Apology read in Urban Refuge Service on Sunday

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[DarthVader]

An apology was read by Andy in the Urban Refuge service on Sunday and I would assume the other locations as well, but have not listened to their messages.  It begins around the 30 minute mark of Andy's sermon if you just want to listen to the official apology portion, but the whole sermon, actually the whole series "Level Ground" has, I think, been thoughtful, and I would encourage you to listen to all of it.I  am not sure how the apology would/will be delivered to the victims, but the apology did reference that a reconciliation process that would be offered.



http://subspla.sh/z379r6d

[Linda]

Hmmmm.

Working my way through this, but I have to say that in the back of my mind is the fact that some ECC pastors, KNOWING FULL WELL that they had KNOWN about the accusations, AGREED they were severe enough to require correction and counseling, AGREED to do something, then went back on their word and did NOTHING.

THEN, THEY ALLOWED THE WOMEN TO SUFFER FOR MINIMALLY 18 YEARS BECAUSE OF THEIR INACTION.

Then, when Suzanne had the courage to bring it out in a manner in which it would finally be addressed, these same pastors allowed their church to spend thousands of dollars on an "investigation" when they knew full well that they had dropped the ball regarding her and "at least two others". This resulted in the victims having to hire attorneys to defend themselves because the shepherds did not protect the sheep, they protected each other.

Then, they preached sermons likening the women to Shimei throwing rocks at God's anointed and calling it unfair and unjust. They criticized her for her method of being heard when their lack of due diligence regarding the action they said they would take when she tried to go through them in the first place, but learned they couldn't be trusted.

Then there's  all the years of counseling women went through to process all of this.

And now they say they are sorry in a non-specific group apology to people who were "affected negatively and offended".

That's it?!

Evergreen, you can do better.

[Wrestling]

Oh my.

Evergreen pastors, if you are reading this:

I plead with you as a sister in Christ to PLEASE seek help. I think you are trying as best you know to handle this situation, but you need wise counsel from a trusted source outside your church. You claim you desire to humble yourselves. So don’t just say it. DO IT. Don’t apologize as a group to a group. Each of you who have sinned, CONTACT THE WOMEN YOU HAVE SINNED AGAINST AND APOLOGIZE. This forum doesn’t even need to know. I bet we’d still wonder or doubt that it happened, but at least YOU would know: I apologized, I have made this right in my heart. Then you can ignore us (and i’ll Work on trusting you more)

Jesus, please bring justice and humility! Please bring it to me! Please bring it to them! To us! Soon!

[Rebel in a Good Way]

I agree.  I know some have said "you will never be happy."  That's not true, I just think this is inadequate. 

Some have said it's a good start, good first step.  I will wait to see what the next steps are.  I guess I don't understand an apology coming in a form letter.  Appropriate at some point for the church to release an apology, not quite sure that is the most appropriate for victims. 

Seeing how Jesus identified with the least of these, washed feet, stood with the vulnerable, I don't see how this is loving victims like Jesus would.

Hmmmm.

Working my way through this, but I have to say that in the back of my mind is the fact that some ECC pastors, KNOWING FULL WELL that they had KNOWN about the accusations, AGREED they were severe enough to require correction and counseling, AGREED to do something, then went back on their word and did NOTHING.

THEN, THEY ALLOWED THE WOMEN TO SUFFER FOR MINIMALLY 18 YEARS BECAUSE OF THEIR INACTION.

Then, when Suzanne had the courage to bring it out in a manner in which it would finally be addressed, these same pastors allowed their church to spend thousands of dollars on an "investigation" when they knew full well that they had dropped the ball regarding her and "at least two others". This resulted in the victims having to hire attorneys to defend themselves because the shepherds did not protect the sheep, they protected each other.

Then, they preached sermons likening the women to Shimei throwing rocks at God's anointed and calling it unfair and unjust. They criticized her for her method of being heard when their lack of due diligence regarding the action they said they would take when she tried to go through them in the first place, but learned they couldn't be trusted.

Then there's  all the years of counseling women went through to process all of this.

And now they say they are sorry in a non-specific group apology to people who were "affected negatively and offended".

That's it?!

Evergreen, you can do better.

[Linda]

Who apologized?

Who did they apologize to?

What were the offenses?

How are they going to make amends to those hurt?

