What would you tell your S/O or friend about GC?

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[exshep]

I am a former Columbus church member are starting to talk about our GC experiences.  It is a beginning of  a healing process.  It is interesting hearing the member describe what she was feeling from her perspective.  

I have already discussed the issue of slander. I was able to show that in the literal NT definition there was no way I could evil accuse her   of slander.  

Gossip is going to be tricky.  Not because of the GC defiinition, but because  I may have genuinely erred in the early years of the schism.  I was trying to find information about her and the church.  I can concede culpability there.   The issues of gossip in GC  and the double standards are  interesting indeed.  Confidentiality issues preclude details.

I have touched on the mind control dynamic in the realm of avoiding negative thoughts.  

The question is  if  you could have a conversation with a long lost friend, what would you want to discuss?  Part is for my own edification; the other is to generate some healing discussion for other forum members.  Private messages and off forum emails are OK for privacy.   Any takers on the topic?

[exshep]

A year later the friend came asking for advice on the very issues.  She insist that it has nothing to do with GC.  I think otherwise, but I can respect her take on the issue.   One day at a time.

[lone gone]

I explained my involvement with the GC movement to my wife. She was aghast that I could be so easily taken in. She explained that it diminished me in her eyes and made me less trustworthy to make good decisions.

While her example is pretty extreme, I do sometimes share with other people that I was in a cult-like church . The reactions to this news vary from indifference, to mild curiosity to outright rejection.

Mentioning that you were involved in any kind of mind-altering/controlling group is a negative in this society.

Sadly, that lack of openness and understanding by narrow-minded and immature people will hinder most people from ever admitting their involvement.  It will always result in a blanket of secrecy under which these groups can continue to operate with impunity.

Good thing I don't plan on running for political office.

[exshep]

I explained my involvement with the GC movement to my wife. She was aghast that I could be so easily taken in. She explained that it diminished me in her eyes and made me less trustworthy to make good decisions.

While her example is pretty extreme, I do sometimes share with other people that I was in a cult-like church . The reactions to this news vary from indifference, to mild curiosity to outright rejection.

Mentioning that you were involved in any kind of mind-altering/controlling group is a negative in this society.

Sadly, that lack of openness and understanding by narrow-minded and immature people will hinder most people from ever admitting their involvement.  It will always result in a blanket of secrecy under which these groups can continue to operate with impunity.

Good thing I don't plan on running for political office.

It is funny you mention the blanket of secrecy.  I encounter the same defense mechanism in "Tammy".    It takes some much energy to maintain the blanket, not to mention the fact that it can pretty uncomfortable in August.

[lone gone]

Yup,  after you get out of the group, your self-imposed shame for being so gullible keeps most people silent.

It's like getting bilked out of your life savings by a con artist. Shame on them AND shame on you for not knowing better.

[Linda]

It's like getting bilked out of your life savings by a con artist. Shame on them AND shame on you for not knowing better.

This is a good way of putting it that I had been pondering just this morning.

I have a friend who recently extracted herself from a very bad real estate deal. She is in her mid-50's, very intelligent, a quick thinker, and had been successfully flipping houses for a few years, so knew some things about the real estate market.

While in the middle of this and suffering from a few sleepless nights, she mentioned to me the reasons she fell for what was obviously a potentially disastrous deal.

They were:

1) TRUST
The realtor making the proposition was an acquaintance and a Christian. A very well done (and seemingly thorough) Powerpoint demonstration was used to tell of the wonders of this investment. The room she was in was filled with people she had known a very long time. Many she had known had done quite well with their investments and she had known them for well over 20 years. She was relaxed with these successful people and therefore, her guard was down.

2) MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE TERMS
Because of the trust relationship she had with the realtor and the other investors, she didn't read the fine print. She just went by the Powerpoint presentation. It was extremely misleading and had the small print terms been pointed out at the big group sales meeting, no one would have signed on the line.

It can be argued whether or not the realtor purposefully deceived. It  could well be that she thought this was a deal with great potential (it certainly was for her!) and was trying to help friends get a cut.

At any rate, people who otherwise might have read the fine print and asked the hard questions didn't because they had confidence in the one making the offer.

3) DESIRE NOT TO OFFEND
Not all who signed up for this "great investment opportunity" have extracted themselves. Some are losing hundreds of dollars a month at the moment on their recently finished and empty townhomes and are praying for an answer. Others, are making the payments, still believing this will turn out good and prove a successful investment. Some are having a hard time still trying to get out of it because in order to do that a confrontation with this realtor/friend is required, so they sit losing hundreds of dollars each month because they still don't want to offend the one who got them into the bad deal. Others don't want to warn the current buyers who are continuing with the payments of the unethical actions on the part of the realtor because it might make her look bad.

So, what's my point?

