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Author Topic: A New Question for ECC Supporters  (Read 27442 times)
araignee19
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« on: April 25, 2018, 08:19:50 pm »

I would like to ask a question to all ECC supporters who have posted to this site, but in particular a few very vocal "super supporters." I think you know who you are.

You have stated a number of times that your goal here is to defend Mark from the accusations of Suzanne. You have also said you are here for that purpose only, and will happily leave as soon as this situation wraps up. And finally, you have stated many variants of how wrong and slanderous and gossipy it is for people to discuss criticisms of GCx teachings on this forum. So with all that in mind: What percentage of your posts have been about topics such as theology, articles people posted, responses to criticisms of GCx, ad hominem attacks stating how bitter and awful those who post here are, or any other topic not directly tied to the Mark/Suzanne situation?

Based on what I've seen, it has been a lot. I don't understand why. If you wouldn't be here discussing these things after this situation, why are you willing to discuss them during? How do you justify posting on this site about anything other than the Mark/Suzanne situation? And how do you think what you are doing in arguing why we are wrong is any different than what we are doing arguing you are wrong? Why do you think we are "tearing the church apart," and you are not?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 09:31:51 pm by araignee19 » Logged
araignee19
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2018, 09:19:20 pm »

Since you didn't actually answer the question I'll try again:

How do you think what you are doing in arguing why we are wrong is any different than what we are doing arguing you are wrong? Why do you think we are "tearing the church apart," and you are not?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 09:23:39 pm by araignee19 » Logged
araignee19
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2018, 09:30:24 pm »

Ad hominem attack again. I have not spent over a decade doing this. And the length of time I have spent here shouldn't matter. If it is inherently wrong to post on this type of site, it is wrong for you to post once as much as for me to post many times. So let's try this again, and if you have no further answer, please feel free to remain quiet instead of making false statements about me to distract from the original question.

How do you think what you are doing in arguing why we are wrong is any different than what we are doing arguing you are wrong? Why do you think we are "tearing the church apart," and you are not?

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Greentruth
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2018, 04:51:47 am »

I will apologize for myself in that I to have let this form suck me in to debates that are unhealthy. It’s just when you see the Church, NOT just ECC, attacked you want to try and share truths. The fact is, you have much more traffic here with the Suzanne controversy. For this reason I, myself will continue to share the truths I know of Jesus, and His Church. I also recognize some here have been hurt, and hopefully with both sides being shared there could be a healing, or ability to let it go and give it to God. But when you call a spirit filled church with loving spirit filled people a cult, I will respond to that lie. You can come and go as you wish. Most measures I have seen from within the Church are healthy. Just as anywhere things can be taken wrong, and you have issues. Just don’t throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak. I will also leave this site when the posting and slams against the Church no longer have Suzanne controversy mixed in.
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araignee19
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2018, 06:19:47 am »

Greentruth,

As a follow up question: Do you think that is is ok to post to this site simply because you are responding to "a lie" that you think hurts the church and people? Because (almost) everyone on this site believes the same thing. So how else is what you are doing different than what we are doing, other than what we think the harmful lie is?
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araignee19
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2018, 06:30:05 am »

I did answer the question. You just don't like the answer.

Ok, fair, I missed that you had an answer in the midst of the personal attacks. And if I am reading correctly, you think what makes what I am doing and what you are doing different is the length of time we have spent doing it. So what is the cutoff for acceptable number of posts? Or an acceptable length of time? Is there any room for different timelines for those seeking personal help versus those seeking to help or warn others even after they themselves have healed? And where is the biblical justification for this logic that something like this would be bad only after a certain amount of indulgence?

I know you probably won't respond, but I did want to acknowledge I missed this. If anyone else has answers to the follow up questions I would be curious to hear them.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 07:15:10 am by araignee19 » Logged
Greentruth
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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2018, 07:40:46 am »

Greentruth,

As a follow up question: Do you think that is is ok to post to this site simply because you are responding to "a lie" that you think hurts the church and people? Because (almost) everyone on this site believes the same thing. So how else is what you are doing different than what we are doing, other than what we think the harmful lie is?
[/quote