Why a public apology?

Did they personally take responsibility for each offense for every victim?

Did they acknowledge each sin?

Do they believe they sinned or just “made a mistake”?

[OneOfMany]

I said the apology was a good first step. However it has troubled me.

Where is the person confession off and recognition of a failure of moral character? It is all about policies. We regret the lack of this policy or that policy and we will put procedures into place. Not an admission of character flaws that lead to bullying church members and covering up serious sin. Because the letter says they will make change it is a good first step. However those who covered up for Mark Darling still do not show remorse or repentance.

[Mapleleaf]

Like many I believe it is a good first step.  My problem is I'm not sure whether to the church it is a good first step, or an attempt and a final step before we can move on and put this all behind us?  On some levels, I'm hearing some church leaders with some level remorse for the victims and what happened, and to them it seems like they are taking small steps in the right direction.  But for the majority of the leaders, it's more of "We pray to God to see us through this difficult time, so we can return our church to what it was before".    To those, any form of apology seems more like the minimum that we can do to move on, the path of least resistance to attempt to unite people without dealing with the real issues.  It has many signs of when I make my 8 year old apologize to someone for something they did.  The heart really isn't in it, and if pressed, I'm not sure they could fully identify what they're apologizing for.  Also the apology was "signed" by three specific pastors, but I haven't heard any of them speak anything to the tune of remorse or apology, so it seemed more like a letter that was penned by others, but agreed to be signed by the three that were most involved in the cover up.

[OneOfMany]

Like many I believe it is a good first step.  My problem is I'm not sure whether to the church it is a good first step, or an attempt and a final step before we can move on and put this all behind us?  On some levels, I'm hearing some church leaders with some level remorse for the victims and what happened, and to them it seems like they are taking small steps in the right direction.  But for the majority of the leaders, it's more of "We pray to God to see us through this difficult time, so we can return our church to what it was before".    To those, any form of apology seems more like the minimum that we can do to move on, the path of least resistance to attempt to unite people without dealing with the real issues.  It has many signs of when I make my 8 year old apologize to someone for something they did.  The heart really isn't in it, and if pressed, I'm not sure they could fully identify what they're apologizing for.  Also the apology was "signed" by three specific pastors, but I haven't heard any of them speak anything to the tune of remorse or apology, so it seemed more like a letter that was penned by others, but agreed to be signed by the three that were most involved in the cover up.

Yes!! That is it! Something was off about the letter. It mentioned the three pastor's in the third person yet was signed by them.

I am wondering if the three are capable of repentance in this matter. To repent requires someone to cognitively grasp the core problem. In this case there are character deficits that lead to the pastor's bullying church members and covering up sin. Repentance needs to come from gaining an understanding of their character problems. The behaviors are the signs pointing to the problem. Policies can help prevent unethical behaviors but cannot change the person.

Stepping down for a year, (if not permanently) and seeking counseling in an effort to understand the character deficits might save these pastor's from themselves. Maybe all of the pastor's need counseling concerning their core beliefs. To be a pastor one had to agree with Darling and Bowen as well as those who came before them.

[Heidi]

As a former member of Evergreen and a sibling to John van Dyck,  I am greatly troubled by the apology.  I received an email along with my other family members last Friday.   The email is not even close to repentance or humility.  It ripped open the wound again.

Statement # 3 in the apology is the most troubling to me.   
3." The concerns raised by John and Suzanne van Dyck in 2001, that were communicated to Mark Bowen, Brent Know, and Doug Patterson should have been shared with the Evergreen Board of Trustees, and counseling should have been required for Mark Darling."
 Had they stopped at that point it would have been easier to accept.  They continued in the paragraph to state...."If the BOT had been informed, then legal counsel could have been sought, and an impartial 3rd party could have been retained to review and advise Evergreen leadership on the entire process........"

This is a church correct?  Why would they have to consult with LEGAL counsel?  How about the other pastors at Evergreen, or the national board of pastors?  What was the spirit saying to the Pastors?  Were they obedient to the Holy Spirit?  I would say NO.

