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Author Topic: Do you know anything about these colleges?  (Read 92322 times)
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2009, 08:07:18 am »

Linda, excellent points... I hope this comment doesn't bury them.  I felt the need to edit what I had written earlier as I didn't wish it to reflect negatively on what I now believe.  Also I didn't wish to be a discouragement to anyone.  So if you want to reread it you can.  I don't mind if you do or don't.  Just letting you all know!  I really do value the truth above everything.  But love is a close second and I was trying to state that!
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2009, 10:50:55 am »

Linda, the entire discussion, the very fact it was conducted at all, illustrates the problem GC is having with ethics.  They strain at the gnats of technicalities to squeeze their practices into the "it's legal" parameters while ignoring the fact that most everyone else sees their practices as unethical.  Technically unethical, morally unethical, and generally unethical.

Jesus calls us to be innocent as doves in our standing in the world.  He also calls us to be wise in this world of snakes, but He does not call on us to act deceitfully as if we too were snakes.  When Paul said he would do anything to win the world to Christ, he did not mean he would do any sin or tell any lie to make that happen, rather, he would do anything and everything that was holy so as to win the unsaved.  I am not sure that GC leadership interprets Paul that way.

Why did the West Lafayette GC church disguise the entire church as if it were a student organization?  Why does the present Gator church not know if it is a student organization or a church?  Why?  Is it really that those who comprise the congregation cannot discern the difference between a student organization and a church?  Rather doubtful since we are told to gather together into churches and not into student organizations.  No, these churches hesitate to admit in public that they are churches because they are hiding something from someone.  What are they hiding, and who are they hiding it from?
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anonymoustoday
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« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2009, 11:47:30 am »

Some interesting items to take special note of:

EAS asked, "These [GC] churches hesitate to admit in public that they are churches because they are hiding something from someone.  What are they hiding, and who are they hiding it from?" 
Amusingly, Randomous really answered that question, "The main reason each one [the GC church which is the GC student organization] has a different name is the national name [GCAC] just sucks, linguistically.  It's long, hard to say, and not very memorable.  if you'll look at most churches with conventional names, their college groups are very rarely 'First Baptist College Students' or anything like that.   It's natural."

Linda quoted GC's own website on Gator: "Gator Christian Life is a college church run by college students. No matter what you are interested in or gifted at doing, there is a ministry opportunity for you. If you see one of the following opportunities that you are interested in, get in touch with the contact person."
Randomous argued against GCAC's own website when he said, "Again, the student group is not a church.  They are different."

Well, of course the truth is that Gator is a GCAC church, controlled and run by men assigned to be its "oversight," men who are called elders who are to be obeyed by students and community folks alike.  It is only a "student organization" in the legal sense so it can meet on campus.  And yes, as Randomous admitted, it does intentionally hide its affiliation with GCAC because GCAC's name "just sucks." 

A good name is to be more desired than great wealth, Favor is better than silver and gold. (Proverbs 22:1)
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theresearchpersona
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« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2009, 06:11:27 pm »

Quote from: randomous
As for the matter of including "church" in the name, that is something many many churches of all sorts are trying to get away from.
Well, I'm not into church "marketing". Don't agree with it. Jesus doesn't need me to make him look good (as if I could do that anyway). But, my point wasn't so much that they are a church that doesn't have the word "church" in their name. My point was that they are a CHURCH disguising themselves as a student organization and don't want to call themselves a church.

That's nearly part-and-parcel of ss ("seeker sensitive") marketing philosophy: bait-and-switch: offer a "series of talks" on issues, not a Church service, though the whole thing is filled by members of a Church who're inviting everyone, and is preceded by music (whether Christian or secular, or even more heinous, purposely-vague "christian"--think Skillet-type "you" "you" "you" with lots of cultural contextualization like comparing God to drugs).

A probably troubling thing, that is, for someone like Gator to see, (not imputing anything to you gator, just a possibility if you've been GC-involved), is that this kind of thing has almost become standard: unexamined and seemingly normal anymore, rather than anyone having the tenacity to assert scripture and call-out marketing of the Church as a heinous evil: most people probably don't even realize the roots to these things. A quick, for me, (you won't believe it) history:

Once upon a time, (this is no fairy tale), there was an ambitious missionary named Donald MacGavran. Seeing things that were pragmatically effective, he fostered and nurtured the idea of people movements, and what he came to call "sociological ministry". This burgeoned into Church-Growth teachings, and its roots and premise are theologically and doctrinally Pelagian, taking a warped view of God and man, and ultimately making man capable of coming to God apart from the Father first drawing him, which God does to all rather than only some as Christ indicates (John 6). "Grassroots" movements like "the Jeuss People", and various other movements now famous though faltered, were his brainchildren: he decided to heavily drink from psychology's insights into how to manipulate people, and to use causes to gain followers (anyone else here notice how often it is that GC's members are converts to the cause, "this vision", but not Christ or the Scripture when truth comes into conflict with it?).