From my prospective I post here because many of the accusations are unfounded at best, and many times fabricated to fit an agenda that is obvious to most who look here. Accusations go against what I saw and lived, and they can do immeasurable harm. Which it would seem much of the time is the goal. You have seen many post as much. For one thing,I see accusations come from churches I have never even heard of. The generalization and timing are all over the board, even with Suzanne accusations. Many claims from those on this form may be a reality to a degree for them, but NOT to the vast majority who live it TODAY. The assumptions, generalizations, and non Biblical claims help no one. All myself and a few others are pointing out, is the reality we have lived and see. Many come here to see what is being said, and I think it’s only fair that both sides can be seen. You don’t agree with me, and I don’t agree with you on much of what is said or in my mind ,the truth manipulated. People can look, and make their own decision. You say you are warning people on what you say you experienced, and I warn people from what I see as incorrect. You say you feel attacked? How do you think the scores of people who love thiis church and the people there. The stated purposes of warning people of what they are getting into is not correct. If I don’t see this, I won’t post.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2018, 07:47:59 am »

What do you believe isn’t true besides Suzanne’s and claims from Victim A and C? 

Do you really believe people are making things up?

You do understand that your lived experience might be different than someone else’s, correct?  Of course most stuff at GCx churches looks pretty normal.  No one is saying it isn’t.

People are in here with serious issues that have happened recently.  Not just years and years ago.  They’re actually scared to talk about it.  You don’t find that strange?

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araignee19
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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2018, 07:51:20 am »

Greentruth,
That all sounds fine to me. I actually don't see anything wrong with ECC supporters defending their churches or beliefs here. I'm glad when people bring a mature and well articulated alternative perspective. But I have repeatedly been told that it is wrong to post here. I have seen people atracked and called bitter for posting here. It has repeatedly been called gossip and slander when we post here.

So I ask again, why is what I'm doing any different than what you are doing? If you don't see a difference, feel free to say that and let others answer for themselves. This question may not be directed towards you if you can acknowledge we are both fighting for what we believe, and doing the exact same thing, and that there is nothing inherently wrong with that.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 07:55:03 am by araignee19 » Logged
araignee19
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2018, 07:52:10 am »

Agatha, you are taking the thread hijacking bait...
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Greentruth
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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2018, 08:07:39 am »

Greentruth,
That all sounds fine to me. I actually don't see anything wrong with ECC supporters defending their churches or beliefs here. I'm glad when people bring a mature and well articulated alternative perspective. But I have repeatedly been told that it is wrong to post here. I have seen people atracked and called bitter for posting here. It has repeatedly been called gossip and slander when we post here.

So I ask again, why is what I'm doing any different than what you are doing? If you don't see a difference, feel free to say that and let others answer for themselves. This question may not be directed towards you if you can acknowledge we are both fighting for what we believe, and doing the exact same thing, and that there is nothing inherently wrong with that.

I agree with you, as most of my interaction with you is more civil, and just stating from your experince, which I don’t deny you where hurt. But most others can get pretty personal on the attacks. You and I can agree to disagree, but not so much on others. I do pray for healing for you, and a vibrant loving relationship with our joy filled savior, Jesus.
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Rypick
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« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2018, 05:40:01 am »

The difference is defense versus offense. This forum is attacking our churches. That’s offense. Those of us attempting to defend our churches are on defense. There is a huge difference. It is kind of like saying, “I took my gun next door, walked into my neighbor’s house and shot at him. Then he pulled his gun, and shot back. So, why am I the only one being arrested? We both shot our guns!”

I’m sure the counter-argument will be that the forum is on defense because you guys are trying to defend the tired, the poor, the huddled masses from the GCx juggernaut of evil…but you asked how we see the situation, and justify posting, so that’s our perspective.

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Greentruth
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« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2018, 06:00:09 am »

The difference is defense versus offense. This forum is attacking our churches. That’s offense. Those of us attempting to defend our churches are on defense. There is a huge difference. It is kind of like saying, “I took my gun next door, walked into my neighbor’s house and shot at him. Then he pulled his gun, and shot back. So, why am I the only one being arrested? We both shot our guns!”

I’m sure the counter-argument will be that the forum is on defense because you guys are trying to defend the tired, the poor, the huddled masses from the GCx juggernaut of evil…but you asked how we see the situation, and justify posting, so that’s our perspective.



I agree with that assessment, as I really pray a day comes in the near future when the heart breaking defense is no longer necessary. I started posting hear mainly to defend what I think is obviously an innocent man,MD, and the ECC Church that has been under attack. But when you read some of the posts about other issues it draws me in, because it is so NOT what I experienced at ECC. From what I have seen is that the vast majority have not been effected to the extent of some here. When off topic articles and some scientific study tells them we are brain washed because we love the people and the Church. I take joy in being sold out for Jesus. The harshness of this form and the world no longer bothers me. I will try and speak love, but when darkness invades our light, we need to make the light brighter. Sadly sometimes pushing back on the darkness can seem harsh.
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araignee19
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« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2018, 06:38:18 am »

The difference is defense versus offense. This forum is attacking our churches. That’s offense. Those of us attempting to defend our churches are on defense. There is a huge difference. It is kind of like saying, “I took my gun next door, walked into my neighbor’s house and shot at him. Then he pulled his gun, and shot back. So, why am I the only one being arrested? We both shot our guns!”