Are the elders not wise enough or discerning enough to have listened to John and Suzanne, and make Mark Darling, follow through on the counseling that he was advised to get and that Mark Darling himself communicated to John and Suzanne that he would get.  Mark Bowen also communicated to my husband and I, that Mark Darling would be getting counseling.  Mark Darling was advised to get counseling by Suzanne's counselor.  A Professional, certified Christian counselor that saw some definite issues and concerns in Mark's life.  A professional who had more credibility than a lawyer, in advising pastors.  But, they did not listen.  18 years later they are apologizing for that.

The Professional Christian Counselor who has training and Biblical Wisdom should have been listened to.  Why would legal advice be needed in a Christian Church that prides themselves on " raising up Pastors from within."  Is this a church, or a business?
GCM and Evergreen churches boost about the "authenticity" the pastors have with each other, the "accountability" they have with each other.  The reason there is suppose to be a true plurality of leaders is to prevent this kind of situation from happening.  Had the leadership really held each other to account, been authentic and open with each other, I would like to believe that the elders( Pastors) would have been lead by the Spirit to reprove Mark in love, and help him get the right kind of help. IN 2001!!!!!

Are the Board of Trustees really the ones,Biblically, that should be leading the church? 
I never knew I had been a part of a church that was Board led.  I always thought Evergreen was a Pastor led church.  Maybe part of the problem is that members do not have a voice or a vote. 
The Pastors are raised up and recognized as Pastors, because they are suppose to be men of Character that are suppose to be well Qualified to be Pastors.
I believe this sad situation shows that Evergreen has not been led well.  I would hope to see the other current pastors step up and demand more answers.   The tithing members also have a voice with their tithe, and their mouths.  True Repentance is still needed.  It is not enough for them to say "we are deeply sorry and sincerely apologize."  My response to that is- then especially Brent Knox, and Mark Bowen, step down for a season, get some help and healing for your selves. You have not led well.  Your humble actions of stepping down and getting professional help will show true repentance.

I love Jesus, I love truth.  The sin has not been dealt with.  I love the Pastors, and the church. I hate the sin of what they have done.  It has hurt the church deeply. 

[Orange Popsicle]

This is a church correct?  Why would they have to consult with LEGAL counsel?  How about the other pastors at Evergreen, or the national board of pastors?  What was the spirit saying to the Pastors?  Were they obedient to the Holy Spirit?  I would say NO.

Are the elders not wise enough or discerning enough to have listened to John and Suzanne, and make Mark Darling, follow through on the counseling that he was advised to get and that Mark Darling himself communicated to John and Suzanne that he would get.  Mark Bowen also communicated to my husband and I, that Mark Darling would be getting counseling.  Mark Darling was advised to get counseling by Suzanne's counselor.  A Professional, certified Christian counselor that saw some definite issues and concerns in Mark's life.  A professional who had more credibility than a lawyer, in advising pastors.  But, they did not listen.  18 years later they are apologizing for that.


Are the Board of Trustees really the ones,Biblically, that should be leading the church? 
I never knew I had been a part of a church that was Board led.  I always thought Evergreen was a Pastor led church.  Maybe part of the problem is that members do not have a voice or a vote. 
The Pastors are raised up and recognized as Pastors, because they are suppose to be men of Character that are suppose to be well Qualified to be Pastors.

Heidi, you raise good points.  The upside of "raising up pastors from within" is that indeed you get to know the person and see their character over a long period of time.  This is indeed valuable.  As a former long-time Rock attender, I will attest to the character of Karl, Ryan, and now Lucas.  They are good men who love Jesus, and have served sacrificially.  I am sure this can be said of many of the other "raised up" pastors in greater Evergreen and GCM.

Unfortunately, I believe the downsides of "raising up pastors from within" are greater than the upside.  Chief among them are severe spiritual inbreeding and lack of training in areas such as psychology, counseling, conflict resolution/mediation and organizational leadership.  

It has been said from The Rock pulpit that counseling outside the church is a waste of money, and that anti-anxiety medication is over-prescribed; essentially the idea that "just read the Bible more and talk to a pastor and everything will be fine".  Homeschool your kids (no matter the personal cost) or Satan is going to "get your kids".  The Bible was never intended to be the only source of wisdom and knowledge for humanity, and any one person's interpretation of the Bible is dangerous (see above statements).  Certainly human wisdom that is in conflict with a correct interpretation of the Bible must not be accepted over what the Bible says, and the Bible no doubt contains much wisdom, but the primary purpose of the Bible is to direct us into personal fellowship with God - with no mediator other than Christ (1 Tim 2:5).  God gave humanity wisdom and learning in other areas.

