care if people are Christians or lost their faith.

I do.

You think not telling the truth and hiding things will make Christianity look better and make more people become Christians.

I’m saying if you treat Christianity like an infection instead of a holistic lifestyle, relationship,  and authentic community with integrity, you risk actually LOSING people for Christ because when they see what you’ve been hiding they become disillusioned.

This is WHY we warn and WHY we care.  


I’ve actually given up on GCx, and did long ago.  But to be clear, my silence and giving up over the futile cause of an above board, transparent, authentic GCx-world is not to be misconstrued as apathy over souls and lives.  Quite the contrary.  And I know this to be true for many here.  







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Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2018, 09:37:11 am »

Did it ever occur to you that some of the atheists and agnostics here were our friends and relatives while we were in the GCx movement?  


Did it ever occur to you we might still love them and don’t just abandon them like GCxers did when they left?


I would expect that you as a good quality GCx member think we  as Christians should excommunicate and refuse to associate with those we love who have gone a different way faith-wise, but that’s not what we do here.  

Cry all you want.  It’s a shame you haven’t directed  one tear though for the reasons why people who were raised at the knee of core GCx members would leave the faith in the first place.  Why don’t you cry for what women are saying happened to them as young women?  Why don’t you cry for those excommunicated as children because the pastor didn’t like the questions or the attitudes of their parents?

I know you’ve added one more  word to my “GCX shudder list” along with “zeal”, “band of brothers”, “counsel”, “wise counsel”, “obey your leaders”, “winsome”, “unity”, and “plant your flag and die.”

The word you’ve made cringe worthy is “truth”.  The way you’ve set yourself up as God’s right handmaiden, the arbiter of all truth.  Your tears over what “grieves God” and your “heavy heart” and all of your church-ese that you speak.  The way you wield your self righteousness and Bible verses as baseball bats to beat people into submission and then your tears always the tears.



Here’s the difference between a Christianity that doesn’t abandon people and GCx.  In GCx if you leave, you’re done.  The loyalty goes one way.  The people towards the church.  But in the kinder Christian world, kindness and love mean you don’t leave anyone behind.  GCx says you plant your flag and die.  We say, follow your conscience and live in freedom.  GCx says don’t question, watch your attitude, submit.  We say be authentic.  Don’t lie about your faith.  Don’t pretend.  GCx says appearance is important to win souls.  We say faking it raises up people who will be disillusioned when the curtain is pulled back.

GCx is not for authentic true faith seeking that asks hard questions and wrestles with the deep, age old questions Christians and God-seekers ask.  They treat Christianity like an infection.  Transmit it to others.  Virus enters, GCx dna inserted, automatons released to infect someone else.  Step in line or go away.  It doesn’t surprise me one bit you think we should cut off those people here who aren’t Christians anymore after GCx chewed them up and spit them out.  


And no, they don’t teach chewing people up and spitting them out in seminary.




This virus you speak of, this infection, is the Holy Spirit.  This is why I can meet Christians of different denominations, gender, age, and cultures, and we speak the exact same language. I have had some of my best conversations with an elderly man from another non GC church, we can talk like we are siblings from the same family, how beautiful.  All because we have the same Holy Spirit inside of us.  Have you ever met someone in a cult?  You find out they are a Christian, after conversation you can quickly realize that they are not speaking the same language, they are not of the same family of believers.    

It is a beautiful phenomenon of Christ followers, we speak the same language, all over the world, across cultures, across many denominations, this is Christ's church and it is such an honor to be a part of it.  I hope to carry this infection to the end, and I hope to spread my "germs" til the day I die, because absolutely nothing in this world compares to what Christ does for me, on the cross, and every second of my life.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 05:46:58 am by Godtrumpsall » Logged
Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2018, 09:40:41 am »

Wrong.

You are saying I don’t care if people are Christians or lost their faith.

I do.

You think not telling the truth and hiding things will make Christianity look better and make more people become Christians.

I’m saying if you treat Christianity like an infection instead of a holistic lifestyle, relationship,  and authentic community with integrity, you risk actually LOSING people for Christ because when they see what you’ve been hiding they become disillusioned.

This is WHY we warn and WHY we care.  


I’ve actually given up on GCx, and did long ago.  But to be clear, my silence and giving up over the futile cause of an above board, transparent, authentic GCx-world is not to be misconstrued as apathy over souls and lives.  Quite the contrary.  And I know this to be true for many here.  









I am not implying that you personally don't care.  But what happens in the forum is telling of the focus.  Do you think what happens here will bring anyone to Christ?  Has this forum impacted a non believer to turn to Christ?
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2018, 09:54:46 am »

1.  Have I ever met someone in a cult?

Why, yes, I have in fact.  Smiley. Many!

