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Author Topic: Women and GC  (Read 65983 times)
exshep
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« Reply #100 on: March 21, 2007, 09:59:15 pm »

7. Those responsible for teaching the Bible in a local church (i.e. pastors, elders) should teach their personal conviction about the previous six questions, based on how they understand and interpret the Bible. To bind these teachings on any man or woman and equate demonstrated obedience with salvation is flawed (we are saved by grace, not by the law or works). Yet, we would expect teachers to be convinced in their own mind of what is the best application of Biblical principles, and ask others to consider a similar conviction.

Actually the above thesis is seriously flawed. Elders and pastors are responsible for the right direction of the flock and held to a stricter standard. One is responsible for rightly dividing the word of truth. I would expect my pastor to be trained in homiletics and hermeneutics. If a pastor is not correctly interpreting scripture, they should update their resumes. I would expect my doctor to go to medical school, my mechanic to be ASE certified, and my barber to have to the proper state licenses to set up shop. Pastors are not exempted. A leader is responsible for the ultimate well being of his flock. Jesus did in fact bind the above teachings. Read Matthew 23. Pastor should not teach personal conviction, but a correct interpretation of scripture in its historical or allegorical context.

I can speak from my own experience. The elders I knew were poorly trained, rambled, and had a poor grasp on scriptural interpretation. There was no room for discussion. The elders said it, it was finished. The Columbus church salvation was a works dynamic. The most egregious example was a member working overtime, and taking 20 hours of bible classes to prove herself. There was a constant performance dynamic of you are not _______ enough [praying, witnessing, teaching]. I have seen members in a constant state of exhaustion trying to keep up. I have also had GC members and elders brush aside any reference to Ephesians 2.2-8. It always struck me as the type of legalism the Paul blew a gasket in the book of Galatians.
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Had friend in Columbus church 80's and 90s. Member left in 1993  Involved GC in Texas  2005-2007.  Empathy to both  with  positive and negative aspects.
exshep
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« Reply #101 on: March 21, 2007, 09:59:45 pm »

Quote
Okay, Agatha sent me this link, and Gene and I listened to it tonight (our version of a “date night”). Anyway, it’s from last year’s Faithwalkers (what a gold mine last year was!) called “Godly Women in an Ungodly World.”

http://www.gccweb.org/conferences/faithwalkers/2005audio/03-SeminarA1.mp3

Listen for the following:
1. Women as “pillars of support and influence” for the men who are the doers.
2. Women as temptresses, and men as erections waiting to happen.
3. GC women as pure and the “culture” as slutty (us v them).
4. Women as too talkative and needing to “watch themselves.”
5. Assuming everyone’s getting married and that they’re marrying GC men.
6. Women as servants.

Basically, everything we’ve been talking about and more (even the clothes stuff from other posts about thongs!).

Look forward to your responses!
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I also mentioned it in another blog. Quite frankly the above just does not compute. I was having enough difficulty reconciling the fact I was nearly married off. I am shocked. I usually stayed to detached from the GC milieu. I have been there, seen it done that, and got the T shirt. I thought I had seen it all– until this beauty. I ran this blog past a friend who has been in the Asssemblies of God most of her life. She was shocked. Did I just get hit with a 2×4? It is going to take me a few days to get the nerve to listen to that one.
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Had friend in Columbus church 80's and 90s. Member left in 1993  Involved GC in Texas  2005-2007.  Empathy to both  with  positive and negative aspects.
Genevieve
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« Reply #102 on: March 21, 2007, 09:59:56 pm »

Kirsten,
Thanks for your response, and I’m sorry I’ve been so snarky in the past few comments. I don’t think there’s never a place for that kind of advice/examples. I think it can be helpful, and, you’re right, there are lots of books about it (I was raised via the Dr. Dobson method).

So, yes, relationships are hard. People may need some self-help style advice and examples. That can be beneficial and is not necessarily wrong.

I guess when I was in GC it seemed like almost every sermon was devoted to some of these lifestyle choices. People tried to find a mate the same way (already discussed). They tried to parent the same way (homeschool, spank this way). They tried to be married the same way (date night once a week, husbands should do finances. [I made my husband take over the finances for awhile after our couples small group spent several weeks on this issue; managing the finances is part of being a godly man, don’t ya know?]).