I suspect Mark Bowen and Brent are starting to realize this and perhaps are starting to see how serious some of the holes are, but this will be a gradual awakening.  It requires significant humility to accept that you don't have all the answers.  Seminary isn't a perfect place and indeed there are seminary graduates who are on the wrong end of 1 Cor 8:1 "Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up", but a quality seminary education will prepare a person for pastoral leadership much more completely than the training most GCM pastors have gotten.

I want to be clear that I am for Ryan, Karl, and Lucas.  They are the best people to lead The Rock at this time and I sincerely believe they are pouring their whole hearts into this.  I pray for grace and unity from the congregation as these men are laboring at a difficult task.  I do hope that over time they can get the training that they need that has been missing from the GCLI program, and that they and the rest of Evergreen take the time to cross-pollinate with other Bible-believing spiritual leaders.  This will go a long way to reigning in some of the goofy ideas and theology.

[Rebel in a Good Way]

Orange Popsicle, thanks for your insights that I happen to agree with 

When you stand by the current leaders of The Rock, I am curious if you believe they also see those problems, if they are fully on board with the fact that Mark Darling abused women, and if they see the need for change?  To me that's different than only being men of good character, which of course is important, but if they remain blind, good character isn't enough.  When it comes to systemic problems, some can "see" it and others just can't--you know, the whole fish doesn't know what water is analogy.  Anyway, wondering what your sense is of their awareness of the problems?

Heidi, you raise good points.  The upside of "raising up pastors from within" is that indeed you get to know the person and see their character over a long period of time.  This is indeed valuable.  As a former long-time Rock attender, I will attest to the character of Karl, Ryan, and now Lucas.  They are good men who love Jesus, and have served sacrificially.  I am sure this can be said of many of the other "raised up" pastors in greater Evergreen and GCM.

Unfortunately, I believe the downsides of "raising up pastors from within" are greater than the upside.  Chief among them are severe spiritual inbreeding and lack of training in areas such as psychology, counseling, conflict resolution/mediation and organizational leadership. 

It has been said from The Rock pulpit that counseling outside the church is a waste of money, and that anti-anxiety medication is over-prescribed; essentially the idea that "just read the Bible more and talk to a pastor and everything will be fine".  Homeschool your kids (no matter the personal cost) or Satan is going to "get your kids".  The Bible was never intended to be the only source of wisdom and knowledge for humanity, and any one person's interpretation of the Bible is dangerous (see above statements).  Certainly human wisdom that is in conflict with a correct interpretation of the Bible must not be accepted over what the Bible says, and the Bible no doubt contains much wisdom, but the primary purpose of the Bible is to direct us into personal fellowship with God - with no mediator other than Christ (1 Tim 2:5).  God gave humanity wisdom and learning in other areas.

I suspect Mark Bowen and Brent are starting to realize this and perhaps are starting to see how serious some of the holes are, but this will be a gradual awakening.  It requires significant humility to accept that you don't have all the answers.  Seminary isn't a perfect place and indeed there are seminary graduates who are on the wrong end of 1 Cor 8:1 "Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up", but a quality seminary education will prepare a person for pastoral leadership much more completely than the training most GCM pastors have gotten.

I want to be clear that I am for Ryan, Karl, and Lucas.  They are the best people to lead The Rock at this time and I sincerely believe they are pouring their whole hearts into this.  I pray for grace and unity from the congregation as these men are laboring at a difficult task.  I do hope that over time they can get the training that they need that has been missing from the GCLI program, and that they and the rest of Evergreen take the time to cross-pollinate with other Bible-believing spiritual leaders.  This will go a long way to reigning in some of the goofy ideas and theology.

[Cult Proof]

A narcissist will apologize for what they get caught in, the apology serves them the purpose of hopefully not losing control over people. If these leaders are truly broken and repenting in humility to God we will see them speak out courageously about how they have abused other beyond Susanne. They will speak out about many different ways they have abused many different groups of people. They will step down because processing the depth of the harm they have down will be overwhelming. They will be overwhelmed by the level of repentance and desire to process will become a full time job. They will recognize their own need to get out from under mind control. I know this is true because when my own soul recognized what I had even silently participated in by going along with abusive leaders my soul could not rest until I had broken myself before the people I had harmed. And the people I thought I had harmed consistently told me the three families that had hurt them the most, my husband and I were not among them. I can’t fathom the brokenness people would feel if the realize how they had been manipulated into abusing us or if they realize the horrendous abuse they inflicted on good people, kind and tender hearted people. Can we please recognize that damage control is not the same as repentance not is an apology.

