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Author Topic: Shepherding & arranged marriage  (Read 20852 times)
exshep
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« on: March 17, 2007, 10:52:23 am »

I cannot put my fingers on the citation. It is from either articles in the Montgomery County [Maryland] Sentinal, a privately written fact sheet or personal experiences from former members. I definitely remember the topic of arranged marriages.

Feel free to correct or clarify. I do remember a double standard between the men and the women when it came to marriage. If a brother had a strong desire for a sister in the church, the elders would conveniently arranged it. The verbiage ranged from “It is God’s will that you marry _______” to “the Lord has put it on my heart that you wed ________”. If a sister had a strong relationship with a brother that could pass muster for a lifetime relationship, the elder would squelch with. “I just do not feel it is the Lord’s will”.

I remembered a phone conversation I had with a elder in the summer of 1984. I was inches away from joining the incarnation of GC at the time. [How fate or the hand of God intervened is another post. Make of it what you will.] I had a close female friend who extend an invitation to come out to “Midwest City” get involved with the church. We were casually talking about the sister. The elder, obviously glowing, “Yeah, ‘Bobbie’ sure is on fire for the Lord.” Hormones and the fact that this conversation was over 20 years ago not withstanding, I could not help but discern the hidden comment “wink, wink, nudge, nudge, and if you come out I am sure we can work things out between you and Bobbie”
Am I reading something into it, or do I smell the makings of a transaction with Honest Al’s Used Car Emporium?

Thankfully that recipe for disaster was never tried, at least in my situation. I still trying to draw my conclusions to this blog. It does show how the elders were trying to play Holy Spirit when it came to that important day.
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Had friend in Columbus church 80's and 90s. Member left in 1993  Involved GC in Texas  2005-2007.  Empathy to both  with  positive and negative aspects.
hope
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2007, 10:52:37 am »

“It does show how the elders were trying to play Holy Spirit”



i think this is an interesting comment. does the Holy Spirit ever lead person X in matters that regard person Y?



if so- i think when it comes to matters that involve person Y- the leading of the Holy Spirit in person Y should trump anything that person X thinks.



can we blame person X for wanting to help give direction to person Y in personal matters? i suppose this boils down to intention (which we can never truly know- only perceive) and the exact handling of the situation.



if a person (church leader) were to ever say to me, “you know hope- i think you should do XYZ with your life.” I guess i feel like i’m confident with my relationship with the Holy Spirit to be able to disagree. i’d say: “you know what? the HS and I don’t think so! but thanks for caring anyways!”
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2007, 10:52:55 am »

can we blame person X for wanting to help give direction to person Y in personal matters? i suppose this boils down to intention (which we can never truly know- only perceive) and the exact handling of the situation.



if a person (church leader) were to ever say to me, “you know hope- i think you should do XYZ with your life.” I guess i feel like i’m confident with my relationship with the Holy Spirit to be able to disagree. i’d say: “you know what? the HS and I don’t think so! but thanks for caring anyways!”




Hope: I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. I think advice/direction is fine, and healthy disagreement is wonderful. And I agree as well that it all boils down to the exact handling of each situation.



Honest Al’s Used Car Emporium



Ex-shep, I couldn’t help but chuckle when I read this phrase. I’ve often felt that if my old pastor hadn’t ended up as a pastor, he would have made one heck of a used car salesman.
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2007, 10:54:45 am »

Forgot the Cheesy



Smiley
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hope
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2007, 10:55:03 am »

ahh yes- but then even the “exact handling” of the situation can be interpreted differently!!



there needs to be a rule book….



oh wait! there is the bible! Smiley
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exshep
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2007, 10:55:20 am »

Valid point, Hope. Let me provide some clarification. Shepherding was abberant belief system where the leaders were the “ultimate” authority in all matter including how to interpret scripture, finances, where to live, work, who to marry, how to raise the children and so on.

On the surface that sounds fine and noble. It looks great on paper. This is how one ends with an abusive system described in the blog. It is an extremely subtle twist and hard to detect sometimes. The leaders become the final arbiter in all matters as opposed to the Holy Spirit. Free will and discernment is trumped. From a biblical perspective, a Christian is admonished to test all things and hold fast to what is good. The proverbs advise that in the multitude of counselors there is safety. Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit guiding us into all truth and understanding.

