Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.
De-Commissioned Forum
December 02, 2021, 11:48:39 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home   Forum   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Tom Short is Recruiting....  (Read 26184 times)
AgathaL'Orange
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1182



« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2008, 10:02:59 am »

On a similar note, I supported one GC "missionary" LONG after I left GC because they were friends.  I quit after I attended an event with them and they bought some things that I never would have been able to afford.  My thought was, "If you can afford this without even blinking, you don't need my money!"  

Then there is the flip side within GC where people are cashing in retirement funds to support GC projects!!  Oh, and don't forget that ANY giving not directly to the church (ie campus "missionaries," building campaigns, special outreaches, Tom Short, etc) are IN ADDITION to your 10 percent tithe!  This is ALWAYS stressed.  ALWAYS.  And don't forget the attempts at getting your stimulus check.

I would so much rather see people give to reputable charitable organizations that help poor children or EVEN ONE THAT SENDS KIDS to DISNEYWORLD than to support GCx ever again!
Logged

Glad to be free.
theresearchpersona
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 418



« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2008, 10:49:59 am »

Quote from: "AgathaL'Orange"
In all fairness, there are other missions organizations who have "auxillary" staff paid for by supporters.  Campus Crusade does this.  That said, I have been very discouraged by some Campus Crusade staff members lately and have stopped supporting all of them.  There is one staff member in particular that seems to be living "the dream" on everyone else's dime.  She's always shopping, snorkeling, climbing, travelling, socializing.  I don't know... it just sort of bothers me when "missionaries" have nicer cars, computers, clothes than their supporters.  It seems wrong in some way.  I know people who support CCC and GC staff who wear the same clothes they've had for 6-8 years because they can't afford new ones, while the people they are supporting buy new things all the time!  It just doesn't seem right... especially if the "missionaries" ARE doing something that doesn't seem to really make a big impact like, I don't know, working at an orphanage, putting a well in an impoverished village, working with disadvantaged youth, actively pastoring, doing tribal missions, etc.  Obviously, there will be "auxillary" staff... they are important too, but I think that probably most people who would even dream of supporting Tom Short or people learning from him come from within GC.  Just a hunch, I could be wrong.

Am I just selfish, or does this sort of support of missionaries with questionable missions seem wrong?  Am I horrible in thinking that those living off the hard work of others should live VERY modestly?  Am I a curmudgeon?  Smiley  Don't answer that last question... I'm afraid of what y'all might say!


Campus Crusade was started by a "visionary" BUSINESS MAN; almost all the "parachurches" fall into this category; and incidentally the word "parachurch" actually means "not", or "besides the church", at least by definition. They're not biblical...just a much of peacocks quacking how they're supposedly doing great things "for Christ". GC was heavily influenced by them (just listen to Herschel sometime) as a lot of churches were, thinking how "effective" they seemed (rather than faithful); those I know in the Campus Crusade and such organizations, as the years progress, increasingly become much less about following Christ, and more about an ambiguous sometimes-referred to Christ and start saying "it's all about love". What love is this that would have sociability and preach not the one who loves above all?

One guy on this forum once put it well, that what is masquerading around as "Christianity" is "firmly in the camp of the enemy"; Christians are marked by a common love...of the Truth: a Truth identified: Christ and His Word; and as annoying as I know it is to many, for that I hope to continue harping on the importance of that Word, and I find that when I do, it annoys a bunch of people--especially disobedient ones--but I start finding that more biblical and careful, obedient, people with unfeigned love, and true sociability towards others (not just wanting to use people) are whom I find: not a lot of them, but they're around!
Logged
exshep
Veteran (100-299 Posts)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 260



WWW
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2008, 03:27:41 pm »

Quote from: "namaste"
exshep-
That's the thing that gets me about it.  For what appears to be the majority of the positions available, the individuals would be stretching the bounds of credulity to claim that they're raising support to do missions work.  In actuality, they'd be raising support to build and maintain Tom's website and be his secretary, respectively.