2.  And has your behavior made people want to stay in the faith?  
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 09:59:21 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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Greentruth
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« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2018, 09:56:05 am »

Thank You for that very well stated truth. The first Church I attended after giving my life to Christ was an E Free. Was baptized Catholic and confirmed Lutheran. Worshipped and served at GC Church over twenty years, and now back at an E Free after moving. And I know exactly what your saying, that loving, peaceful, caring language is unmistakable.
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« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2018, 11:37:23 am »

Two questions.

1. Will your faith be damaged if the allegations are shown to be true?

2. How do you process the idea that Suzanne is not the only one who has stepped forward with allegations? (Or, to put it another way, how do you process Victim A and Victim C's stories?)
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Greentruth
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« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2018, 12:02:25 pm »

Two questions.

1. Will your faith be damaged if the allegations are shown to be true?

2. How do you process the idea that Suzanne is not the only one who has stepped forward with allegations? (Or, to put it another way, how do you process Victim A and Victim C's stories?)

Why would they? You could put a gun to my head and I wouldn’t allow you to have any manipulation to my relationship with Jesus.

Most of all accusations have so many unbelievable aspects it’s just plain simply hard to believe. They have been posted and shared over and over again, yet Suzanne or other supposed victims have not answered to. I don’t know MD that close, and actually knew Suzanne and John much better. Love them, miss them. But obvious is obviously what I assume. Especially when it is being tried and judged in this form and on social media. It’s the most hurtful and sadly constructed issue I have ever seen.

You say you want independent investigation, yet ignored and mocked a chance to have that with the council ECC put in place. The reasoning behind it was to say the least, childish. No matter which way you look at it, the only good reason not to go along with the investigation was that Some talked Suzanne out of it. You all are so well versed at speculating that I will allow you to speculate on the reasoning again, and again,etc etc
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« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2018, 01:29:11 pm »

Thanks for writing this, Agatha.  I just want to say that I respect the agnostics/atheists/Buddhists/whoever on this forum and have no agenda for their spiritual journey.  I really enjoy being a part of the kinder Christian world and am happy to commune with all.


Did it ever occur to you that some of the atheists and agnostics here were our friends and relatives while we were in the GCx movement?  


Did it ever occur to you we might still love them and don’t just abandon them like GCxers did when they left?


I would expect that you as a good quality GCx member think we  as Christians should excommunicate and refuse to associate with those we love who have gone a different way faith-wise, but that’s not what we do here.  

Cry all you want.  It’s a shame you haven’t directed  one tear though for the reasons why people who were raised at the knee of core GCx members would leave the faith in the first place.  Why don’t you cry for what women are saying happened to them as young women?  Why don’t you cry for those excommunicated as children because the pastor didn’t like the questions or the attitudes of their parents?

I know you’ve added one more  word to my “GCX shudder list” along with “zeal”, “band of brothers”, “counsel”, “wise counsel”, “obey your leaders”, “winsome”, “unity”, and “plant your flag and die.”

The word you’ve made cringe worthy is “truth”.  The way you’ve set yourself up as God’s right handmaiden, the arbiter of all truth.  Your tears over what “grieves God” and your “heavy heart” and all of your church-ese that you speak.  The way you wield your self righteousness and Bible verses as baseball bats to beat people into submission and then your tears always the tears.



Here’s the difference between a Christianity that doesn’t abandon people and GCx.  In GCx if you leave, you’re done.  The loyalty goes one way.  The people towards the church.  But in the kinder Christian world, kindness and love mean you don’t leave anyone behind.  GCx says you plant your flag and die.  We say, follow your conscience and live in freedom.  GCx says don’t question, watch your attitude, submit.  We say be authentic.  Don’t lie about your faith.  Don’t pretend.  GCx says appearance is important to win souls.  We say faking it raises up people who will be disillusioned when the curtain is pulled back.

GCx is not for authentic true faith seeking that asks hard questions and wrestles with the deep, age old questions Christians and God-seekers ask.  They treat Christianity like an infection.  Transmit it to others.  Virus enters, GCx dna inserted, automatons released to infect someone else.  Step in line or go away.  It doesn’t surprise me one bit you think we should cut off those people here who aren’t Christians anymore after GCx chewed them up and spit them out.  


And no, they don’t teach chewing people up and spitting them out in seminary.



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Greentruth
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« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2018, 07:55:35 pm »

Agatha? Wow chew up and spit out? Plant flag and die? I know many who have moved on from ECC, myself included, who didn’t feel excommunicated. It was actually taught to follow your heart after prayer, council and reading the word. I don’t know your full story, but I think it was from the beginning of GC. I understand some changes where made, just as they are in most churches or religion. But it blows my mind to even contemplate holding a grudge for so long. And I don’t think it’s helping anyone, when you encourage the same to others. Worse than planting a flag in Christ Church that reaches out to the lost with Jesus truth. I did at ECC for over twenty years. I never saw anything even close to what you claim.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2018, 10:25:10 pm »

No I wasn’t there in the beginning.  And I’m not particulalry angry or bitter.