When I proposed to my wife, I also checked the possibility of marriage via several channels. Mind you I was not in a church setting at the time. I did run it past family. My wife ran it past her family. I discussed it with my support groups. I am known for being rigorously honest and transperent. It passed muster through all camps. I was attending a Quaker meeting, it was brought forth to a member on the ministry committe who reacted favorably.

One thing that caused me to leave my group and soured my relationship the McCotter era GC and “Bobbie” was the trumping of the Holy Spirit. I was a prospective student in a bible school I was a regular attender in the church services on campus. Everytime something major went wrong I would go to the prayer room on campus. One night I caught myself, “Wait just one minute. Hold it, hold it, HOLD EVERYTHING !!! If the earth is the Lord’s and the fulness therein, then why do I need to go to the bible school to pray when the Lord is just as present right here. Shep, you have an idol problem.” I I was dependent on the bible school for my ultimate direction instead of the Lord. I used to tire of students who would say, “Gee, I really missed the presence of the Lord when I went home this weekend”. It was never my intention to come across being sarcastic; nevertheless I always wanted to come back with, “You can’t find God in Philadelphia?”

Conversely, everytime I had an issue with Bobbie, she sidestepped the issue with “talk to the elders they have ALL the answers”. My response, “I am confused, I thought we were supposed to have [our own] answer of the hope that is within us with gentleness and respect” I realize this must be the epitome of cruelty, but I have wanted to confront Bobbie when defers to the elders, “OK, so you are telling me you going to be before the throne on the great judgement day and you are going to refer your salvation to the elders? I don’t think you are going to get too far”.

In both cases something trumped our walks with the Lord. You might find an internet serch on the Shepherding Discipleship movement or spiritual abuse helpful. I realize GC was never part of the Movement of Mumford et al. I just provided the references for the sake of perspective. Feel free to agree to disagree. If there is something I did not cover, let me know.
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Had friend in Columbus church 80's and 90s. Member left in 1993  Involved GC in Texas  2005-2007.  Empathy to both  with  positive and negative aspects.
exshep
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« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2007, 10:55:31 am »

One other thing. Much his credit, the associate pastor where I go made a refreshing remark, “Don’t just trust the pastors for all the answers. Broaden your search. Try Christian radio, bookstores, the internet, and the commentaries in the library …..”

Of course this was directed towards an evangelical audience; Compared to the “the elders say it, its is finished”, the pronouncement struck me as a much needed breath of fresh air. It made my day.
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Had friend in Columbus church 80's and 90s. Member left in 1993  Involved GC in Texas  2005-2007.  Empathy to both  with  positive and negative aspects.
exshep
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« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2007, 10:56:57 am »

As long the word is being rightly divided. When it is being wrongly divided, that is when the problems start. Lucky for me, I took a class in herneneutics in the night division of the bible. It helped me smell out a few rats.

I would suggest Scripture Twisting by James Sire, IVP, 1980

Twisted Scriptures : A Path to Freedom from Abusive Churches
by Mary Alice Chrnalogar

www.spiritualabuse.com

Might provide some perspective.
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Had friend in Columbus church 80's and 90s. Member left in 1993  Involved GC in Texas  2005-2007.  Empathy to both  with  positive and negative aspects.
exshep
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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2007, 10:57:09 am »

Honest Al’s Used Car Emporium

Ex-shep, I couldn’t help but chuckle when I read this phrase. I’ve often felt that if my old pastor hadn’t ended up as a pastor, he would have made one heck of a used car salesman.


Laughing right along with you
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Had friend in Columbus church 80's and 90s. Member left in 1993  Involved GC in Texas  2005-2007.  Empathy to both  with  positive and negative aspects.
exshep
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« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2007, 10:57:31 am »

Of course I cannot buy a bottle of Slick 50 with a straight face. Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2007, 10:57:52 am »



ahh yes- but then even the “exact handling” of the situation can be interpreted differently!!



there needs to be a rule book….



oh wait! there is the bible!




Hmmm. I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at here, but I’ll tell you what I’m getting out of it. Something like: While people may not interpret a situation in the same manner, they’ll all interpret the Bible in the same way as it applies to their situation?