This flourished in the form of Church-Growth seminars, and even institutions established to affix and promote these strange teachings, such as [edit, Fuller School of World Mission], the chair of which MacGavran held: his disciple, the self-proclaimed apostle C. Peter Wagner--who's quotes and teachings litter GC's websites, materials, conferences, messages, strategizing, and thinking, by the way--was his successor at Fuller, and as one of those merchandising the Church with his ideas while proclaiming that all must subject themselves to his and the other apostles' apostleship, he's famous and being followed tremendously by the herd of goats of our day. He's exceptionally important to the things undergirding GCM as a missionary organization, actually. The institutions that were established, by the way, also started creating and promoting the idea that Christians must gain influence and prestige, rise to high levels in spheres of influence, etc., even saying such was "desperately needed".

But there was another figure. MacGavran's idea was to take ministry and denigrate, and throw-away, what was called "theological ministry", replacing it with "sociological ministry". He was the intellectual creator the deceiving philosophies pervasively occupying the minds of the worldings inhabiting the visible self-marketing Churches of our day, much of "evangelicalism" (falsely so-called: it usually has other gospels--CRU included, Randomous), but there was another more important popularizer: Robert Schuller.

He argued in the train of thought of MacGavran (while mixing-up things with New Age teachings, classes for which he held on the campus of Crystal Cathedral, while also popularizing and promoting mystics and other strange wolves), explicitly, that our theology must be "man-centered" rather than "God-centered", but he had the oratory and smiles to pull-off this sale: plus a huge successful goat-drawing "church" born of surveying the neighborhoods and, as he boasts, throwing-out preaching of the word which they were not interested in. This man happened to disciple through his "institute for successful church leadership" two major figures: one was Billy Hybeles, who's Willow Creek association was born in the same vein as Schullers: survey's, not God's word, determining their direction and what to give the attenders: his last major survey found that their converts who showed biblical evidence of regeneration all leave. Taking the cues from both his mentor Schuller, and first predecessor Hybels, the other Schuller disciple Rick Warren did the same, though now elevating humanism to a much greater level of publicity than any before him, despite that at times he can show ability in the word, etc., he is a constant caught-on-tape deceiver and duplicitous with all that would hold him accountable, preaches no gospel, preaches other gospels in his books and to audiences of unbelievers to whom he says God has made them for a purpose, so "do what you can do well", while neglecting any mention of His wrath against their sin, and God's mandate to repent and believe on His Son, which they direly need, because it doesn't fit his social gospel.

Oh yeah, and that same Warren who's teachings have heavily shaped GC and are found throughout GC's materials, on the shelves of GC's libraries, who's programs and philosophies dictate so much (not that it was all a big change since the previous incarnations of the same were often present) is also one of the major behind-the-scenes nurturers and promoters of the "Emergent Church", by the way. Speaking of which, he proclaimed to the world the Christianity embodied in the document called "The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth" (Inerrancy, the Virgin Birth, the Deity of Christ, etc. etc.) "was a narrow, legalistic, brand of Christianity": but the SOF on his webpage looks legit, so I guess he checks out. (Just in case you can't tell, that's sarcastic.)

GC is humanistic, fundamentally, a conglomeration of exceptionally deadly errors: all in Jesus' name, though: so all is well, "you're understanding is just different brother, we love you so you can leave [don't challenge us, don't say anything]".

Ahem, essentially much of "Christianity" today is not: even explicitly, it's not even that inobvious as one learns basic handling of Scripture. It's not something to be smug about, nor do I celebrate every time some this or that is being "done for Christ". GC itself, in massive quantity of its substance, if that could be quantized, is fundamentally flawed and not in any sense resting on the Scriptural foundations: just that its pastors, not Christ, are the heads, consider themselves husbands to the churches (whether or not they still teach it, they sure to act like it, and we've seen the slips of it even coming right back out), make this sickeningly obvious.

And the end to the fairly tale? Millions deceived and hardened by these wicked teachers get to go to hell for unbelief and unrepentant errors, false assurance, and their persecution of the Church as they mock faithfulness as outmoded fundamentalism, not doubting as immature and unquestioning, discipline according to Scripture (I say that to preclude you GCers who think GC's teachings on much of this are right about discipline) is unloving, etc.. 