I’m sure the counter-argument will be that the forum is on defense because you guys are trying to defend the tired, the poor, the huddled masses from the GCx juggernaut of evil…but you asked how we see the situation, and justify posting, so that’s our perspective.


Thank you for your honest response. I see your perspective, although I disagree with it a portion of it. You are correct on my counter-argument in a lot of ways.

I would like to spin it around a bit and ask you to defend the underlying basis of your argument. How is what we are doing here (outside of any Mark and Suzanne discussion, which is outside the scope of this question) an offensive move that needs to be defended from?

We have simply joined an obscure website, shared our personal stories, shared public documents, share public teachings, and shared our thoughts on those things. We are not pounding on the doors of your church buildings or sending Facebook messages to any members we can find. We have not picketed outside your events. We have simply made the information available if anyone chooses to seek it out.

I do see this as a defensive move against what I see as a deliberate obscuring of certain information and perspectives within the movement. Would you please  explain what about this website is an offensive attack in your our mind?
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Linda
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« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2018, 07:23:09 am »

Quote from: Rypick
The difference is defense versus offense.

I actually understand this to some extent. (Personally, I think you should have your own "defense" forum to do that. "GCC is a great association of churches" and have it be for people who think GCC is great and want to say why. I think it is rude to do that here, but, that said, you have been welcomed here.)

During our meeting with Mark Darling, he actually said, "If you go around telling people you think we are wrong, we are going to have to defend ourselves." It felt sort of threatening, but we took it to mean, "If you tell people our theology is wrong, we will tell people why we don't think it is." That is not only reasonable, that would be expected. A pastor should be able to defend his theological positions.

Setting aside the purpose of this forum and the fact that it is for people who have had bad experiences at a GCC church, you are allowed to post here.

I think what is unhelpful to your cause is when you "defend" the theology of your church through ad hominem attacks rather than reasoning. In other words, when the debate/defense is not over ideas, it's not really a defense.

Calling people bitter, proud, tools of Satan, fools, can sway some, I agree, but it doesn't move the discussion forward in helpful ways.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 07:52:41 am by Linda » Logged

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Greentruth
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« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2018, 08:06:41 am »

It would be one thing if people here just shared their experience and let it go at that. But it goes way beyond that many times, with personal defamation of certain people, and even the congregation as a whole, because in context we don’t agree to the level some want us to.

Besides that a lot has changed as far as who and how many come here to absorb anything and everything that can be typed from a hidden keyboard. In normal church life for most of us, if we have an issue we try and resolve it with love and compassion. And in very rare cases some move on. NOT every Church fits everyone’s needs or views. Some take every word literally. and at times out of context. By the time some out of context statement goes through a half dozen regular form members, it gets to be an absolute falsity. As some of you have said, this form received very little traffic before Suzanne’s accusations came here. It seemed some of you don’t like the added traffic and disagreements. It might be good for those who live on this form to not bring such device issues here.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2018, 09:45:54 am »

We could name names if we wanted to,  but we don’t.  Not really sure what you’re talking about.  Are you suggesting discussions over sermons or someone’s account of meeting with clergy is gossip?  


Cause that’s just weird, my friend.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 10:11:53 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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araignee19
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« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2018, 10:21:08 am »

Hey, Isthisreal, since you aren't gone like you said you would be, would you mind answering the followup questions I posted instead of continuing to use ad hominem attacks again? Kinda curious your thoughts.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2018, 11:16:00 am »

Names of clergy and leaders or just regular old attendees?  Again, discussing pastors and teaching and sermons is in my mind a completely regular thing to do and has been since the New Testament was written.


You see people here are discussing leaders.  YOU are discussing attendees and former attendees.  That’s the big difference I see between this site and GCx involvement in it.  Further if any of you are current leaders here, what you are doing is really bad and you should stop.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 11:18:09 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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G_Prince
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« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2018, 12:03:25 pm »

Don't have time to dig thru thousands of posts for more than a decade starting at Wordpress and provide you with a list of names. Sorry.

Typical GCx drive-by. Don't read anything, just assume and judge.
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Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
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