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Author Topic: The Reckoning  (Read 77780 times)
Peace
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« Reply #100 on: March 10, 2018, 01:11:17 pm »

To Those Who Think their GCx church does not practice unbiblical control of negative information about themselves, I challenge you to talk to those who have left; and to those who have been given a negative word about.  
I think you and I would agree it would be weird and inappropriate (and "cult-like") for me to reach out to anyone and everyone who has ever left my church. But yes, as I have stated before in this forum, I have talked to several people close to me who have left. My local church has not "silenced" negative speech about them. But as I have also written before, there have not been public claims of abuse. In my experience at my local church, people typically leave and tell their bible study groups and maybe pastors beforehand, but again, they don't have to do anything, they are FREE to leave how they wish. I have not witnessed the silencing of those leaving, the criticisms found on here, social media reviews and posts that are negative about my church. Not once.

I challenge you to ask your leaders if anyone has ever brought a concern before them and they actually humbly listened and repented in their behavior.  
I have done this dozens of times over the past decade. Details seem irrelevant and would not allow me to remain anonymous.

More importantly how many concerns were brushed off or rebuked by the leader? Zero. Zero of my concerns were met with this. ZERO. I can't state this enough. I know there's little hope in this being believed by some, but I have NEVER been brushed off or rebuked for coming to a pastor or leader with a concern, questions or criticism.

Ask them if they are aware of the abuses GCx taught and practiced that are listed in the book, "Churches That Abuse". Yes, they are aware. Again, no amount of evidence seems to be able to convince you that these practices are not present at my local church. I am careful not to speak on behalf of ALL GCx churches since I obviously do not attend ALL GCx churches. I am speaking about my specific local church.

What practices have they been careful to cease from since they were systematically taught through GCx's discipleship by Jim McCotter? Same answer as above.

If they say, "Don't know much about Jim McCotter or his overriding influence on GCx" or "that's not relevant here" then you have reason to RUN.  
And if they say "We do know of our history associated with the teachings of Jim McCotter and have done and will continue to do our best to ensure these practices are not part of our current local church." I have reason to.......

« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 01:32:28 pm by Peace » Logged
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2018, 01:38:42 pm »

I hear you that not all churches are they same within GC.  However those are all teachings, that were taught from ECC, and some are still available online. 

I do currently attend a church that affirms female pastors.

But that is different than deaconesses, which for some bizarre reason, GC doesn't follow either.  But really is beside the point.

The poster thinks calling somebody girly is an insult.  I think that's telling.

And yes, I've always had much in common with many in GC (and elsewhere in general Christendom).
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #102 on: March 10, 2018, 01:49:32 pm »

I agree.  Thank you, Discerning, for posting "Sharing Jesus with the Cults" (on GCx spiritual abuse).  Some reading here may have never known GCx has been labeled as a "Christian cult" by legitimate Christian organizations.

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For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
Peace
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« Reply #103 on: March 10, 2018, 01:55:14 pm »

Not all GCx members affirm ALL teachings by GCx pastors/churches. There are plenty of messages by a variety of pastors that I just have a different conviction or view about. Based on conversations with these pastors, that is totally OK. I don't think we are supposed to take messages as Biblical truth, but rather they are someone's interpretation and commentary about the Bible. Sometimes these interpretations and commentary are different than mine.

Also...... My church has several deaconesses, women staff, women ministry leads, working moms, stay-at-home dads, ministries devoted to moms and dads and a great variety of "manliness"

Again, lumping all of us GCxer's into one ugly pot just doesn't hold up with the reality that not all GCx churches, pastors, leaders and members are carbon copies of one another. If this abusive teaching is so prevalent and readily available, then I must just be a complete and utter idiot because it is just not here at my local church. (No, I don't think my church is perfect, but many of these claims are just NOT present.)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 01:57:11 pm by Peace » Logged
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #104 on: March 10, 2018, 01:56:49 pm »

I am very happy to hear that. 
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Al
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« Reply #105 on: March 10, 2018, 03:27:05 pm »

Not trying to be difficult, but I assume we remember the topic of this thread, yes? Other forums I've been were/are very strict for staying on topic.
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #106 on: March 10, 2018, 08:20:33 pm »

Though I originally posted this on Scout's topic, I moved it here because I actually had those close to the pastor-in-question in mind after I read the third victim's account.  We do feel and pray for you.

For those who find it difficult to believe that the pastor in questions' abuse was a practice.  I understand.  Shock is a pretty powerful thing.  Remember, we are all sinners.  That's why Jesus came.  But, there are certain things others may do that are so hideously harmful to others that God cannot allow them authority or influence over other people.  Though, God will not reject them personally if they belong to him.  