The end.

And what doesn't end: God is still glorified for serving infinite justice, and the believing Saints get to see how rich and deep and wonderful His mercy is in the wrath He pours out on the faithless who practiced lawlessness: who didn't know they must die, not come to Christ to find their life, and not receive Him.

Would you dare preach that, hmm? That God is glorifed both in saving and damning souls? And, more importantly, that He is not only just, but this is in the grand scheme of things, wonderful? See how relevant you are if you're up-front with the truth; how many friends and much influence you can gain when you make not pretenses, and stop marketing the Church as the world's hope in favor of preaching Christ crucified. See what happens to you if you assert that God has no obligation to, nor is He unfair if he doesn't, save all or intend to save all, for instance: again, John 6: those are Jesus's words. Jesus himself preaches that very theme repeatedly. God declares it repeatedly, "I'll mercy whom I'll mercy".

To those in GC: the gospel such as "the Four Spiritual Laws" is salvation by laws, do A, God will do B: give you your ticket. But the Scriptures declare salvation is according to His purpose and mercy, not according to our works, not according to what's foreseen but His will, and that's not a denial of His incredible love.  Trust me: it's not that you have a gaping God-shaped hole: you're just dissatisfied and could fill that dissatisfaction with tons of things: I know plenty for whom drugs, sex, boos, etc., are just fine, and do everything they need for them for being satisfied. But if God has wrought within a person a new heart, then they have new desires, and then such things aren't fulfilling. You are not saved, if you are saved, due to some decision you made, or mantra/prayer you chanted, but according to God's mercy, got it? But if you don't know that--you better test yourself to see whether you actually stand (see 1 John).

Thanks for answering my questions. One of the most frustrating aspects of our GC experience was the wasted time. We spend many hours over many months trying to get answers only having to go back later and meet yet again because we learned something new that no one had bothered to mention before that was relevant to our concerns. Sometimes answers can be technically correct, but misleading. It is a reason why I keep asking questions which to some might sound "nit picky" and I do appreciate your answering them. Maybe I will post about some of the ways we were misled by the "technical" truth sometime.

Anyway, thanks for answering.

Quote
Again, the student group is not a church.
Then why is GCL listed as a GCC church on the GCC web page? http://www.gccweb.org/gcc/ministries/dir_commun.aspAnd why is "Cypress Church of Gainesville-Gator Christian Life" listed as a campus ministry on the GCC web page? http://www.gccweb.org/gcc/ministries/dir_campus.asp

Quote
the website though, is for the student group,
Then why does the link on the GCC church page take you to the web page? And, are the pastors listed anywhere? Seems odd to have a big fancy web page for a student group and have things like "Church-wide Prayer Meeting" and "GCL Sunday Service" and 40 Days of Prayer meetings that are led by a Pastor who is not mentioned anywhere else, but officers and staff are listed.

Quote
it's not a church presenting itself as a student organization.
See above paragraph on the web page. I am reminded of the saying, "When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck."

Quote
I believe the main reasons other churches don't do it is because they like having buildings.
I know a lot of churches that meet in schools and pay a big chunk of rent. Do you mean to tell me that if they found a couple of students to become "officers" they could meet on campus for free? I really don't think so. The proof of that would be for someone to contact the U of FL and ask the question.

Quote
CIA does everything in conjunction with FBC; the FBC college minister speaks at their group.  What is the problem here?  It's the exact same situation as is going on at GCL.
So you are telling me that FBC has it's Sunday Services on the campus? If they do, you are correct it would be the same situation.

However, if what you mean by having the college minister come on campus is that he leads a Bible study during the week for students or leads a prayer meeting every Friday morning, then, no, it's not the same thing. That is just a campus organization inviting in a guest speaker. In this case, CIA and FBC are two distinct groups with two distinct sets of bylaws.


I'm waiting for a middle of the night phone call from London, so am killing time online. Look what I found on the GCL web page:
Quote
Gator Christian Life is a college church run by college students. No matter what you are interested in or gifted at doing, there is a ministry opportunity for you. If you see one of the following opportunities that you are interested in, get in touch with the contact person.
It was buried in the activities section. They say they are a church and they are run by college students.

My questions are:
1) Is Gator Christian Life a church? Yes or no.

2) Is Gator Christian Life run by students? Yes or no.

Somehow I think the answer to question #2 will be "yes" with a clarification of what the word "run" means!

