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Author Topic: Downtown Church in Des Moines  (Read 26349 times)
EverAStudent
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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2011, 08:45:32 am »

Ewwwwwwwwwwwww....that old smelly fish fell out of the garbage can again?....sigh....

Yes, this was a very common GC teaching some 30+ years ago, namely that marriage is for the purpose of ministry and spiritual growth.  No, no, no..., not according to the Scriptures.  Marriage is for the purpose of asuaging loneliness, first and foremost ("it is not good for a man to be alone").  Other personal reasons for marrying are fine, even for arresting the flames of desire (1 Corinthians 7:9).  But as Linda stated so correctly and vibrantly, Paul made it plain that if your goal is a life of pure unencombered service and ministry to Christ, then that is good reason NOT to marry.

Blessings.
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Captain Bible
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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2011, 07:01:02 am »

I am not sure what to think about this forum. Some of the ideas here are new to me. I have been going for a while now to the Downtown Church. Should I be concerned? Maybe a better question is why are you all concerned? It sounds like a lot of things said here are slanderous because I haven't heard anyone defend or give the other side of the story. Who can I talk to to get both sides?
One post said many bad things about marriage. I haven't seen them. I think the way it is done is unique, but what is wrong with that?
Not trying to be mean, but a lot of things on this caught me off guard.
This is what is taught on marriage. What is wrong with this?

http://vimeo.com/22521860

Yes, most of what I post is slanderous, you got me there. In your world I am a fallen person, Pray for me, because I need the lord. I need to get back into fellowship, under a pastors leadership: back under your control.  Lips sealed
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2011, 08:32:50 am »

Quote from: Devon
It sounds like a lot of things said here are slanderous because I haven't heard anyone defend or give the other side of the story.

I had not noticed this comment until cap quoted it above.  Reports of past actions do not become slander merely because you have not personally witnessed the events for yourself.  Slander is always defined as an untrue report.  A report could well be true but the events have been hidden from your view either by design, by personal choice, or by accident. 

Moreover, every GC elder and congregant has the ability to post their side of any story on this forum any time they choose.  This is substantially freerer a communication channel than dissenters or questioners are given within the GC system where rebuttals are rarely permitted without retribution or threat of excommunication. 

Blessings.
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dreadier then thou
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« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2012, 10:02:19 am »

I am not sure what to think about this forum. Some of the ideas here are new to me. I have been going for a while now to the Downtown Church. Should I be concerned? Maybe a better question is why are you all concerned? It sounds like a lot of things said here are slanderous because I haven't heard anyone defend or give the other side of the story. Who can I talk to to get both sides?
One post said many bad things about marriage. I haven't seen them. I think the way it is done is unique, but what is wrong with that?
Not trying to be mean, but a lot of things on this caught me off guard.
This is what is taught on marriage. What is wrong with this?

http://vimeo.com/22521860


devon.

i was there that night. i even hugged dan rude before he gave that message. i actually love dan rude very much. and i believe this to be true and honest and wholesome and good and right.   but thats not what i disagree with the church about. its the stuff thats NOT talked about and put on public display.
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secret
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« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2012, 08:34:11 am »

Here is another interesting blog about DTC............I think we should all be very concerned with what is happening there and how they prey on a certain type of person.           http://forum.gcmwarning.com/hellos-and-testimonies/hello-daughter-has-abandoned-home-the-downtown-church/
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DevastatedTC
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« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2012, 12:40:00 pm »

Hi,
I wasn't sure how to post things here, so I found a thread. I found this a few years ago and had some concerns. I signed up for an ID after having a rough night. Anyhow, I don't want anyone to think I'm being melodramatic by my screen name.

A few years ago, a lot of people started bringing up issues with leadership in Des Moines. Some of the things I agreed with, but a lot of great people here said things were growing in the right direction. Honestly, I do see pockets of that. For instance, we have been doing more series on scripture, which I think is great.

My big concern is that an old concern of over-reaching loyalty/commitment/authority is beginning to resurface. I approached a person in leadership about my concern a while ago. I've seen a few posts on this forum from people I probably know that make me hesitant about approaching leaders now. I also am worried because I felt the scripture being taught from was stretched a little to further the agenda.

Just so you know, I may be a bit skeptical of anyone who contacts me, but at the same time, I'd like to bounce some thoughts off of people (does that sound weird?).
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DevastatedTC
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« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2012, 08:44:54 pm »

Thanks for the help and the thoughts to everyone. Since people asked, here is the message:

http://www.the-wtc.org/podcasts/episode-1773/the-church-a-series-on-1-timothy-part-2.mp3

There were a few things that felt controlling about it all, like when he said "go to a bible study leader to ask whom you should listen to" and the stuff about identifying false teachers. I spoke with a friend and we agreed that he meant well.
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Linda
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« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2012, 06:08:46 am »

Hello DevastatedTC, Welcome. Thanks for posting. I'm listening to the talk now. When was this given.

