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Author Topic: Experience the Rock: Salt Lake City-- GCLI Q&A  (Read 8797 times)
AgathaL'Orange
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« on: July 06, 2010, 01:04:41 pm »

http://www.experiencetherock.com/updatepages/messagesspecial.html

If you go to this link and listen to the sermon on 3/14/09 the GCLI Q&A.  Some of the explanations on "leadership" and "authority" are really strange.  I think what is particularly strange is that they seem to think that leaders are ordained by God to do God's work.  Not like "I'm doing the Lord's work", but to literally step into a place that is usually taken by God and that God gives to that person.

I think right there is a root of the problems in GC.  No, no, no.  My small group leader, my pastor, my husband... they are NOT stand ins for God to me.  God is God.  I answer to God.  That doesn't mean I don't respect, learn from, serve, or honor others, but they are not "standing in for God".    

That's what I heard, but I may be bringing my own lens to it.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 01:34:35 pm by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2010, 01:42:43 pm »

It's just weird that they are spending the entire Q and A on obedience and authority.  I have not heard one message on obedience and authority in my current church for the past 4 years.  The children are respectful and listen to parents, and the priest has authority.  I don't get this constant obsession with authority and obedience.

I just want people who might be from GC and are reading this to know that this is not normal.  Churches don't need to constantly harp on obedience.  They really don't!  And churches shouldn't be that invasive into your life where you really have to wonder if you should do what they say.  Ugh.  Ugh.  Ugh.  

GC Attenders:  You can follow God outside of GC.  GC is a codependent organization.  People are looking for "parents" to tell them what to do.  You don't have to be that way!  I believe that GC thrives on codependency.  Some followers NEED the strong arming leaders.  Some leaders NEED the followers, and none of it is about the Christian walk and many times it is either about ego or looking for someone who cares about you.  Get out.  Please.  Get out.  b]
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 07:55:02 pm by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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ANobody
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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2010, 07:44:36 pm »

Ms. L'Orange is correct, this type of persistent sermonizing on obedience to leadership is not normal.

However, obedience is acheived in other churches through the "Lord told me" nonsense.  GCx leaders do the same thing, of course.  But every time a leader in any denomination stands up and says, "the Lord told me" he becomes an irrufutable prophet and obedience is demanded.  Everyone who says, "the Lord told me" is a liar or self deceived, but unless you know that, you are going to think you must obey him.

Every pastor, priest, elder, deacon, Sunday School teacher, or congregant who says, "the Lord told me," is wiping their feet all over Jeremiah 23 ( http://craigwbooth.xanga.com/729012008/jeremiah-23---prophecies-of-imagination/ ).
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 07:02:29 am by ANobody » Logged
Linda
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« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2010, 07:47:56 am »

Quote from: Margaret Thatcher
Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't.
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Linda
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« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2010, 08:56:37 am »

Ha, ha. I listened to part of one of the Young talks on authority at the site that was on this link. God Honoring Authority. The 30 minute mark. Apparently, they wish they could kill us! Whew, I'm so glad God didn't give them the authority to do that!

He's talking about unrepentant sin, but a few minutes earlier he refers to "emergency" situations in the church where people are "dividing" the church and the elders need to step in and remove them, so it is obvious that he thinks disagreeing publicly with the leadership and refusing to stop would be "unrepentant sin". (I call it being obedient to the Holy Spirit, BTW.) Young says:

Quote
God gives the church the authority to discipline them. Basically kick them out of the church. Excommunicate them. And, again, God does not give the church authority to do death penalty. We can dream, but he didn't. Okay?

Honestly, what kind of pastor would wish that he could kill unrepentant sinners in the church? What would possess someone to even joke about something like that? This is most bizarre.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 09:04:02 am by Linda » Logged

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ANobody
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« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2010, 12:44:31 pm »

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Honestly, what kind of pastor would wish that he could kill unrepentant sinners in the church? What would possess someone to even joke about something like that?