:O
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randomous
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« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2009, 09:40:57 pm »

Some interesting items to take special note of:

EAS asked, "These [GC] churches hesitate to admit in public that they are churches because they are hiding something from someone.  What are they hiding, and who are they hiding it from?" 
Amusingly, Randomous really answered that question, "The main reason each one [the GC church which is the GC student organization] has a different name is the national name [GCAC] just sucks, linguistically.  It's long, hard to say, and not very memorable.  if you'll look at most churches with conventional names, their college groups are very rarely 'First Baptist College Students' or anything like that.   It's natural."

Linda quoted GC's own website on Gator: "Gator Christian Life is a college church run by college students. No matter what you are interested in or gifted at doing, there is a ministry opportunity for you. If you see one of the following opportunities that you are interested in, get in touch with the contact person."
Randomous argued against GCAC's own website when he said, "Again, the student group is not a church.  They are different."

Well, of course the truth is that Gator is a GCAC church, controlled and run by men assigned to be its "oversight," men who are called elders who are to be obeyed by students and community folks alike.  It is only a "student organization" in the legal sense so it can meet on campus.  And yes, as Randomous admitted, it does intentionally hide its affiliation with GCAC because GCAC's name "just sucks." 

A good name is to be more desired than great wealth, Favor is better than silver and gold. (Proverbs 22:1)


If you would please attempt to be fair and listen to what I said, I would appreciate it.  The student group is not a church is correct, and not in contradiction with the website.  When you make a website, you have a purpose.  The purpose of GCL's website is first, for people who are looking to get involved at UF, and second for people who already part of it for specific resources.  No one sentence summary is going to be complete - it would be really confusing if it were to say "Gator Christian Life is a student organization and is also the campus ministry of Cypress Church".  Again, this is a common occurence with all churches - the campus ministry is a registered student organization.  By nature of that, and the way that universities want it to be, is that the same group (organization) is both a student group and part of a church.  What the website is conveying is that when you're getting involved with GCL, you're getting involved with a church.  No one tries to market it as a non-affiliated student group - if you'll look on both the about us page and the university page, you'll see that it says very clearly "We are affiliated with Great Commission Churches". 

There is no attempt to not be affiliated with GCC.  What I was saying is that "Great Commission Churches student group" is a very odd name, and not something really nice to use.  t's not about marketing in the negative sense (there are no churches that don't market by definition) but about not turning off people before they're able to form relationships.  Militant us vs. you Christianity doesn't work at bringing people to Christ - we'll be known by our love, and if they never interact with us they'll never see our love for each other.   Why do you insist on putting unnecessary obstacles in people's way?  Even the Assemblies of God call theirs Chi Alpha.  Oh, and btw, whoever said the staff aren't on there is incorrect - below the officers there is a link to all the staff, including pastors.  i hadn't actually gone and looked at the page recently, as in since before the officers were on there - it looks like they were both put there the same time, you just missed it.  Oh, and the reason the service opportunity page specifically mentions the church is that those opportunities are in the church ministry role of GCL - the officers are already there and are a student group role, they're filled. 

Funny quote from proverbs, but i hope you understand that by a good name it means a good reputation, which both GCL and GCC have, despite any minor attempts to the contrary.

Universities have simple goals for a student group - it has students, it serves students, and it doesn't violate any of their principles or harass people.  They don't care who it's affiliated with, or whether it's under some form of authority from an outside group.  In fact, the direction for most student groups is not from students - most religious groups have a campus minister or paid staff who decide that, as do most honor societies and service groups and so on and so forth, and all have a faculty advisor who has to approve any decision. 

I don't know what happened in your group - it could be a misunderstanding, or it could be something else.  At GCL, everything is upfront, the university and the public know their affiliation, and that's all there is.

The common tie between GCL as a student group, GCL as a ministry of a church, and the church as a whole is the sunday meeting and the membership.  GCL as a student group has a different voting membership, but anyone who comes to a meeting is required by the university to be allowed to be a non-voting member.  The difference is in administration - the church has small groups which some people who attend who don't attend the church, it has outside finances and a tax ID, and it is run only by pastors.  I hope that clears it up - I know it's hard to understand, but organizations are rarely as simple as you would like to present them.  Ask a public administration professor - they'll tell you the lines are blurry.
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Linda
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« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2009, 10:13:56 pm »

Herein is my problem.
Quote from: randomous
At GCL, everybody who comes in knows it's part of a church.  Again, it is part of a local church with a different name, but they share that one weekly meeting.

Quote from: randomous
The student group is not a church is correct, and not in contradiction with the website.
Quote from: GCL web page
Gator Christian Life is a college church run by college students.