Interesting that he is talking about the biggest threat to a church as being false/bad leaders! I'll finish listening and post more.
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Linda
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« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2012, 06:23:33 am »

I skimmed through it and found the part you mentioned at the end. Very interesting. Once again, back to the information control. Paraphrase: Be careful who you listen to. Pastors and Bible Study leaders and pastors from other GC churches=OK to listen to and they will tell you who you can listen to.

This, to me, is the classic example of GC leaders not believing that the Holy Spirit will guide believers into all truth. When something doesn't "ring true", it's sometimes good to bounce thoughts off of other believers, I agree. Also, when something doesn't "ring true", it may just be the Holy Spirit speaking. To assume the pastor is more discerning or has more of a direct link to the Holy Spirit is false teaching.

Red flag: Information control.

If I had to guess, I would say this was preached in response to some type of threat the leadership of this church was feeling towards other members who were asking questions. At my former GC church when that happened we would hear about Korah's rebellion, or hear about people who were dividing the church over the color of the carpet, or see scenes from Braveheart.
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DevastatedTC
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« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2012, 08:01:43 am »

The message was given last week. I did speak with a friend about it. They agreed with me, but also don't feel the need to bring it up to leadership because it is a smaller issue. Also, there is a trust (which I agree should be there) towards leadership that she doesn't want to bring it up. I listened to the message again and there are a lot of disclaimers that he gives before he makes the controlling statements, but then he goes ahead and makes the statement anyways. Maybe there is something to the Holy Spirit issue you mentioned. I'll have to think about that. Thanks
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Linda
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« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2012, 08:33:14 am »

"Among the gifts of the Spirit scarcely one is of greater practical usefulness than the gift of discernment. This gift should be highly valued and frankly sought as being almost indispensable in these critical times. This gift will enable us to distinguish the chaff from the wheat and to divide the manifestations of the flesh from the operations of the Spirit." A. W. Tozer

When church leaders make the assumption that they should be trusted more than a "regular" church member, they have crossed over into dangerous territory. They are in effect stating that God speaks through them more than other Christians. This is not Protestant theology which holds that the Bible is the final authority and teaches the priesthood of all believers.

My question: Does your friend think that the leaders should be trusted more than other Christians in your church?

The Bible teaches that spiritual gifts have been given to all believers. One of these gifts is the gift of discernment. When pastors suggest that you should only go to them with questions about who to trust, they are making the assumption that they have all the gifts. Including discernment. The problem is that the Bible doesn't say that. The Bible states that the gifts are distributed throughout the church. So, what if the little old lady in the congregation, or the new young believer has the gift of discernment, but the pastor doesn't? The little old lady or the new believer with the gift gets passed over in systems where the elder believes he has more knowledge and/or discernment.

It is not wrong to question leaders. It is how they are kept accountable. In a GC church, where the elders meet and make decisions in executive session and the congregation is in the hall waiting to hear what they decide, asking questions is the only way to hold the elders accountable to the Word of God. Ask questions. Be nice, but hold their feet to the fire.

Remember, the curtain was torn. We have direct access to God. We have the Holy Spirit to guide us. We have God's Word. We do not need an earthly mediator. According to the Bible, Christ is the head of the church, not the pastor.
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« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2012, 09:09:12 am »

Without doing an in depth biblical exposition or study on the matter I will make a few general orienting overview comments.

Scripture requires us to test every Bible speaker carefully, whether they are familiar and "trusted" or whether they are new and unknown to us ("trusted" teachers do not get a free pass and unknown teachers are not automatically rejected).

Scripture admonishes us to avoid only teachers who overtly preach against the genuine gospel and against the literal Word of God.  Scripture nowhere tells us to avoid excellent teachers just because they reside in a different church, different denomination, or administer a different church political structure.

There is a huge difference between being a heretic (to be rejected) and holding to a different legitimate interpretation of debatable Scripture (not to be rejected but to be studied). 

GC tends to be paranoid about anyone who does not "do church the GC way."

GC tends to be paranoid about losing control of their mystical rule: "God leads our leaders in a greater way than He leads other people or leaders of other churches."

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Linda
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« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2012, 09:56:07 am »

EAS, Amen!
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« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2012, 04:01:15 pm »

"If I had to guess, I would say this was preached in response to some type of threat the leadership of this church was feeling towards other members who were asking questions. At my former GC church when that happened we would hear about Korah's rebellion, or hear about people who were dividing the church over the color of the carpet, or see scenes from Braveheart."