Is that what you’re trying to get at?
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« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2007, 10:58:07 am »

“Wait just one minute. Hold it, hold it, HOLD EVERYTHING !!! If the earth is the Lord’s and the fulness therein, then why do I need to go to the bible school to pray when the Lord is just as present right here. Shep, you have an idol problem.”



Wow, thanks for posting, ex-shep. I never thought of what happened in GCM in that manner - as an idol problem. I need to mull that over more, but I just wanted to say thanks for the post and that it’s giving me food for thoughts.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2007, 10:58:23 am »

A friend of mine says, “Many of the idols in America go by the name of Jesus Christ.” I think that there is truth in this when people make Christ into the image they choose rather than the true Christ. I think this is why studying the Bible and pastors going to seminary is important. But obviously as ex-shep says, Bible school shouldn’t be what we worship.
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hope
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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2007, 10:58:42 am »

ahh yes- but then even the “exact handling” of the situation can be interpreted differently!!



there needs to be a rule book….



oh wait! there is the bible!



Hmmm. I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at here, but I’ll tell you what I’m getting out of it. Something like: While people may not interpret a situation in the same manner, they’ll all interpret the Bible in the same way as it applies to their situation?



Is that what you’re trying to get at?



———————————-



i’m sorry that was so confusing….i was just typing out the inner dialogue in my head….my first thought was: i can think i have handled a situation gently- but then the person sitting next to me might think i did a horrible job…

and then i thought: gosh i wish there was a rule book that we could all live by so that when certain procedures were followed out exactly then everyone would know what was meant.

and then i thought: duh- isn’t the bible supposed to be our rule book for living?



but then- even people interpret the bible differently so i guess in the end we are all screwed and bound to just misunderstand each other. oh blimey!



i’m not being sarcastic at all.

i was litrrally just typing one thought after another…maybe i shouldn’t do that
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hope
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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2007, 10:59:21 am »

thanks shep for those excellent comments.



i have read “The Other Side of Discipleship” by Larry Pile regarding the sheparding movement of Bob Mumford. and i totally agree that this type of discipleship is abusive.



i guess what i mostly aim to do on this blog is provide some “hope” for those who experienced this type of discipleship within GCM by letting them know that in all my own personal experience with GCM (which was within the last 10 years) i was never abused in this way. nor did I ever hear of anyone in my church being kicked out for being divisive. i truly believe- at least within the GCM church that i attended- that this type of abusive discipleship is a thing of the past.
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exshep
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« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2007, 11:00:02 am »

i guess what i mostly aim to do on this blog is provide some “hope” for those who experienced this type of discipleship within GCM by letting them know that in all my own personal experience with GCM (which was within the last 10 years) i was never abused in this way. nor did I ever hear of anyone in my church being kicked out for being divisive. i truly believe- at least within the GCM church that i attended- that this type of abusive discipleship is a thing of the past.

I believe you. For me, most of the abuse was 1970s-c1990. Today it depends where one goes to church. If only had involvement with the GC church I attend today, I would be completely out of the loop as a rank and file member, as far as the history of the group is concerned.

Tonight I listened to a sermon on doubt, a topic in the 1980s Columbus or Washington DC church which would have resulted in excommunication or a massive chewing out by the elders. Historically, the member was taught to doubt was tantamount to moral failure and being out of the will of God. I thanked the pastor for preaching on a topic which was historically anathema in GC. He was unaware that was a problem since he was in another part of the country. He was truly sorry I had to be subjected to it.

Stepping outside the GCAC realm. I had a friend in the east coast who had difficulty with the Reformed Baptist Church. The leaders were legalistic and heavy handed. For him, it was a blessing to leave. I had a roommate who was in the RBC. He was committed to his convictions, but share his faith in love and respect. I felt safe rooming with him. My only complaint with the church was that I found the services to be dry. It did not do anything for me. Why a church in the midwest is OK and one in the Philadelphia is abusive is a mystery.

Today there are some great Great Commission churches that I love and adore. There are definitely some which leave me chilled in terror. It definitely creeps up in some quarters, but not in others. I would not be surprised to hear that you were out of the abusive loop. It you started going to church 10 years ago, you may missed the issues, which generated the blog, by several years or a few hundred miles. I also know there are recent members and even current members who have their suspicions.