The abuser must publicly confess his abuse and exploitation and voluntarily step down. He should ask for prayer and get qualified help in his journey to change. He can cooperate with counselors to find out how this came to take over his life. Those who knowingly allowed him to remain in ministry should apologize and step down. Most importantly, he should apologize to every victim of his abuse. And those who publicly dragged any victims' names through the mud should apologize publicly.

Family and friends can still love the sinner, but they should not allow him free reign over potential victims.
He cleans us and redeems all things, if we allow him to, so our lives need not be over, just altered.

I was not under the pastor in question, but all his victims should be heard and allowed to express what they want from him.  
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 08:29:13 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
iamnotafraid
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« Reply #107 on: March 10, 2018, 08:46:53 pm »

I agree He cleans us and redeems all things.  I agree that abusers should confess their abuse.  I do not believe the accused is guilty though.  I think anyone who believes they are a victim should be heard but I do believe there is a way to go about that.  Even if they say they tried mediation one time.  I don't think taking the person in question to court is wrong.  I do think posting accusations on the internet is wrong.  I do think Suzanne's husband John should be standing up for this woman with a stronger voice and more passion to make sure something is done.  He is her spiritual leader and ultimately responsible for her well-being. I can't imagine if my husband hung out in the outfield while I had to take on all the questions.   
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #108 on: March 11, 2018, 05:10:34 am »

Scout's husband is not on trial here, the pastor in question is.  It's his behavior that is much more than questionable.  Signed statements are in progress by the multiple victims of sexual exploitation of THIS man. This is an abuse of power that is sexual.  

I remember when my cousin who did a research paper on GCx first told me how evil Jim McCotter was.  I went into shock.  It took me many months to actually process this and see it for myself.  Just because things are hard to accept does not make them false.

Wait to listen to all the evidence, and give yourself time to process it.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 05:13:35 am by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

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iamnotafraid
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« Reply #109 on: March 11, 2018, 06:15:11 am »

Scout's husband is not on trial here, the pastor in question is.  It's his behavior that is much more than questionable.  Signed statements are in progress by the multiple victims of sexual exploitation of THIS man. This is an abuse of power that is sexual.  

I remember when my cousin who did a research paper on GCx first told me how evil Jim McCotter was.  I went into shock.  It took me many months to actually process this and see it for myself.  Just because things are hard to accept does not make them false.

Wait to listen to all the evidence, and give yourself time to process it.



No one is on trial but this case (if Suzanne can produce actual evidence) should have been handled in court not on social media. It's disturbing to me, this lady would write and post the nonsense she has come up with. I don't think John has much to say because he knows his wife (if they really are still married) is off in more ways than one. I feel bad for John.  Janet, you don't actually know anything you are speculating and that is the truth. It's too bad your cousins research paper convinced you a kind man was evil. I know the McCotter family. I've had dinner with his children a number of times. I actually have a personal experience with his family and you have a relatives book report. Trust me...ill be around through this entire ordeal. As much as some of you want to see this end in the guilt of your brother in Christ. I think a few of you are going to weep at your own personal sin.
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Al
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« Reply #110 on: March 11, 2018, 07:40:40 am »

Though I originally posted this on Scout's topic, I moved it here because I actually had those close to the pastor-in-question in mind after I read the third victim's account.  We do feel and pray for you.

For those who find it difficult to believe that the pastor in questions' abuse was a practice.  I understand.  Shock is a pretty powerful thing.  Remember, we are all sinners.  That's why Jesus came.  But, there are certain things others may do that are so hideously harmful to others that God cannot allow them authority or influence over other people.  Though, God will not reject them personally if they belong to him.  

The abuser must publicly confess his abuse and exploitation and voluntarily step down. He should ask for prayer and get qualified help in his journey to change. He can cooperate with counselors to find out how this came to take over his life. Those who knowingly allowed him to remain in ministry should apologize and step down. Most importantly, he should apologize to every victim of his abuse. And those who publicly dragged any victims' names through the mud should apologize publicly.

Family and friends can still love the sinner, but they should not allow him free reign over potential victims.
He cleans us and redeems all things, if we allow him to, so our lives need not be over, just altered.

I was not under the pastor in question, but all his victims should be heard and allowed to express what they want from him.  