Quote from: randomous
the church has small groups which some people who attend who don't attend the church, it has outside finances and a tax ID, and it is run only by pastors.
Quote from: GCL web page
Gator Christian Life is a college church run by college students.

I'm really trying to understand this. Here's what I have pieced together.

Randomous says:
GCL is the name of the student group and the church has a different name
GCL is not a church, but is a ministry of a church
GCL (which is not a church) is run only by pastors

GCL by it's own admission says:
they are a church
they are run by college students

Quote from: randomous
Even the Assemblies of God call theirs Chi Alpha.
Ummm, Chi Alpha, Campus Crusade, Intervarsity are NOT churches. The students in these groups attend many different churches. Big difference. Chi Alpha, Campus Crusade, and Intervarsity do not ask for lifetime commitments to their organization. Big difference.

Quote from: randomous
Again, this is a common occurrence with all churches - the campus ministry is a registered student organization.
Really? Could you please give me an example of a church college ministry that is a registered student organization? I am not aware of any in Minneapolis (other than the local GC church).
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randomous
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« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2009, 11:16:54 pm »

I'll give you examples that i Know of personally, without going to the UF webpage - i'm sure we could find more.
UF: Rock UF (minstry of Rock Church
      Victory UF (ministry of Victory Church)
     Christian Student ASsociaition (Gainesville Christian Church)
      BCM - run by a pastor, funnel people to specfic local baptist churches they partner with
FSU:  Heritage House (campus church, planted by a campus church at Ohio State - identical concept)
        Wesley Foundation (campus church, not like most WFs in that run directly by a pastor)
        Chi Alpha at FSU is directly run by a pastor of a local church, which have concurrent memberships     
       
The three statements you ascribed to me, the firs two I did say and the third not.  The church is run only by pastors - Cypress Church.  The student group, GCL, is run by students.  GCL, the campus ministry of Cypress Church, obviously is not independent of Cypress Church (hence the title college ministry).  GCL is more than one thing - it's like me saying Linda is a mother and Linda is a wife, they can both happen at the same time, and it is my sincere hope you relate differently to your kids and your husband (if you're in that state of life).  There are several areas in which there are clear differences.  Finances, for one.  Small groups and certain service and leadership opportunities.  If someone were, theoretically to be excommunicated (never seen it happen), that would not extend to the Sunday morning meeting bc that's a rule the university has.  Due to a university rule, they don't collect donations at service.  It's not an either-or proposition the way some may want it to be.       

The reason the website says GCL is a college church, as I explained in the last post, is that it's trying to find a succint way to describe it.  Trying to judge it on one sentence when the page goes into detail is just asinine.
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Linda
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« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2009, 06:05:07 am »

Why does it say this, if it is run by pastors, not college students?
Quote from: GCL web page
Gator Christian Life is a college church run by college students.
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« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2009, 07:48:56 am »

Again, you're trying to take one sentence out of context and not looking at the body of information.  That sentence is an attempt to succintly describe GCL without going into the different roles or facets of it.  That sentence is speaking to two things - 1) GCL is not just a random coalescence of students, there is a church direction 2)GCL is run by students, which it is.  Everything in GCL is run by students.   The service itself, the worship, everything that happens on campus.  We haven't discussed how much is college students, but it is roughly 90%.  This isn't what the other guy described where there are 2-6 students and a bunch of community people.  GCL is big on developing leaders, and every phase of the direction of it is students.   The specifics of church, ministry of church, and student group are complex and much more than anyone wants to read in one sentence.  I didn't write that phrase, and have no idea who did.  Like most websites, it was made piecemeal. 

That's probably more than you needed, and a little confusing.  The key here, though is context.  That phrase is in the context of the OPPPORTUNITIES page, which is talking about specific things that need to be done, ministries.  It's saying all these ministries are run by students - without students doing this, the church wouldn't function.  They don't have the paid staff mindset a lot of churches do.  The running of the church and its ministries is by college students.  The context makes this clear - there is absolutely nothing about authority or leadership or vision or direction.  In actuality students do have a very large part of those, but that's not the type of running it's talking about.  I know you'll knock me for this because you already attempted to preventive twist this, knowing the context.  You know there are different meanings of run, and to take that phrase from that page and context and try to impute it to the issue of ultimate leadership is irresponsible.  Sorry if that sounds contentious, but your earlier comment on defining run necessitates it.  Understanding English requires context (most languages do - this is why i personally advocate the understanding of one's own native language as being the single most important tool in understanding the Bible.  Grammar, vocabulary, and syntax).

Please read the we need you box on the left of that page for further clarification.