I have been a Christian for over 34 years. My husband for 51 years. We knew something about churches and church history. We were looking for a church that cared about evangelism. We knew many families who attended ECC from our homeschooling circles. They were nice, wonderful families. Still are, in fact, as far as we are concerned. So, we joined their church.

Since we knew many of the leaders and their families quite well, we didn't want to question friends, so chose to overlook a lot of red flags, attributing most of them in our minds to the "newness" of the church and the "lack of formal training by the leaders".

What was missing from the mix for us was the "founding apostle(s)" part (the small print)! They all knew. And, for whatever reason, his name has never come up. I'm not saying they set out to deceive. In fact, I'm not sure whether all the new pastors at the time who didn't have a history that was traced back to the McCotter days even knew of him.

The bottom line:

We trusted the leaders because they were our friends and we didn't ask pointed questions because they were our friends. Our lack of astuteness and their lack of forthrightness in presenting the full story involving their sordid history met up in a sad parting of the ways.

We are horrified that as parents we put our children in a situation that had the potential to divide our family. We are grateful for the mercy and grace of God who didn't allow that to happen in spite of the Bloomington ECC pastors sending a copy of a letter rebuking us to our grown children. This was an outright act of trying to divide a Christian family and whichever pastor sent it should be very much ashamed of his actions. It was wicked.

[Immortal_Raven]

The bottom line:

We trusted the leaders because they were our friends and we didn't ask pointed questions because they were our friends. Our lack of astuteness and their lack of forthrightness in presenting the full story involving their sordid history met up in a sad parting of the ways.

We are horrified that as parents we put our children in a situation that had the potential to divide our family. We are grateful for the mercy and grace of God who didn't allow that to happen in spite of the Bloomington ECC pastors sending a copy of a letter rebuking us to our grown children. This was an outright act of trying to divide a Christian family and whichever pastor sent it should be very much ashamed of his actions. It was wicked.

Wow, that just strikes me as malicious.  I'm glad your family is still intact and whole, but I'm still shocked.  That a pastor who considers himself to be a Christian would do something that contradicts many of his beliefs.  Personally, I would have found out who did that and punched him.  I hope you didn't, but knowing myself as I do, that's first thing I would have done.  Mess with me all you want, but do not touch my family.

-Immortal_Raven

[MidnightRider]

I explained my involvement with the GC movement to my wife. She was aghast that I could be so easily taken in. She explained that it diminished me in her eyes and made me less trustworthy to make good decisions.
...

Hey, if she married someone so untrustworthy, her decision-making capability is right on par with yours. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.  :wink:

More seriously, GCx looks much better going in than it does when you get inside it. Who wouldn't want to be in a church that has evangelism, Bible studies, close fellowship, and ski trips to Colorado?  

Another observation: Sometimes very smart people can be fooled. They will believe the flawless logic and overlook the false premise.

In my case, I think I can say that GCx was an improvement over the church situation I was in before. As soon as I realized that it was not all it seemed and found something better, I moved on. OK, it took me 5 years. Maybe I should have been more discerning. But at least it didn't take me 6 years.   :oops:

[Linda]

Personally, I would have found out who did that and punched him. I hope you didn't, but knowing myself as I do, that's first thing I would have done. Mess with me all you want, but do not touch my family.

Looking back, I think the letter is a HUGE deal. I think I know who sent it (not certain) although all the ECC Bloomington pastors names were on it (none had personally signed it).

I guess it is one of the reasons I continue to post on this forum. Another big one being the letters of rebuke that came from three pastors over a year after we left.

Those things confirmed to me that there is something really off.

And, you're right, you can mess with me, but don't mess with my family or try to divide us.

For all the talk about unity and not giving bad reports, I think sending a letter to someone's children that speaks ill of their parents is about as low and unbiblical as you can get. After all, honoring your father and mother is one of the 10 commandments.

[maranatha]

" They will believe the flawless logic and overlook the false premise. "

Hi MidnightRider,

Could you elaborate one what the false premise is that is overlooked?

Thank you!

[MidnightRider]

" They will believe the flawless logic and overlook the false premise. "

Hi MidnightRider,

Could you elaborate one what the false premise is that is overlooked?

Thank you!

The answer might be different for different people. So maybe we should have some discussion about it.

To whoever is interested: What was the line of reasoning that convinced you that GCx was the right/best/only church? Where did you go wrong?

My answer might be similar to yours, maranatha. Looking at your post
Is the ' Great Commission' the main thing?  http://gcmwarning.com:8080/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=382

and comparing it to mine
“Every nation, this generation”  http://gcmwarning.com:8080/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=136

My current thinking is that GCx's emphasis on the Great Commission as _the_ prime directive for the Christian life is the source of a lot of their problems, and I did not give it much critical thought in the early part of my time in the church. When you try to organize all Christian wisdom and ethics and theology as sub-points under the heading "reaching the world with the gospel in this generation", you are going to get problems.