I get asked to donate to a number of very worthy causes.  I've had to say no on occasion (the other day I called the police when some magazine scammer came knocking), but I've never laughed out loud at someone asking for money.  If I got a letter from someone asking for me to pay their salary to be someone else's secretary, I'd laugh out loud.  The entire notion is that absurd.  

The other day, I saw an individual "panhandling" at a busy intersection.  He displayed a sign about being "genuinely homeless, wife has ovarian cancer, just plain hungry."  I thought about giving the guy what I had in my wallet...until I noticed that he was listening to an Ipod and had a blinged-out cellphone holstered on his belt.

The whole "raise support to do the stuff I don't want to do myself" thing reminds me of the panhandler.  What's next?  Raise support to be my nanny, clean my house, or mow my yard?  This is an entry level opportunity, so you get to define just how shiny the floors will be!  And just think- you get to empty TOM SHORT's garbage!   :lol:

To be clear, the last paragraph is entirely tongue 'n cheek.  I just found the entire "work for Tom!" email to be a bit...grandiose and self-important. :wink:


That is a fair comparison, especially with the panhandler analogy
Logged

Had friend in Columbus church 80's and 90s. Member left in 1993  Involved GC in Texas  2005-2007.  Empathy to both  with  positive and negative aspects.
Linda
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2496



« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2008, 05:47:12 pm »

Marrying into a family of pastor's and missionaries, I understand the need for raising support and we contribute a little to missionaries all over the world. One thing I've noticed is that the people we support are always updating us on what they are doing (and it's always worthwhile stuff) and I am happy to say that I can think of none that are not appreciative and demonstrate that by being careful with their money. They also show this by being accountable to those who support them by letting them know what they are doing.

Having said that, I have a really hard time with American churches. State of the art sound and video systems, fancy carefully decorated buildings to "attract" people to Christ (as though the Creator of the Universe needs us to market him), large staffs (doing what, I sometimes ask?), pastors and staff flying off to conferences (always in the Winter in warm places). I really have a hard time giving to churches that are always upgrading equipment and jetting about.

Widows and orphans, those truly in need and Christian workers who demonstrate accountability to the Body. That's who I want to support.
Logged

Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
boboso
Regular (15-99 Posts)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 60



« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2008, 06:42:50 pm »

Now this is something I can really agree about. I'm not sure about what the rest of you believe about giving, but the Bible is clear about helping widows, orphans, and the poor.

The Bible is also very clear about giving with a willful, cheerful heart (and a clear mind) without strings attached. For some churches to demand giving for new unnecessary things when people are barely making ends meet in that same church is flatly repulsive.

My thought is this: if someone has ministered to you and has helped you gain real spiritual growth, it is a privilege to give to them materially. Some of the most wonderful believers we've supported have no "ministry" or "corporation" or "institution" -- they are just loving their God and loving their neighbor daily.

God doesn't need our money for His "ministers" -- He will meet the needs of those who serve Him. It is a gift from Him to be able to give. Especially to those who you know will not be able to repay. Not for show, not for recognition, not to be blessed in return necessarily, but because you are so grateful you can't help but do it anyway.
Logged
steelgirl
Veteran (100-299 Posts)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 114



« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2008, 10:25:46 pm »

Quote from: "AgathaL'Orange"
On a similar note, I supported one GC "missionary" LONG after I left GC because they were friends.  I quit after I attended an event with them and they bought some things that I never would have been able to afford.  My thought was, "If you can afford this without even blinking, you don't need my money!"  

Then there is the flip side within GC where people are cashing in retirement funds to support GC projects!!  Oh, and don't forget that ANY giving not directly to the church (ie campus "missionaries," building campaigns, special outreaches, Tom Short, etc) are IN ADDITION to your 10 percent tithe!  This is ALWAYS stressed.  ALWAYS.  And don't forget the attempts at getting your stimulus check.

I would so much rather see people give to reputable charitable organizations that help poor children or EVEN ONE THAT SENDS KIDS to DISNEYWORLD than to support GCx ever again!