Perhaps one of the cultural barriers is that most churches treat college students as only partially church members.
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« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2009, 08:10:21 am »

Quote from: Linda, me, moi, myself
My questions are:
1) Is Gator Christian Life a church? Yes or no.

2) Is Gator Christian Life run by students? Yes or no.

Somehow I think the answer to question #2 will be "yes" with a clarification of what the word "run" means!

Quote from: randomous
That phrase is in the context of the OPPORTUNITIES page, which is talking about specific things that need to be done, ministries.  It's saying all these ministries are run by students - without students doing this, the church wouldn't function.  They don't have the paid staff mindset a lot of churches do.  The running of the church and its ministries is by college students.  The context makes this clear - there is absolutely nothing about authority or leadership or vision or direction.  In actuality students do have a very large part of those, but that's not the type of running it's talking about.  I know you'll knock me for this because you already attempted to preventive twist this, knowing the context.  You know there are different meanings of run, and to take that phrase from that page and context and try to impute it to the issue of ultimate leadership is irresponsible.

Randomous, it says that GCL is a campus church run by college students.

If GCL is not a church, context or no context, this is a false and misleading statement.

It says it is run by college students. If pastors have the ultimate say (I don't care who plays the guitar or offers the opening prayer or reserves the building) then it is not RUN by students. It is run by elders.

Words matter, Randomous.

When a student or parent goes to this web page to read about GCL they will come across those words. They do not communicate that the students attending are going to attend a church where they will be asked to put themselves under the authority of GC self-perpetuating elders FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.

It should not take all these posts and require so much explanation to define this group. Something is very wrong.

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« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2009, 08:52:19 am »

Understanding English requires context (most languages do - this is why i personally advocate the understanding of one's own native language as being the single most important tool in understanding the Bible.  Grammar, vocabulary, and syntax).

Actually, I thought this particular sentence was interesting, given GCx's dislike of seminary training.  I'm certainly not trained in Greek or Hebrew and so can't point fingers, but I think that there is MUCH more important than just knowing English well to understand the Bible.  Anyone care to comments on that?
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #71 on: March 27, 2009, 08:57:17 am »

Why doesn't the website say Gator Christian Life is a church.  There is a ministry of the church overseen by elders but essentially run by students that meets at the college campus that is also called Gator Christian Life.  Both ministries are affiliated with a  larger parent ministry... Great Commission Churches (or is it Great Commission Ministries?)  What would be wrong with that?  Would that be against university policy?
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Linda
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« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2009, 10:34:27 am »

Quote from: randomous
      Rock UF (ministry of Rock Church)
      Victory UF (ministry of Victory Church)
      Christian Student Association (Gainesville Christian Church)
      BCM - (run by a pastor, funnel people to specific local baptist churches they partner with)

Victory is a legitimate student group. Here's their listing with the U of F.
http://www.union.ufl.edu/involvement/search/orgdetail.asp?org=VICTORY
They meet on Friday nights at 7:00. They list their affiliations as Victory Church of Gainesville. Their web page is:
http://www.victoryuf.com/
On the home page they state:
Quote from: Victory student organization web site
Victory UF is sponsored by the Victory Church of Gainesville. For more information visit them at victorygnv.org

Victory Church of Gainesville has their own web page. It's:
www.victorygnv.org
They have Pastor Bill and services on Sunday morning at 10:30 am. I'm guessing they can take up a collection at the Sunday service without violating U of F student organization regulations.

The Rock is very interesting. They are a legit student group. Here's the link.
www.union.ufl.edu/involvement/search/orgdetail.asp?org=ROCK+YOUR+LIFE
Under affiliations they say, "We are a ministry of the The Rock of Gainesville, which is a non-denominational, Christian church in Gainesville." They meet Friday nights at 7:00 pm. They have a fancy schmancy web site. It is:
www.rylcollege.com/

The Rock of Gainesville is an interesting church. They were founded in 1987 by apostles George A. and Suzanne Brantley.
http://www.therockonline.org/about_us.html

A quick Google search reveals a GCL connection. And, where would that connection be, you ask? On the Rick Ross web page of all places. In an article about Hare Krishnas!
www.rickross.com/reference/krishna/krishna54.html

Quote from: Rick Ross article choice bits
"We've been here for two years now, and we've never really heard a word he's said," she grumbles, eying a preacher who warns students to avoid the trappings of worldly possessions. "I just want to chuck this (bottle) at him!"

The subject of her annoyance is Matt Sherman, who stands nearby preaching to the crowd.