No, not everyone did the exact same things, but there definitely seemed to be certain things you should do to be a “good” parent and spouse.

So, I guess I don’t think it’s wrong to give practical ideas, but GC seemed to give the same ideas so often that they became more like measuring sticks than helpful advice.
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Genevieve
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« Reply #103 on: March 21, 2007, 10:00:07 pm »

Ex-shep,
Do you mean my claims are like a 2×4 or the message itself?
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exshep
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« Reply #104 on: March 21, 2007, 10:00:19 pm »

Trust me, I meant the message. My apologies for the misplaced modifier.
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Had friend in Columbus church 80's and 90s. Member left in 1993  Involved GC in Texas  2005-2007.  Empathy to both  with  positive and negative aspects.
exshep
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« Reply #105 on: March 21, 2007, 10:00:31 pm »

I wish I still had the training video on sexual harassment from my former employer. Some of the lines mentioned in the talk would voilate the company’s harassment policies.
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Had friend in Columbus church 80's and 90s. Member left in 1993  Involved GC in Texas  2005-2007.  Empathy to both  with  positive and negative aspects.
G_Prince
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« Reply #106 on: March 21, 2007, 10:01:15 pm »

I don’t mean to shift focus off women, but I think there is a commonality in GC’s teaching on both Men’s and Women’s roles. Both attempt to whitewash people with a certain “prototype.” For men it’s the macho, cowboy William Wallace warrior, for women it’s the busy bee helper drone. Both wreak serious havoc on your psyche.

When I attended GC, I found myself at constant odds with my adopted, GC man prototype. However, I believed the problem was me. I wasn’t good enough. I wasn’t doing enough, I wasn’t a good enough leader, etc (I’m sure many are familiar with these thoughts). What I didn’t understand was that GCM was deeply flawed, always asked too much, had bizarre ideas about leadership, etc.

Because I could never measure up to the ideal man, I had major issues with self hatred. A part of me was deeply “rebellious” and always at odds with what I thought was the right way to live. This part of me had serious questions about GC’s man prototype. It hated being told what to, do how to live, and how to dream. I became an extremely divided person internally because one part of me wanted to measure up to what I thought was truth (GCM’s) while the other part said, “I’m not convinced of this bull sh*t.”

Even now, years after leaving GCM, I’m still shaking off my old world view. I’ve had to reject and reexamine almost everything I know about myself and start from scratch. I’ve almost had to re-introduce myself to myself (rebellious side: High, my name is Gene and I like to waste time reading French Literature. GC recovery side: That’s cool Gene, sorry I was a jerk. You where right about the bull sh*t. ).

So I think that man or woman, there is a common battle between who GC wants you to be and who you really are. They want to steal your identity, individuality, and dreams and re-forge them into something they can use for the cause. If you’re in GC, guard yourself and fight their attempts to get in. Listen to what your heart tells you and ignore them when they say that its desires are corrupt.
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Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
Kirsten
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« Reply #107 on: March 21, 2007, 10:01:27 pm »

Genevieve — Thanks for your response too — I didn’t think you were being snarky. Smiley I appreciate hearing where you were coming from.
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exshep
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« Reply #108 on: March 21, 2007, 10:01:40 pm »

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When I attended GC, I found myself at constant odds with my adopted, GC man prototype. However, I believed the problem was me. I wasn’t good enough. I wasn’t doing enough, I wasn’t a good enough leader, etc (I’m sure many are familiar with these thoughts). What I didn’t understand was that GCM was deeply flawed, always asked too much, had bizarre ideas about leadership, etc.

Because I could never measure up to the ideal man, I had major issues with self hatred

Thanks for the confirmation. I knew members drive themselves into the ground trying to prove themselves, both men and women. I ran a friend from college on another campus. She looked like a bag lady. It was not a pretty sight.
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Had friend in Columbus church 80's and 90s. Member left in 1993  Involved GC in Texas  2005-2007.  Empathy to both  with  positive and negative aspects.
Angie
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« Reply #109 on: March 21, 2007, 10:02:00 pm »

Mamie, I know that other women are not all as lucky or as free as I am… both in GC and outside of it.