I would not go this far.  There are missionaries in Europe who are really sincere, not to mention they work with other church organiations.  I know of some missionaries that work in one of the darkest placest of the world and they definately need the support especially with the American Dollar being so weak.
Logged
steelgirl
Veteran (100-299 Posts)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 114



« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2008, 10:28:40 pm »

Quote from: "theresearchpersona"
Quote from: "AgathaL'Orange"
In all fairness, there are other missions organizations who have "auxillary" staff paid for by supporters.  Campus Crusade does this.  That said, I have been very discouraged by some Campus Crusade staff members lately and have stopped supporting all of them.  There is one staff member in particular that seems to be living "the dream" on everyone else's dime.  She's always shopping, snorkeling, climbing, travelling, socializing.  I don't know... it just sort of bothers me when "missionaries" have nicer cars, computers, clothes than their supporters.  It seems wrong in some way.  I know people who support CCC and GC staff who wear the same clothes they've had for 6-8 years because they can't afford new ones, while the people they are supporting buy new things all the time!  It just doesn't seem right... especially if the "missionaries" ARE doing something that doesn't seem to really make a big impact like, I don't know, working at an orphanage, putting a well in an impoverished village, working with disadvantaged youth, actively pastoring, doing tribal missions, etc.  Obviously, there will be "auxillary" staff... they are important too, but I think that probably most people who would even dream of supporting Tom Short or people learning from him come from within GC.  Just a hunch, I could be wrong.

Am I just selfish, or does this sort of support of missionaries with questionable missions seem wrong?  Am I horrible in thinking that those living off the hard work of others should live VERY modestly?  Am I a curmudgeon?  Smiley  Don't answer that last question... I'm afraid of what y'all might say!


Campus Crusade was started by a "visionary" BUSINESS MAN; almost all the "parachurches" fall into this category; and incidentally the word "parachurch" actually means "not", or "besides the church", at least by definition. They're not biblical...just a much of peacocks quacking how they're supposedly doing great things "for Christ". GC was heavily influenced by them (just listen to Herschel sometime) as a lot of churches were, thinking how "effective" they seemed (rather than faithful); those I know in the Campus Crusade and such organizations, as the years progress, increasingly become much less about following Christ, and more about an ambiguous sometimes-referred to Christ and start saying "it's all about love". What love is this that would have sociability and preach not the one who loves above all?

One guy on this forum once put it well, that what is masquerading around as "Christianity" is "firmly in the camp of the enemy"; Christians are marked by a common love...of the Truth: a Truth identified: Christ and His Word; and as annoying as I know it is to many, for that I hope to continue harping on the importance of that Word, and I find that when I do, it annoys a bunch of people--especially disobedient ones--but I start finding that more biblical and careful, obedient, people with unfeigned love, and true sociability towards others (not just wanting to use people) are whom I find: not a lot of them, but they're around!


I read a lot of your quotes and you seem to have issues with a lot of churches and organizations besides GCM.  Do you attend a church right now.  Campus Crusade was a great organization even though they did have some imperfections.
Logged
theresearchpersona
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 418



: (
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2008, 01:40:28 am »

I put a rather long reply to several questions, including yours, here:



http://gcmwarning.com:8080/decomm/index.php/topic,462.msg4367.html#msg4367





And to clarify things more, just as EverAStudent suggested, I'm desperate right now to find a biblical, sincere, faithful bible-teaching fellowship; meanwhile I'm kind of working-out a sort of plan/proposal too of how to approach pastors I know of who are (but who're unfortunately at long distances in places I can't go, and which I really couldn't if I wanted or had the means) not only studied, but of good character, and able and sound teachers, to create something of a course of Bible study and systematic instruction; I'm even thinking of how I might establish a sort of biblical-studies center if/when I could find a faithful little Church, involving pastors that are able (and if they would be willing), as well as setting-up a library and making the resources available for such endeavors, while creating something of a reading-list of hermeneutical/applicable (scripture to life)/discerning works; I would like to do something like this and even invite the Churches in the area to come and, well, study and read: and fight things out if they have to, and have whoever is faithful in this or that to encourage others to be. I wouldn't even mind inviting GCers to participate, as in studying the Word closely, perhaps even asking pastors to receive outside instruction/correction (sounds like a long shot, but you never know).