For the past three years, he has come to campus whenever he can to spread his message. And with more than 40,000 students rushing by, he only has a moment to peak their interest.

Sherman has thrown Bibles, mimicked hanging himself, singled out passerby and debated with them - all in an effort to spur their spiritual advancement.

He disputes accusations that the preachers are an overly aggressive group, saying he respects other religions and their followers but refuses to "respect political correctness when it obscures the truth." "God loved me enough to share his truth with me, so how can I do otherwise? Some of these people will never get to a church, so I have to come to them," he says.

A member of Gator Christian Life and a UF graduate, Sherman has ties to both institutions.

Like the Krishnas, GCL which has been active on campus since the early '80s, has not always had a smooth relationship with the administration, relates GCL representative Matt Gordon.

In mid-June of 1985, several of its preachers were arrested on Turlington Plaza when professors in nearby classrooms complained to the police about the noise level. Despite the group's history, Sherman adamantly opposes the "in-your-face" reputation the preachers have, especially when they are compared to the techniques of the Hare Krishnas.

"My stance is far less abrasive! The Hare Krishnas are a cult, wolves in sheep's clothing," he exclaims. "They only come to campus to recruit for their cult. They want their members to ignore reality, chanting to solve their problems."

Fabian Chapov, a pastor at the Rock of Gainesville church, has come to Turlington Plaza on Tuesdays and Thursdays with others from his church for the past two or three years.

"We're not here to condemn the students, we just want to make them think," Chapov explains. "Students spend all their time thinking about their majors and classes, but they don't even spend five minutes considering whether or not God exists."

Chapov explains the reasons for the judgmental reputation Turlington preachers have.

"The negative students are much more vocal. I've had people yell, curse, even spit at me," he confesses. "But we know that many students are trying to listen to what we have to say.

GCL is a legit student organization. Campus organization site:
www.union.ufl.edu/involvement/search/orgdetail.asp?org=GATOR+CHRISTIAN+LIFE
However, GCL lists it affiliation as Great Commission Ministries. It doesn't mention being a "ministry" of a specific local church.

Now, this takes a very interesting turn because Tom Mauriello sent me an e-mail last year listing all the GCM churches. GCL was not one of them. So, not only does GCL not say it is part of "What's the Name of the Church, I Can't Find it Written Anywhere on the Student Organization Web Page" Church it says it is affiliated with GCM.

Tom M, the head honcho at GCM sent me a list of the GCM churches. He said:
Quote from: GCM head honcho Tom M
Here is some info on the GCM churches and their leadership.  Any other campus ministry is GCC (unless I missed one).  If a GCC church has a campus ministry, that ministry is GCC.  For example, Tom Short  has a campus ministry with Ohio State through his community church , Linworth Road, and both the church and the campus ministry are GCC.  GCMC is actually re-planting / new church planting on Ohio State as well.  The two will be totally separate both in ministry and leadership. I know that the DNA of the past can run into the GCMC churches, but hopefully it is a few generations removed or not to the same degree as you might find in GCC.
Here's the list of GCM churches:
Quote from: Tom Mauriello's GCM church list
GCMC Churches:
·         Ball State Revolution
·         Bowling Green, Ohio – send a church plant to Kent State
·         H20 Orlando
·         Illini Life, U of IL
·         Illinois State Illini Life
·         New Life Church, U of M Campus Church
·         Ohio State – new church ‘replant’ on the way
·         University of Maryland Church
·         The Rock, University of Missouri
·         New Life Campus Fellowship, Virginia Tech .
·         Riverview Church, Lansing MI   
·         Texas A&M University
·         University of Texas
·         University of North Texas
·         Kairos & Kairos West, Los Angeles
·         Heritage Church, Ohio (affiliate)

Way too wordy. Sorry, I am just trying to make the case and offer the links to prove it.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 01:03:34 pm by Linda » Logged

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G_Prince
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« Reply #73 on: March 30, 2009, 08:14:37 pm »

Church/College Group relations can always be a little hairy, but what's weird about GCx is that it changes it's name or fragments into multiple factions every few years. It's hard to tell if one church is affiliated with another church let alone a campus organization. It's worse then General Motors Association. They are a chameleon always changing externally to fit their surroundings but staying the same inside.
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randomous
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« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2009, 12:50:00 am »

Wow, G Prince, I actually take that as a compliment (I know it's not meant as such).  "They are a chameleon always changing externally to fit their surroundings but staying the same inside. " The inside is indeed what is important.  It is only recently that names has been changing - I mean before you had like just a few important name modifications in twenty-odd years.  But you do hit on something important for Linda to understand - the student organization page has not been updated for quite some time, on the university's part, as you can see from the election part it was last changed in spring of 2006 (hence the 07 election date).  The student group submits new info every year, but the university doesn't always change it.  GCL was at one point directly under GCM, but made a decision a few years ago to be part of GCC when GCMC came into existence.  So that's just an oversight.  If you look on the GCL, website, it's very clear that GCL is part of GCC. 