Gene, I can say nothing other than that sucks. A lot… feeling forced by your culture that your natuarl self wasn’t enough. I am confident that God has made each of us, men & women to reflect His glory in a unique way, and to force one another into a mold cuts off the opportunity to give greater glory to God….



1 Cor. 12:7 “Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.”:
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exshep
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« Reply #110 on: March 21, 2007, 10:02:13 pm »

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1 Cor. 12:7 “Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.”:

If somebody had taken the directive seriously we would not be in this mess. Tragically the elders worked in exclusion to the workings of the Holy Spirit — at least in the settings I was familiar with [Columbus and Washington DC churches in the 80’s]
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Had friend in Columbus church 80's and 90s. Member left in 1993  Involved GC in Texas  2005-2007.  Empathy to both  with  positive and negative aspects.
The Clone
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« Reply #111 on: March 21, 2007, 10:03:39 pm »

Does anyone know why Mark Darling has such an oppinion now that he must help men be men? I was listening to one of his sermons recently online called, “What in the World is the Rock Here For, Part 3.” He bascially said he wears a leather jacket so he portrays to men that he is manly and it is okay to be manly in this highly femininized world.

Not sure what this will turn into, but felt this related to the topic in this thread, if I can use IT terms.

On the P.S. part, Mark Darling really really scares me as he yells about how manly he is and can protect the men of The Rock of Minneapolis.

-The Clone talking about Mark Darling
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« Reply #112 on: March 21, 2007, 10:03:49 pm »

That’s funny Mark Darling would say that about his leather jacket. We’ve always heard him say through the years that he wore his leather jacket to look cool and hip so that he could relate better to the world. (my words here)



He scares me too. And I’ve seen him scream and yell and berate his bride, oops I mean his church, so much that people would leave crying. (large all-location gatherings)
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exshep
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« Reply #113 on: March 21, 2007, 10:04:06 pm »

A few months ago, I received an email from GCAC containing an mp3 with Mark Darling, doing a promo for Faithwalkers, leather jacket and all. I used to work in a better mens shop in a high end department store. I hate to say it, but the jacket makes him look rather effeminate. If he is trying to look manly, he just shot himself in the foot.

I have to laugh at the clerical garb of GC pastors. I have noticed the Hawaiian shirts in most churches. I asked the pastor at the church I attend if that were a national directive. He laughed and understood how I arrived at the conclusion.

My wife and I once threatened to really go upscale. I was threatening to wear a Bellamy 500 or Brooks Brothers suit. My wife was going to wear a silk opera dress with Mink stole. Nobody seemed to be too bothered with the prospect.

The pastor always jokes about the Hawaiian shirts. He came out looking like Jack Benny in a skit the drama department put on. He was on a self help talk show run by a woman host who had her own agenda. The sketch comes to a comedic climax with this classic punch line:

Pastor: I really think you should study your Bible.

Ms. Talk Show Host: I really think you should study your wardrobe.
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Had friend in Columbus church 80's and 90s. Member left in 1993  Involved GC in Texas  2005-2007.  Empathy to both  with  positive and negative aspects.
Genevieve
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« Reply #114 on: March 21, 2007, 10:04:50 pm »

Where can I find the link to this sermon: “What in the World is the Rock Here For, Part 3″? I haven’t heard him speak in a long time. It will be interesting to listen to him with fresh ears.
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Linda
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« Reply #115 on: March 21, 2007, 10:05:03 pm »

http://resources.christianity.com/details/ecc/20060217/c53b0e81-1425-47c2-9d97-26d81cc92d6a.aspx
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Gretchen
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« Reply #116 on: March 21, 2007, 10:05:19 pm »

I apologize for being part of the problem of taking this thread away from the very important issue of older single women in the Church (another situation that is not handled well in evangelical churches in general, not just GCwhatever churches). But I loved a comment that was made earlier in this thread about how married women were encouraged to serve their families. I think there’s a very important insight for those of us whose lives revolve around domestic duties. We are serving just as every believer from the janitor to the CEO is serving, but in God’s economy, service isn’t equated with only menial tasks.