Janet, if the pastor is actually guilty of this, then yes, I don't think anyone would disagree with you on what you're saying. However, it would seem you've already made up your mind by the way you've positioned your statement. What convinces you the most that the pastor is actually guilty of this? Do you go to one of the evergreen churches?
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Digital Lynch Mob
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« Reply #111 on: March 11, 2018, 11:09:31 am »

Janet, you also said, "Wait to listen to all the evidence, and give yourself time to process it."

If only those who've already cast their stones at Mark would do this.
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #112 on: March 11, 2018, 02:08:53 pm »

What the Bible calls EVIL PEOPLE:



"Evil people and imposters will become worse, deceiving and being deceived"        2Timothy 3:13

Listen to what God is saying to you and to the churches through Beth Moores's teaching today and her series on SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT.  She talks about how deception is not something you can see with you eyes but with the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures.  It is God's very personal prompting and warning to us individually through His Spirit that reveals to us things only the Spirit can discern.  Watch her teaching today, September 21st, 2011 on Life Today as she communicates how we are to LISTEN TO THE SPIRIT especially in matters of deception.  God want us to learn to discern for ourselves by His Helper to follow him or go to someone else who is filled with the Spirit and has a operating knowledge of the scriptures and tell them what you are sensing, or feeling.  Today's broadcast as well as all Beth's teachings on www.LifeToday.org can be downloaded instantly for you to watch anytime.  I have given an alternate link because they are updating the Wednesdays with Beth page (on LifeToday).  Below is the link:


http://www.lightsource.com/ministry/wednesdays-with-beth



You may also google Jim McCotter and read about the carnage he leaves wherever he goes.  Unless you are Jim McCotter - then you already know.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 02:39:14 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

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Digital Lynch Mob
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« Reply #113 on: March 11, 2018, 02:32:52 pm »

Yeah, I didn't get the point either - total Non-sequitur.

If you followed her link to the Jim M stuff you can be sure of one thing, since she authored almost everything there, she clearly doesn't like the guy.
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G_Prince
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« Reply #114 on: March 11, 2018, 02:40:52 pm »

Why was Mark cultivating relationships with college girls in the first place? That's what I want to know. It is extremely inappropriate and lends a lot of credence to the accusations.
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Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
Al
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« Reply #115 on: March 11, 2018, 03:48:29 pm »

Why was Mark cultivating relationships with college girls in the first place? That's what I want to know. It is extremely inappropriate and lends a lot of credence to the accusations.

Putting this pastor aside, can a pastor not communicate with another human being in an appropriate manner? Isn't good communication essential if we are to better serve people? Are you saying that depending on the human being, we can't communicate with them? Your statement is a bit confusing so I'm trying to get clarity.
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iamnotafraid
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« Reply #116 on: March 11, 2018, 07:18:57 pm »

Why was Mark cultivating relationships with college girls in the first place? That's what I want to know. It is extremely inappropriate and lends a lot of credence to the accusations.

Your choice of words G_Prince is confusing to me. (cultivating relationships?) Why is Mark (a pastor at a church which the church I attend has about 30% college attendees) speaking to females who are age 18-24?  So when I would come to church and had questions or things to work through and Mark and Greg were my only options, is a discussion with them (or a dozen conversations over a few years) not appropriate because God made me a woman?  I talked to both Mark and Greg over a dozen times about struggles I was going through personally, just like I would talk to a doctor about my physical health challenges.  It seems you are being a little legalistic here.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #117 on: March 11, 2018, 07:29:06 pm »

I’m not opposed to pastors counseling women, but why would a church only have male options for counseling?  It makes sense sometimes, but this is another place where having female deaconesses and counselors would be helpful and wouldn’t violate any “only men as elders” rules.
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G_Prince
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« Reply #118 on: March 11, 2018, 08:11:22 pm »

I’m not opposed to pastors counseling women, but why would a church only have male options for counseling?  It makes sense sometimes, but this is another place where having female deaconesses and counselors would be helpful and wouldn’t violate any “only men as elders” rules.

Right on Agatha. This is a huge red flag. It would have been easy for MD to cultivate inappropriate relationships with women in that context. Lots of power with little oversight. He can play the pastor card and get deep into these women's lives. He seems to have quite the machinery in place to defend himself too. Even now he has a team of apologists in here working overtime trying to obfuscate the situation and questions the victims character.   
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Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
Digital Lynch Mob
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« Reply #119 on: March 11, 2018, 08:30:34 pm »

We're not talking about special counseling sessions, were talking about every day interaction between a pastor and church attendees. Are you saying that men shouldn't talk to women. From what I've read here that is something most here militate against.
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