Agatha - that sounds fine to me.  The only problem is, it's way too wordy and confusing for a freshman just looking for a church (that's mostly who finds the website, imo).  The phrase in question, again, is not on the about us page, it is on the opportunities page, which is mainly directed at people who are committed to GCL - i doubt many freshman hop to the opportunities page and say yes, i can get involved, even though i've never been and don't know if i want to. 

IMO, the infrastructure is not of concern to very many people.   It seems like you would all be happy with the way it is - it's very clear to anyone who visits the website or a meeting that they would be getting involved with a church.  No one would be under the impression it is a random independent student group. 
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« Reply #75 on: March 31, 2009, 06:39:26 am »

Quote from: randamous
It seems like you would all be happy with the way it is - it's very clear to anyone who visits the website or a meeting that they would be getting involved with a church.

First, yes, I would feel better (not happy) for the students if they knew before attending that GCL was a church that is overseen, run, operated, and controlled by elders/pastors (and not student officers). 

Second, I would feel much better (maybe even happy) for the students if they knew GCL was associated with the GCI/GCAC/GCx denomination that has a long written history of abuses, and that they knew about this history before they started attending. 
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Linda
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« Reply #76 on: March 31, 2009, 07:02:36 am »

Quote from: The Rock student page
We are a ministry of the The Rock of Gainesville, which is a non-denominational, Christian church in Gainesville.
What I was trying to do in that lengthy post, was take the names of a couple of  student organizations and look up their page on the U of FL student organization site. What I noted was that the two organizations I mentioned both say directly that they are affiliated with a church, and name the church. These organizations did what Agatha suggested with minimal words.

I was also pointing out that those organizations have distinct meeting times. This would be consistent with a church's college ministry.

The problem with GCL is that it is misleading. First of all, it doesn't mention that it basically IS a church rather than a student ministry in that the meetings are at the same time, and in the same location and the teaching is under the control of GC elders.

Secondly, at some point in time they came under the authority of GCM. Did they mention this to the university, I wonder?

Randomous, part of my frustration is that everything inaccurate is always written off as an "oversight" which might address motive, but does not address the fact that people are misled by incorrect information. The inaccuracies are rarely corrected.

Another point, to be technically accurate, GCL is affiliated with "Can't Remember the Name" Church. Shouldn't the affiliation be changed from GCM to "Can't Remember the Name" Church and not GCC?

Remember, we are told that all local churches, while part of GCC, are independent churches and not beholden to a denomination. It is, after all, an association. They have gone to great pains to say there is local control.
Quote from: randomous
IMO, the infrastructure is not of concern to very many people.
I used to think this. Then I  joined a GC church and learned a BIG lesson.

Infrastructure matters.

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« Reply #77 on: September 21, 2016, 02:05:03 pm »

Just found this site and am resurrecting an ancient thread here, but I knew Gordon, and Randomous was/is drinking the Kool-Aid. Gordon was a rank-and-file GCx-er. Blind submission to higher-ups. Woefully ignorant of theology. I can of course only write of my own anecdotal experiences, but I've met Christians who lived in Gainesville and went to other churches, and the general consensus I've heard is that Gator Christian Life's reputation in the community is NOT a good one. Beware.

Does anyone know what the GCM-affiliated church at the University of Florida is like?
Yes, I was a part of Gator C.L. at that time.  It's a great church, and everyone who knows Matt Gordon knows he's one of the most humble servant leaders you'll ever meet.  The church there is proactive in uniting with the other ministries on campus and promoting unity events, and they have a spotless reputation in the community and on the campus.  I'd be glad to talk with the poster who was asking about it, or anyone else.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 06:54:55 am by HolyMoly » Logged
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« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2016, 02:32:19 am »

Gator Christian Life is a cult. Even Google search finds it:
https://www.facebook.com/GatorChristianLife/posts/266685103501372
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« Reply #79 on: September 22, 2016, 07:11:27 am »

Welcome, Holy Moly.  Glad you're here. And I'm glad that you're validating some of the more recent posters on this forum, me included, and showing that abuses are not simply a thing of the past.
I assume you were at GCL? If so, how long? I understand if you don't want to respond to this publicly--you can always PM me.
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