It all seemed reasonable at the time. And besides, who wants to be in the position of being against the Great Commission?

[TurnLeft]

 I have felt the shame you are talking about.  I had the Scripture, and I had the Holy Spirit.  How could I be so stupid?

1) I was a young Christian with very little training in the basics of faith.  I didn't grow up in a Christian home and was never taught the catechism.  I was eager to be taught, and GCx was eager to teach me. They were Christians who actually read the Bible and acted on what they read, albeit in error.  Who else was doing that?  The Navigators were, but they also were very cult-ish.

2) GCx'ers had so much zeal.  And their fellowship was so intimate.  They were offering something worth living for, something so much bigger than our mundane lives.  It was very attractive!

3) We are fallen.  Even our minds were affected in the fall (though some of the leaders, including HM, did not believe that ).  That aspect of fallenness is one of the hardest for me to accept--in myself or in others. 

[TurnLeft]

Just one more thing.....

What shamed person among us hasn't recognized, more deeply than ever, our great need for our Savior??  If the fallen-ness of my brain had not been exposed to me in such a painful way, I would not see my need to turn to Him for understanding.  My mind may never be clear.  But clarity of mind never saved anyone.

In repentence and rest is your salvation.  In quietness and trust is your strength.

[lone gone]

 Reading the scriptural stories of the old and new testament believers, we see over and over again their folly. From Adam who fell through Abraham who doubted,through Moses who didn't enter the promised land, through David whose heart for God failed him, through Solomon whose God-given wisdom could not deliver him, to the Apostles who STILL hadn't "gotten it" even after God in the flesh had it explained to them... and onwards.....

Who could possibly think that by simply knowing about the mistakes of others that we automatically get a bye on making our own mistakes.

We are sinners..... saved by Grace. I cling to my Savior because that is all I have.... His salvation of me from my sins. All my righteous deeds are as filthy rags. ( look up a commentary of what filthy rags means and you'll see it is pretty disgusting. God is SO holy that even our best efforts are contaminated.) Glory to God that He has indeed saved me, a poor miserable sinner!

[theresearchpersona]

I cling to my Savior because that is all I have.... His salvation of me from my sins. All my righteous deeds are as filthy rags. (look up a commentary of what filthy rags means and you'll see it is pretty disgusting [quoter's editing: "throw-away menstrual rags"]. God is SO holy that even our best efforts are contaminated.) Glory to God that He has indeed saved me, a poor miserable sinner!

Verily.

Often a little voice in my head says "what are you doing, this is so stupid, you could be doing so much right now unhindered (i.e. by obedience, seeking the Lord's things, and such), [dot] [dot] [dot]", but "the heart of my mind", as I'll put it, is not "in it", that is, the sentiment of that rationalist voice who would elevate reason--and his goals--above God's will; it's like the old man pleading, but weakly against the Spirit; I've always responded "but He's all I have" (that is, Jesus); I cling desperately. Poor fools who'd mock such the silly Christian as an idiot--they don't know what state they're in under God. Makes me angry when evangelists go around telling them "God loves you, has a wonderful plan for your life, love the sinner hate the sin"; apparently they've never read the Psalms, or even the NT's depiction of man as hateful before God, or that He knows how to keep sinful man under His wrath, and etc... The fear (terror) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, among other things.

"The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak", I know my struggles, and whatnot, and how "powerful" the flesh seems to us in its weakness. It's not so much passage after passage memorized, though, that seems to keep me obedient, it's this command, at least it has been recently, 2 Timothy 2v.19, "[...] Let every one that nameth the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness", though it's been in my head as "[...] Let all who call on the name [note that "call" is little different from "name" in either older English, or any other language] of the Lord Jesus Christ depart from iniquity".

I find I can "remember" commands, etc., but still feel as if the word is powerless, and this one in particular, however, makes me "remember remember" Christ, and His Lordship, and remembering it's His command, I find myself obedient.

Remembering, I mean REALLY calling to mind in total apprehension, of who it is commanding us, is one thing that makes that word powerful; and I'm not speaking of Just terror here, either: at once hearing that command I apprehend both terror, and deep, satiated, love.

[ISU Alumna]

Good thing I don't plan on running for political office.

  I can certainly share that sentiment with you, lone gone!  The world at large does not easily forgive certain errors in judgment. And I happen to have made many of those kinds of errors, too. I can't say that I "regret" making the mistakes that I needed to make, in order to learn the lessons that I needed to learn. But politically speaking, I'd be dead meat.

By the way, what I tell my significant other (and anybody else) is that I was a member of a Christian cult. Most people find that very interesting, and want to talk about it. Nobody has ever shunned me for it, or said that they thought less of me for it.

Guess I'm lucky to have such cool friends.