Obviously chew up and spot out is a metaphor.  I view it as chew up=abuse/authoritarian structure/burn people out and spit out=excommunication/letting friends go/never contacting again/not seeking to change or right wrongs.

Im actually blissfully happy outside of GCx.  Leaving, as I’ve stated before, changed our lives— my husband’s, children’s, and mine. 

As shocking as the language might seem, for some people their GCx experience was devastating.  For others a mere blip of time thet could have been better spent somewhere else.


I’m grateful to be free to worship God outside of GCx.
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Greentruth
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« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2018, 07:29:43 am »

No I wasn’t there in the beginning.  And I’m not particulalry angry or bitter.

Obviously chew up and spot out is a metaphor.  I view it as chew up=abuse/authoritarian structure/burn people out and spit out=excommunication/letting friends go/never contacting again/not seeking to change or right wrongs.

Im actually blissfully happy outside of GCx.  Leaving, as I’ve stated before, changed our lives— my husband’s, children’s, and mine. 

As shocking as the language might seem, for some people their GCx experience was devastating.  For others a mere blip of time thet could have been better spent somewhere else.


I’m grateful to be free to worship God outside of GCx.

But it’s obvious you desire to spend extended time trying to influence others with something a select few claim? Myself and hundreds of others never experienced what you claim, oh yeah, we are brain washed. If so, God can brainwash me in this type of loving fellowship any day.  What I have found is each of us have way more control of our results of what we get from life. Family,work, and Church are never perfect. I see it more at work, as Most want to dictate how,when or where. You didn’t like the Church,ok, move on, live and let live. I give God the glory, so many have found the Spirit of joy and free from hurt at ECC. Just because you had issue, why would you try and take it away from others?
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« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2018, 09:39:08 pm »

They were given a million dollars to start a church in Germany. So you know what this is really all about just look at the money trail.
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Linda
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« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2018, 09:46:38 pm »

They were NOT given a million dollars. Didn’t happen.
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« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2018, 06:14:49 am »

As long as this thread was opened up again by Soul, here are some thoughts.

1.  Suzanne completely changed her story from one of “spiritual abuse” to one of sexual abuse 18 years after the fact.

Suzanne has never changed her story. Joan may have a document in her possession that shows this. This is why they should release all the documents.

2.   In a sit-down meeting 18 years ago with Mark and several others, including her husband and counselor, Suzanne is on record as having never brought up anything in the realm of sexual abuse. Also, in a letter she and John wrote to Mark at that time, there are no charges of any kind that support her recent claims of sexual abuse. Mark has the letter as proof.

Again, Suzanne believes Joan is in possession of a document that shows otherwise.
The letter Joan has in her possession is not the letter that John wrote to Mark.

3.   Suzanne accused Evergreen (specifically three Godly pastors of great integrity) of a cover-up and a $60,000 bribe to buy her silence. This is patently false. The money was in the form of a severance package for John as he transitioned from being an employee of Evergreen. An outside firm, Mission Training International, was brought in to help manage this transition, and they suggested a standard severance agreement, which included language around non-disparagement, be used.

Suzanne was never an employee of ECC. Why would she be asked to sign a "standard severance agreement" and be asked to sign a statement saying she would not speak ill of MD or ECC?
Joan has this document. Again, it needs to be released.
It was $50,000. John corrected Suzanne on the amount. I believe Joan confirmed the amount to Suzanne.
Why would ECC offer a severance package when John was employed by GCM while working in Germany?

4.   As a part of Suzanne’s accusations, she literally accused Mark’s wife of not only knowing about, but being complicit in, the abuse.

Accuse is a little strong. How would anyone know if Kathy knew about the walks, the basement counseling, the hugs?

5.   Several friends of the van Dyck’s at the time say the topic of sexual abuse never came up even as they confided in others about their issues with Mark.

Lots of my friends don't know lots of stuff about me.

6.   Suzanne would have us believe that even though her husband John knew that she was being serially sexually abused, he did nothing to stop it and, in fact, remained employed in the same church as her abuser for many years. And when he did leave the church several years later, he did not bring forth any charges of sexual abuse. Interestingly, John also has indicated he won't participate in an investigation.

We don't know that John didn't participate in the investigation.
We don't know that John didn't try to address it/stop it. All seem to agree he was at the meeting.
Are you saying that if the allegations were true, and nothing was done about them, that John was wrong to keep his job? Of course, he did leave when he found out the agreed upon action was not taken.