I still remember the day, early in my marriage, when I realized that the only person in the house who actually cared whether the kitchen floor was sticky was me, and that I was getting no domestic martyr points for mopping it! What I’m trying to say is that God didn’t ask me to serve my family as a mindless housekeeping drone. He called me to serve them by doing for them whatever they couldn’t do by themselves, which could include cooking and chauffering, but could also include training them in cleanliness and stewardship (which I’m not very good at), making the third in a card game or the pitcher in batting practice or a date for the ballet, helping them think through a college or career decision, or setting a limit so they would not be enslaved to their own impulses. That Proverbs 31 woman did get up before dawn to cook, but she also ran a business and a ministry.



Could this model of service carry over into the church as well? Could women make coffee, not because they’re women, but because they want coffee, and they think someone else might want it too, and then could they, without any loss of femininity, organize the whole refreshment schedule according to who can cook, not gender? Could they teach two year olds if they like two year olds and adults if they like adults, not in submission to some random man, but in submission to the church, as Eph. 5:22 says? Can not any act be an act of service or an act of selfish power-grubbing, depending on its motivation?
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nateswinton
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« Reply #117 on: March 21, 2007, 10:05:43 pm »

“Could this model of service carry over into the church as well? Could women make coffee, not because they’re women, but because they want coffee, and they think someone else might want it too, and then could they, without any loss of femininity, organize the whole refreshment schedule according to who can cook, not gender? Could they teach two year olds if they like two year olds and adults if they like adults, not in submission to some random man, but in submission to the church, as Eph. 5:22 says? Can not any act be an act of service or an act of selfish power-grubbing, depending on its motivation?”

Gretchen -

Thank you for this paragraph. I tend to be a feminist as far as GC* people go, and I can appreciate what you wrote. I have a wife that went to college and got a degree from a VERY good university in culinary arts. She smart, independant, efficient and hard working. And she works in a bakery. I always tell her “No, screw the stereotypes people want to put on you because you’re a ‘GCM Wife’! You do what you love.” Then we laugh, because she “submits” to that command from me, her husband Smiley She doesn’t do culinary arts cause she’s a women and that’s a feminine line of work, she does it because she loves it and she’s damn good.

My family got ex-communicated from an E-Free church because my mom was on staff with InterVarsity on Iowa State’s campus, and the E-Free pastor didn’t think women should have authority over men. He wouldn’t accept the fact that she never even taught, all she did was line up speakers and do administration work. She wouldn’t submit when the pastor told her to stop the work she was doing.

That’s one area of my past where I feel like my parents really did the right thing. They said “Well, you’ll have to kick us out then, I guess. We love this church, and we support InterVarsity. We’re not doing anything wrong here. Your move.”

My first GC* warning sign was actually about two years after I’d been around with the church, I was talking to an older man who was becoming like a mentor to me. I told him the whole story of what had happened with my mom and asked him what he thought. He told me gently that he agreed with the pastor’s decision to kick our family out. That was when he stopped mentoring me.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #118 on: March 21, 2007, 10:05:59 pm »

Wow, Nate, that’s crazy. Good for your parents.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #119 on: March 21, 2007, 10:06:42 pm »

Gretchen, I love it. That’s exactly how I feel about myself as stay at home mom and homeschooler. I love it. I take hedonistic pleasure in spending time with my kids. I also enjoy cooking and entertaining so for me those wouldn’t make me feel put upon UNTIL I am told I need to do it as a woman or some other such nonsense.

I just read a ridiculous (non-GCM) book and website that told women that they needed to get out of (I kid you not) homosexual friendships with other women. What was the nature of these homosexual, sick friendships. Oh you know those relationships where you have a close female friend and you share personal information with them. I had to laugh at that ridiculous idea that God and your husband are your everything. Kooky and weird and if anyone has read “Created to be His Helpmeet” by Debi Pearl… you’ll see exactly the kind of anti woman nonsense I am talking about.
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