[Orange Popsicle]

Orange Popsicle, thanks for your insights that I happen to agree with 

Are you thankful for my insights that you may not happen to agree with?   

When you stand by the current leaders of The Rock, I am curious if you believe they also see those problems, if they are fully on board with the fact that Mark Darling abused women, and if they see the need for change?  To me that's different than only being men of good character, which of course is important, but if they remain blind, good character isn't enough.  When it comes to systemic problems, some can "see" it and others just can't--you know, the whole fish doesn't know what water is analogy.  Anyway, wondering what your sense is of their awareness of the problems?

I left The Rock prior to this situation, so my perspective is based only on my personal experience prior to leaving and public information.  I have not spoken to any of the remaining pastors about their perspectives.  As I wrote previously, it is my belief that these accusations were shocking to the general Rock congregation, as the alleged abuse happened a decade before The Rock was launched, and the events of 2001-2003 were never mentioned in any way.  I presume that Ryan, Karl, and Lucas were equally surprised, and probably initially sided with Mark based on a long relationship and no allegations during the time that they knew Mark. I know that's how I'd feel if I were in their shoes. 

Based on observing the fact that they are remaining at The Rock as pastors and their participation in the Apology, I presume (please note the continued presumption going on here - I am not claiming to speak for them or know their thoughts) they were satisfied enough with the evidence presented to them to believe Mark is at least partially guilty.  I'm not sure what you mean by "if they see the need for change".  I'm not aware of any suggestion that Lucas, Karl, or Ryan were involved in this issue or any other abuse situation personally, so while I'm sure they would support policy changes as good practice, I don't know that they would feel a sense of personal guilt.

I don't know to what degree they see issues with other (IMO) Rock/GCM doctrinal problems - the supremacy of homeschooling, complementarianism, the level of pastoral influence demanded, etc.  All three were close to Mark and his ideas. Perspective shifts take time and happen gradually.  This is why I am hoping that they will seek the perspectives of godly people from other organizations to challenge what The Rock has taught for the last 19 years.

[Rebel in a Good Way]

Yes, they mention godly sorrow in their apology but I have not seen it from them.  I think those of us who have experienced it in other settings or have participated in it ourselves recognize it when it's real.

A narcissist will apologize for what they get caught in, the apology serves them the purpose of hopefully not losing control over people. If these leaders are truly broken and repenting in humility to God we will see them speak out courageously about how they have abused other beyond Susanne. They will speak out about many different ways they have abused many different groups of people. They will step down because processing the depth of the harm they have down will be overwhelming. They will be overwhelmed by the level of repentance and desire to process will become a full time job. They will recognize their own need to get out from under mind control. I know this is true because when my own soul recognized what I had even silently participated in by going along with abusive leaders my soul could not rest until I had broken myself before the people I had harmed. And the people I thought I had harmed consistently told me the three families that had hurt them the most, my husband and I were not among them. I can’t fathom the brokenness people would feel if the realize how they had been manipulated into abusing us or if they realize the horrendous abuse they inflicted on good people, kind and tender hearted people. Can we please recognize that damage control is not the same as repentance not is an apology.

[Rebel in a Good Way]

Yes, my tongue-in-cheek comments might not translate in writing, but I did recognize the irony of my statement!  So far I don't think I've disagreed with you on this forum so we'll have to see what happens when that fateful day comes.   

Thanks for your thoughts on the remaining Rock pastors.  I've been in a situation before where pastors stayed after abuse was exposed, but they never really fully believed it or weren't totally on board with the restorative process, and it didn't go well.  That's why I ask.  Some pastors may want to stay in their ministry and know they can't publicly deny what the BOT found (including the inadequate oversight/accountability process), but if they don't really accept it they will undermine meaningful change. 

Orange Popsicle, thanks for your insights that I happen to agree with 

Are you thankful for my insights that you may not happen to agree with?   

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