That kind of thing, though, could be far off: if ever near. The closest Church that I know of that might possibly be characterized as trying to be faithful to the scriptures rather than following fads or internal visions, is a little independent 100+ miles away (or something like that), and I can't get there. : (  And moreover I don't even know too much about it, I've just heard very encouraging things about it through friends; and on that note, I now do think I really want to cry. I keep checking into congregations and keep finding...cults: not even kidding you, a trail of paper and histories to prove it: with the proud affiliations of their congregations, with all the modern trappings (relevant music, pragmatic messages, VBS, men's breakfast's women's bible studies, thriving youth ministries run by some very popular guy they sourced from another popular program at a Church elsewhere, the building, the predictable...everything.



I don't even care about any of that, or numbers, or whatever: just want to find able teachers with a couple faithful gathered in the Lord's name for His worship, and not built on things centered around men. Of course a pastor must feed the sheep, but even that's for the Lord's sake more than even for the sheep...because that keeps you doing what's right even if the people don't like to hear what your exegesis and reading of scripture.
Logged
AgathaL'Orange
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1182



« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2008, 09:01:43 pm »

Quote from: "steelgirl"
Quote from: "AgathaL'Orange"
On a similar note, I supported one GC "missionary" LONG after I left GC because they were friends.  I quit after I attended an event with them and they bought some things that I never would have been able to afford.  My thought was, "If you can afford this without even blinking, you don't need my money!"  

Then there is the flip side within GC where people are cashing in retirement funds to support GC projects!!  Oh, and don't forget that ANY giving not directly to the church (ie campus "missionaries," building campaigns, special outreaches, Tom Short, etc) are IN ADDITION to your 10 percent tithe!  This is ALWAYS stressed.  ALWAYS.  And don't forget the attempts at getting your stimulus check.

I would so much rather see people give to reputable charitable organizations that help poor children or EVEN ONE THAT SENDS KIDS to DISNEYWORLD than to support GCx ever again!


I would not go this far.  There are missionaries in Europe who are really sincere, not to mention they work with other church organiations.  I know of some missionaries that work in one of the darkest placest of the world and they definately need the support especially with the American Dollar being so weak.



I really never intend to support any GCx missionary again.   I have no problem supporting people with New Tribes, Send, World Vision... etc, etc, etc.  Just GCx is off the roster permanently.  

I feel like I'm coming off as bitter, yikes... sorry!
Logged

Glad to be free.
theresearchpersona
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 418



« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2008, 05:23:44 pm »

Quote from: "steelgirl"
Quote from: "theresearchpersona"
Quote from: "AgathaL'Orange"
In all fairness, there are other missions organizations who have "auxillary" staff paid for by supporters.  Campus Crusade does this.  That said, I have been very discouraged by some Campus Crusade staff members lately and have stopped supporting all of them.  There is one staff member in particular that seems to be living "the dream" on everyone else's dime.  She's always shopping, snorkeling, climbing, travelling, socializing.  I don't know... it just sort of bothers me when "missionaries" have nicer cars, computers, clothes than their supporters.  It seems wrong in some way.  I know people who support CCC and GC staff who wear the same clothes they've had for 6-8 years because they can't afford new ones, while the people they are supporting buy new things all the time!  It just doesn't seem right... especially if the "missionaries" ARE doing something that doesn't seem to really make a big impact like, I don't know, working at an orphanage, putting a well in an impoverished village, working with disadvantaged youth, actively pastoring, doing tribal missions, etc.  Obviously, there will be "auxillary" staff... they are important too, but I think that probably most people who would even dream of supporting Tom Short or people learning from him come from within GC.  Just a hunch, I could be wrong.

Am I just selfish, or does this sort of support of missionaries with questionable missions seem wrong?  Am I horrible in thinking that those living off the hard work of others should live VERY modestly?  Am I a curmudgeon?  Smiley  Don't answer that last question... I'm afraid of what y'all might say!