I can see where you points are valid.
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Had friend in Columbus church 80's and 90s. Member left in 1993  Involved GC in Texas  2005-2007.  Empathy to both  with  positive and negative aspects.
exshep
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« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2007, 11:00:18 am »

“Wait just one minute. Hold it, hold it, HOLD EVERYTHING !!! If the earth is the Lord’s and the fulness therein, then why do I need to go to the bible school to pray when the Lord is just as present right here. Shep, you have an idol problem.”

Wow, thanks for posting, ex-shep. I never thought of what happened in GCM in that manner - as an idol problem. I need to mull that over more, but I just wanted to say thanks for the post and that it’s giving me food for thoughts.
********

I am glad that you got something out of it. The above quote was actually refering to a pentecostal bible I walked out of, not GC.

I could make an arguement that there was a deification of the elders. I sure I butchered the latin. Elderum causum loco finitum. It is a take off on the Roman Catholic edict Roma causa loco finitum. The latter refers to the authority of the governing Holy See. Rome says it, it is finished. Conversely, the elders say it , it is finished. [Keep in mind I do not have any anti-Catholic nor anti-GCI rhetoric in mind. I am only using the parallels as cases in point]
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« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2007, 11:02:54 am »

Haha, hope, thanks for clarifying. Nothing wrong with what you did. It’s just hard to tell over the internet when someone’s just giving a glimpse of their stream of consciousness. I get that you were just “thinking out loud” now. Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2007, 11:03:09 am »

I could make an arguement that there was a deification of the elders. I sure I butchered the latin. Elderum causum loco finitum. It is a take off on the Roman Catholic edict Roma causa loco finitum. The latter refers to the authority of the governing Holy See. Rome says it, it is finished. Conversely, the elders say it , it is finished. [Keep in mind I do not have any anti-Catholic nor anti-GCI rhetoric in mind. I am only using the parallels as cases in point]



Whooboy. I have zero background in church history, so this is just a bunch of gobbldygook to me. Smiley I’m still mulling over the whole idol idea. I’m not sure if it applies where I went, but I’m also not sure it DOESN’T apply……



About your post, Today there are some great Great Commission churches that I love and adore. There are definitely some which leave me chilled in terror., I’d be interested to hear which ones you love and adore and which left you chilled in terror…. Though, if you don’t want to post them on this site, I’d understand that!
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exshep
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« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2007, 06:56:29 pm »

Quote from: "archive"
Dipping my toes in.... wrote:

I could make an arguement that there was a deification of the elders. I sure I butchered the latin. Elderum causum loco finitum. It is a take off on the Roman Catholic edict Roma causa loco finitum. The latter refers to the authority of the governing Holy See. Rome says it, it is finished. Conversely, the elders say it , it is finished. [Keep in mind I do not have any anti-Catholic nor anti-GCI rhetoric in mind. I am only using the parallels as cases in point]

Whooboy. I have zero background in church history, so this is just a bunch of gobbldygook to me. :) I’m still mulling over the whole idol idea. I’m not sure if it applies where I went, but I’m also not sure it DOESN’T apply……

About your post, Today there are some great Great Commission churches that I love and adore. There are definitely some which leave me chilled in terror., I’d be interested to hear which ones you love and adore and which left you chilled in terror…. Though, if you don’t want to post them on this site, I’d understand that!



I was quite happy in Grace Community Church in Plano TX  2005-2007 until things started unraveling. There were  and apparently are departures in staff.  Since the church is nominally involved in GCM today, I would be inclined to say that it was situation out of the usual realm of GC complaints.  There was never any coercion or hidden agenda. George Feiser and Steve Lucas were open and accessible.  It was a most enjoyable time.  For me,  it was clear the Lord was closing the door on Texas.  Moving back to Ohio was the best thing I ever did.

I also enjoyed visiting Hope Fellowship Denton.  We had open discussions on GC history good and bad.    I liked Brother Patel.  I found him to be a wise man.  He preached on Sundays and let the students take care of the fellowship details.  I did come up to UNT  for an afternoon to work a  table when Tom Short came to preach.  It will be a sad day when they get their own church building. They current meet in a downtown art gallery.  The combination of the paintings, the fresh baked goods and the worship made for an intimate setting.   The UP trains could be  a bit distracting; but this railroad buff loved every minute of it.
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Had friend in Columbus church 80's and 90s. Member left in 1993  Involved GC in Texas  2005-2007.  Empathy to both  with  positive and negative aspects.
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