7.   Suzanne has refused to answer any questions either on this forum or Facebook and Twitter, which is where she brought these charges forth. Even basic questions go unanswered. She said that she had proof but has offered nothing in that regard.

Suzanne answered a lot of questions in her statements.
Many of you kept asking them as though she hadn't.
When I would copy and paste where she had already stated answers to your questions, I got accused of being her "spokesperson".

8.   Suzanne now refuses to participate in the investigation even though she had originally agreed that she would participate.

Suzanne participate in the investigation.

9.   Suzanne posted this on Feb 5th, “Sometimes our bodies know what was done to us long before we have the words to name it. Those that help to name it, help to free us.” So, 18 years later she still needed others to help her figure out what happened to her and what she should call this? With the encouragement of several individuals here, she named it something it clearly was not.

I'm not sure when I was 19 that I would have known what to call an inappropriate hug.
A married pastor (or any pastor for that matter) should not go on repeated walks or to secluded parks with women alone, ask them personal questions about private sexual matters, or give them hugs alone.

10.   Suzanne’s story has been like shifting sand. Her latest iteration would seem to include the fact that she was a child when Mark abused her, as she recently reported him as her abuser in a network specifically for sexual child abusers.

Suzanne has never changed her story.
She corrected the reporting error.

11. Bonus reason and maybe the most compelling reason of all. In order to believe Suzanne, I also must believe that not only is Mark lying, but so is Mark Bowen, Brent Knox, Doug Patterson, Kathy Darling and Suzanne's counselor. When I weigh each side on the scale of truth, and look at the testimony of each of their lives, it isn't even close.

In listening to testimony, jurors are instructed to consider many things to determine whether or not the witness is credible. One of those things is, "Does the person giving the testimony have an interest in the outcome of the trial?" It seems to me that ECC/MD have a lot to lose if this any of this is true. On the other hand, if Suzanne (and the others) are not telling the truth, they have a lot to lose and very little to gain other than the knowledge that this behavior won't continue.


ECC should minimally let Suzanne and the victims see the entire report so they are able to verify or challenge any documents or testimony.

ECC should release to Suzanne any documents they have that pertain to her. (i.e. the $50,000 letter and exchange, and the statement she wrote prior to the visit with the counselor)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 06:19:25 am by Linda » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2018, 01:35:39 pm »

Two questions.

1. Will your faith be damaged if the allegations are shown to be true?

2. How do you process the idea that Suzanne is not the only one who has stepped forward with allegations? (Or, to put it another way, how do you process Victim A and Victim C's stories?)

Answer to question 1. Not that I can see... Christians do engage in horrible behaviour from time to time. I think you gave the example of David. Very good example. He still was a man after God's own heart.

Answer to question 2: I don't know. I have to read those other people's stories and also hear Mark Darling's side of them.

Thus far the only thing I have heard was that Mark Darling engaged in totally inappropriate conversations. Of course in any of these conversations, you'd really have to be there to see why the questions were asked that were asked. Who knows, maybe some things were said "jokingly" (though inappropriately) but they would sound a lot different, if you saw the context.

Some things don't make sense. For instance, I can't believe that Mark and Kathy asked her to listen to them having sex. They aren't porn artists. That makes no sense.

I'm not trying to say that Mark hasn't done inappropriate things. I don't know. I think that if he did, a huge concern, I have would be why he wouldn't have confessed this earlier, but walked around for 20 years or so with an unrepentant hardened heart. Also GCx strongly encourages accountability. So, yes, for me there are still a lot of questions that don't make sense in this story. Even if you are hurt by GCx, you still need to be careful not to jump to any conclusion.
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« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2018, 02:18:29 pm »

Pietwowo, thanks for your response.  I am a little confused about the phrase "jumping to conclusions" at this point.  While the BOT did not release many details about what misconduct entailed, I think we are past the point of thinking maybe his behavior was minimally inappropriate. 

First of all, we have several victim accounts, which you are free to dismiss.  Second, Joan Harris determined that: “the investigation does support the fact that Mark Darling, while holding a position of authority, engaged in inappropriate conduct. . . .”  Specifically, this conduct included spending time alone with women in private settings and inappropriate conversations with women of a sexual nature." Mentioning his position of authority indicates abuse or misuse of the power differential for his own benefit and to the detriment of others.  Third, the BOT, who read the entirety of the report, found that Mark's behavior was inappropriate to the point of rescinding his ordination.

I realize it can be confusing and we are all left with many questions, but we're past the point of thinking that knowing the context would minimize the seriousness of the misconduct.

According to ECC's own investigation, Mark Darling has indeed walked around with an unrepentant heart and other pastors failed to hold him accountable.  With this kind of darkness, Mark asking Suzanne to listen to him have sex is not really unbelievable.
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