Campus Crusade was started by a "visionary" BUSINESS MAN; almost all the "parachurches" fall into this category; and incidentally the word "parachurch" actually means "not", or "besides the church", at least by definition. They're not biblical...just a much of peacocks quacking how they're supposedly doing great things "for Christ". GC was heavily influenced by them (just listen to Herschel sometime) as a lot of churches were, thinking how "effective" they seemed (rather than faithful); those I know in the Campus Crusade and such organizations, as the years progress, increasingly become much less about following Christ, and more about an ambiguous sometimes-referred to Christ and start saying "it's all about love". What love is this that would have sociability and preach not the one who loves above all?

One guy on this forum once put it well, that what is masquerading around as "Christianity" is "firmly in the camp of the enemy"; Christians are marked by a common love...of the Truth: a Truth identified: Christ and His Word; and as annoying as I know it is to many, for that I hope to continue harping on the importance of that Word, and I find that when I do, it annoys a bunch of people--especially disobedient ones--but I start finding that more biblical and careful, obedient, people with unfeigned love, and true sociability towards others (not just wanting to use people) are whom I find: not a lot of them, but they're around!


I read a lot of your quotes and you seem to have issues with a lot of churches and organizations besides GCM.  Do you attend a church right now.  Campus Crusade was a great organization even though they did have some imperfections.


This is another reply, but...I guess you'd say I have problems with so much of what's going on because so many of them are harboring the very same ideas (from the same sources) that lead to the abuses and errors; people praise YWAM...YWAM is now an abusive and manipulative cult worse than GC, openly inviting "apostles" to give their visions and instructions, etc.; GC got many of its things from Crusade; both from business gurus who decided the Church could be put to a better use and made more effective toward that use by applying worldly principles of corporate business rather than opporating as a God-assembled organic family (I'm not kidding you: Leadership Network, the Peter Drucker Foundation, and other things put-together by Bob Buford); these business-like practices including forming massive networks of tens of thousands of organizations which could then all download their materials and brainstorming for implementation: and voila, you have marketed and corporate Christianity...throw-in the originator of much of it (Robert Schuller) and his "School of Successful Church Leadership" with his star students Rick Warren and Bill Hybels, who then took a bunch of Church-Growth work from C. Wagner, and who both confess great esteem, admiration, and familiarity with Peter Drucker and Buford's orgs, and you suddenly have the very pragmatic, very "effective" (but feignedly loving) "Church/Christianity".

It's interesting...but gut-wrenching history. I once told a Christian friend about how GC was running things on business principles...this is a guy I've mentioned before, one who's dealing with the actual cultic-history of his own congregation (and it's hard on him); anyway, he mentioned that his church/it's-group had once tried doing that...they found it turned out "very bad" and abandoned it. We're not the only ones having problems: across the country, Christians who actually do stick to the Bible (vs. merely claiming to) and opposing what is un- & anti- biblical in their congregations are being kicked-out, sometimes in the hundreds.

The results are that entire congregations are fully devoid of any actual mature, biblically-literate (in an unwrested sense) members, and in many cases possibly any real believers: because they're becoming wholly disobedient to the Word--and deny that the Word says anything about how to "do church" (i.e. assemble..."do church" is the way to mask the fact that idea men want to co-opt it for their own design...that's a free translation). This stuff is becoming...the majority of visible Churches. And when you start analyzing some of these popular fads and their implementations you realize it creates tendencies and practices that the cults have used for years.

It makes me wonder whether to keep fighting for congregations who buy into all this, or to go after the Churches which may be a little unsavory or lacking some intellectual/scholarly backgrounds, but which at least want to be obedient and which if you bring up questions they'll gather-round the Word and investigate (some, though not all of, the KJV-onlyists, some, but not all, of the "fundamentalists", etc...). It seems to me like in some of those circles their only real lack is a connection to the scholarly backgrounds and history which seem to ground the Churches in sobermindedness and caution, and that the unsavory aspects are the beginnings of repeats which the Church has dealt with over and over.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
SimplePortal 2.1.1