Linda, I'm not sure which GC church you went to, but this is exactly out of the playbook for my ex GC church. lol
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2012, 07:12:24 pm »

AMEN to above, Linda!

Good point, EAS.

DevastatedTC:  So glad you posted.  We all understand the confusion you seem to be experiencing. We've been there and done that.   Sometimes, when a CLEAR word is desparately needed it is best to listen only to God through his Holy Spirit he made to LIVE inside you and BE your HELPER; and his LIVING & ACTIVE word which helps us in any and every need.  Then when God opens your eyes to see things in his word you never saw before, STAND on them, and don't back down.  You will be stronger for it.  He wants you to stand STEADY on the Rock, who is Jesus Christ, rather than man.   No good teacher will want you to go by the words of his mouth, but by the words from God's mouth.  Good shepherds don't want you to LOOK TO THEM for guidance, direction, and answers.  He wishes to equip you to have a closer dependence and trust on God, to listen for God through his teaching.  This is where the Holy Spirit helps you discern whether the wisdom being taught is earthly and wordly or heavenly and pure.  Trust his voice IN you.  The more you listen to the Holy Spirit the stronger you'll get and less confused you'll be.  Will pray for you.
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« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2012, 11:10:01 am »

Exactly what bother me personally is that one, he said marriage is a blessing given to you from God.  My issue alongside that is the fact that it noise like exactly what he is saying would be that being single will not generally be a true blessing and additionally I think that is wrong.  I think just about any talk in marriage should include a report about its ok to did not choose to be hitched (not the residing in sin way).  Maybe the speach ended up being only for individuals who want to feel hitched, but precisely why have it as a sermon?  I never known a lot of pointless speaks from the pulpit in my home church just like this group.  My home church we browse as well as learned the bible and additionally had some sermons in the bible, not just small hot subjects which are explained using scripture away of context which will make the sermons.  It should definately end up being the different way around in which perhaps you are really studying a chunk of scripture that relates in particular to marriage as well as we look with other books inside the bible to educate yourself on just what it means if need be. Simply my 2 cents.
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« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2014, 07:40:42 pm »

Judging from his comment after the article, Dr. Sam doesn't have a problem with a church that is all about "capturing recent high school graduates through 35-year-olds". As a parent of high school graduates through 35 year olds, I am greatly concerned.

Terry made an interesting observation this morning. We were recalling numerous testimonies during our years in a GC church. Many went something like this, "My life was a mess. Then God led me to ECC."

On the surface, that sounds fine, but really it is a twisting of what is right. The real measure of a church that is doing the right thing uses the same words, but in a different order. The church should be pointing people to God, not the other way around.

In fact, I now "judge" sermons by that criteria. When the sermon is all said and done, did the pastor point me to God and his all sufficiency, or did the pastor point me to the local congregation and how great they are and how I should be committed locally for the rest of my life.

Thanks for posting the link.

Linda, I wanted to bump this up today.  This is so incredibly insightful.  YES. You put your finger on it precisely.  Are they pointing you to God or themselves.  Wow.  Yes.
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Mary7
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« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2014, 10:32:47 pm »

The church is now Walnut Creek Church Downtown. A lot of people have left recently, but I think that's nothing new.
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DevastatedTC
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« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2014, 12:14:39 pm »

Not to beat a dead horse (moribund equine  Grin), but did anyone say why they were leaving the DTC or is it safe to assume it is the same-old, same-old.
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Mary7
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« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2014, 01:06:24 pm »

After reading this forum, I'd say it is the same. Several people started reading and studying their Bible on their own and had their eyes opened to grace. Then were labeled as bitter, divisive and falling away. But the thing is, people do struggle after leaving the church, many words and ideas have to be completely redefined without the legalism attached. So while some may "fall away", the people I know are still working out their salvation and The Lord is blessing their earnest seeking of him.

There are several teachings that are repeatedly butchered there- the sower and the seed is one. Basically- just start spreading seed and mathematically 25 % will know God and stay with Him. Where to begin?

Another teaching is submission. Submitting to leaders is stressed far more than submitting to The Lord.

I've been told not to read outside of the Bible. The first time I heard that I gave the benefit of the doubt, the second time came along with a weird explanation, so I figured the person didn't know what she was saying. The third time it was said, I realized they were serious.

I have agreed with pretty much every observation written by those who went before me here. The only thing that stressed me out was reading about the pastor's wife's blog. And that's when I want to say the bandaid line, "her heart's in the right place" because I believe it is. Then I start thinking about several individuals whose "hearts are in the right place" and I feel guilty.
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