They get to that point pretty easily in their theology.  They see God dispensing deadly wrath for disobedience in the OT.  They see themselves as God's spokesmen today.  Therefore, they see disagreement with their leadership as equal to disobedience with God, and thus deserving of the same penalty-remedy.  

What confuses and frustrates them is that they do not have the authority of God, the authority of angels, or the authority of OT prophets to call down judgment.  They do not know why, as God's spokesmen, they do not have this authority, and they seem to continue looking for that loophole that gives them this authority.  

They think they found that loophole in the church discipline passages.  It is for that reason they inflate the meaning and parameters of church discipline and inflate their own "power" which they read into those passages, and so give themselves far more sweeping control than the passages actually allow.

Ughhhhh....
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2010, 12:53:57 pm »

I couldn't get that one to play so I'm glad to hear someone was able to uncover that gem.  It has become more clear to me the longer I am out that leadership=God's prophet/mouthpiece/voice so if you do not obey then you are disobeying God. 

They do not see any difference.  It is strange and wrong and very scary that the people who hear this on the inside don't see anything wrong with it.  They want to be judge, jury, executioner AND the Holy Spirit.  Gosh.  Power hungry much?

And why all the violent imagery?  Why all the talk of killing, stoning, sacrifice?  It's like the message of Jesus, the grace of the New Testament and the idea of a peaceful reign of a good king is completely foreign.  God is love.  God is good.  God humbled Himself and became one of us.  He did not come to obliterate us!  He came as ONE of US!  He loves humans!  We are His workmanship!

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Linda
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2010, 03:31:50 pm »

I honestly think there is a spiritual blinding that occurs with the leaders in GC. I have no doubt that they really, truly believe what they say. I believe the blindness/error is in the area of "what is the church" and "what is spiritual authority". Obviously, reasoning from the Word doesn't work with people who are inclined to believe that people like us who disagree with their theology and try to point out their error are rebellious and divisive. Because of that, I sometimes feel really sorry for them. They have to cling to their error because some of them have believed it for 40 years. How humbling/frightening/depressing would it be for them to realize they have mislead people in some major areas.

I must admit, I found it easy to believe some of the bad teaching because on the surface it sounds "right". However, as we were leaving, many Christian friends (several of them pastors) gently reminded me that there was a huge difference between OT leadership and NT leadership. To use examples from the OT like Korah's Rebellion to demand obedience to the movement and it's leaders, demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of what transpired at Pentecost.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2010, 04:11:27 pm »

I believed it too!
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Huldah
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2010, 09:26:48 am »

Young says:

Quote
God gives the church the authority to discipline them. Basically kick them out of the church. Excommunicate them. And, again, God does not give the church authority to do death penalty. We can dream, but he didn't. Okay?
On reading that, my first thought was, "Wow, talk about committing murder in your heart."

On further reflection, what comes to mind is, "If you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the heathen do the same?" The Gospel is under attack in our culture. Between the aggressive and articulate "evangelism" of the New Atheism, and the steadily increasing influence of Islam and sharia law in the West, the most charitable thing one can say about leaders who obsess over their own authority is that they're wasting the church's time, as time becomes more and more precious.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 01:31:02 pm by Huldah » Logged
escapee
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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2010, 12:15:45 pm »



GC Attenders:  You can follow God outside of GC.  GC is a codependent organization.  People are looking for "parents" to tell them what to do.  You don't have to be that way!  I believe that GC thrives on codependency.  Some followers NEED the strong arming leaders.  Some leaders NEED the followers, and none of it is about the Christian walk and many times it is either about ego or looking for someone who cares about you.  Get out.  Please.  Get out.  b]

Oh wow. This was me. Exactly. I realized every time I started to have "doubts" in the control and authority it was because I was actually growing up. I was mentally developing. Sheesh, I am so glad I got out but so so sad that it took me ten years. I'm sad I can't get those years back.
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Huldah
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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2010, 01:21:02 pm »

Escapee, you can't get those years back, but God can still use them, perhaps in ways you can't begin to imagine right now.
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