ECC BOT - What Can Be Done?

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[ShineTheLight]

Hey all,

Well, we've successfully brought some transparency to the process - 80% of the non-staff BOT is now correct identified. I would still greatly appreciate anyone who chooses to share the identity of the Lakeville BOT member - she is the ONLY member appointed AFTER the allegations were made public, so who Mark Bowen chose to vote in his place might be of interest given we've already identified significant conflicts of interest on the board (The Rock, whose BOT member leads a house church along side Mark's daughter and son-in-law..but has somehow "sequestered himself from them" - except he leads a ministry with them??).

The relevant question that was asked was what would you do with the information.  Here are my thoughts - act on them or not as you see fit.  I believe no harm would come from what I am proposing below. At worst, the reasons ECC gives for declining to act on my suggestion below would be very revealing to you.

1. Todd is conflicted - it is impossible for me to imagine that he will vote to discipline Mark (assuming the evidence justifies it) then go back to happily serving along side Mark's daughter and son-in-law.  The fact that he knows he is conflicted and has thus far refused to step away from this process could mean that he is determined to be an advocate for Mark.  All it would take is 3 other people (e.g., the still secret Lakeville member and 2 staff members, hypothetically) to cause a potential miscarriage of justice.

2. The fact that ECC was keeping the BOT's identify secret to hide just this kind of conflict of interest from the Church should give us ALL pause; although I generally respect Jim and Lynn they have been chief architects of this secrecy.

This is what I would recommend. It only has impact if many voices feel the same, but each much do as they are called/led by the spirit. If you have a good Christian friend who is not a part of the ECC system, maybe seek their input as well:

I believe everyone who feels convicted should write to Lynn Newman and Jim Bird - they are on staff - they are paid to deal with these issues - you are not "harassing" them to share your point of view provided it is done respectfully and once. I believe you should ask that the BOT vote on recusing the Rock from the investigation decision making process.  A simple request.  As this would leave the BOT with an even number for the vote on what to do with the results of the investigation, you could also ask that a non-ECC person (e.g., respected local Christian leader, ideally female) be asked to serve on the BOT in place of the Rock's member to provide an outside voice, but at the very least, the BOT could vote on recusing The Rock.  This is not hard or complicated.  This could be done.  We do not have to sit back and watch injustice occur without acting. Time of crisis require both prayer AND courage and sometimes action.  Again, what is the harm in what I am asking?  Also, watch the reaction of the MD/ECC defenders to this request on this site.  It may also be very revealing.

[Watching]

Thank you, STL, for all the thought you have put into how this can be handled in a fair and balanced manner.  I do believe that most on this forum are simply wanting an honest resolution.  The more that things are hidden and the more potential conflicts of interest discovered, the less trustworthy the process appears.  Which doesn't do either 'side' justice.  I will prayerfully consider your suggestions.  I continue to be a tithing, serving member of ECC and this whole mess has caused me concern.  I want to have faith that those in leadership positions are above reproach.  So far, what I'm learning, is not helping.  Thanks again!

[ShineTheLight]

Thanks Watching - I truly believe most are trying to do the best they can, but its easy when you don't listen to other voices who challenge your own perspective to go down the wrong path.  This is what I think happened with the (bad) decision to keep the BOT secret during a time of crisis.  This is what I think is happening by no one helping Todd see the whole process would be better if he stepped back. This is what I think is happening by ECC not seeking an outside point of view on what to do with the results of the investigation, even just as a sounding board. I'd love to see our church learn from this and get better.

[araignee19]

Thanks for your efforts here. I think this sounds like a very reasonable first step. The replacement to Todd would have to be outside GCx though. No direct ties.

I think doing this same thing for Mark Bowen's appointee would also be wise.

If ECC did this, it would certainly increase my trust of the process quite a bit. I think it would be better for everyone involved too, including Mark.

[ShineTheLight]

Thanks Araignee..I think the best we can hope for (and I don't have much hope) is that Todd would recuse himself or be asked to w/no replacement.  But my expectation is nothing will actually change and ECC will continue on their current course.  The names of 4 of 5 non-staff BOT members (or 6 of the 7 total) is now essentially public but is still "officially" secret.  I'm not clear that they would even acknowledge Todd is on the BOT if asked, even now. But "Rypick" and DLM pretty much confirmed it.

[Rebel in a Good Way]

ECC BOT could all recuse themselves from making a recommendation and allow Joan Harris to determine the next steps.  Or another church that has abuse protocol in place.

I have considered if a victim advocate or a party outside of ECC could hire an attorney to conduct their own investigation if ECC doesn't reveal what people have shared.  Like, if the people who shared the NDA's and other documentation, and the 5+ women who went to Joan realize that the BOT doesn't reveal the truth, they could easily share that same information again with another investigator, who isn't beholden to ECC.   That investigator could write a report that would be shared transparently. 

Or, the individuals who shared privately could just choose to make that information public on their own terms.

 

[ShineTheLight]

I  don't think ECC is going to recuse themselves (nice idea though!).  I would love to see Suzanne and the other victims share their full stories (to the extent they feel comfortable) in a report (perhaps prepared using a lawyer hired with the support fund) and have them release it BEFORE the investigation is done.  That would give those who attend ECC something to compare the results the BOT is disclosing to what the victims are sharing. But this is all about the victims and none of them should do anything they don't want to - at all.

[Heidi]

I also have Questions or concerns regarding the other Pastors involvement in this process.  Biblically it seems that the Pastors also should all see the results of the investigation.  The talk seems to be that only the Pastor appointed board members will see the results.  To be consistent with GCM teaching on church authority.  The Pastors are the ones who will give an account for the way they Shepard the church.  Biblically I do not see this as the role of a board, but the role of all the paid Pastors.   Praying for truth and transparency.

[Rypick]

Thanks Araignee..I think the best we can hope for (and I don't have much hope) is that Todd would recuse himself or be asked to w/no replacement.  But my expectation is nothing will actually change and ECC will continue on their current course.  The names of 4 of 5 non-staff BOT members (or 6 of the 7 total) is now essentially public but is still "officially" secret.  I'm not clear that they would even acknowledge Todd is on the BOT if asked, even now. But "Rypick" and DLM pretty much confirmed it.

Ha! Just to be clear, I have no idea if Todd is on the BOT. I was taking your word for it. 
I can confirm that Todd attends the Rock, which I suppose would make him eligible.

By the way, why did I get quotes?

[ShineTheLight]

I guess because your screen name is a version of your name, whereas DLM is just DLM..I didn't put that much thought into it..

[Greentruth]

So to date I have seen names exposed who are supposedly on the bot, something I take with a grain of salt here. Then we see them dissected and spun in the attempt to manipulate them. Now I see someone thinks turning it over to another Church to judge? Have to wonder which Church would get involved with this forums request.  And even a suggestion to have people who gave testimony to Joan give everyone a prelude determination of what should be shared. I’m beginning to think even Suzanne supporters are questioning what the results could be. And from what has been shared by Suzanne supporters is that there is physical evidence in all this. If so, it would seem absurd to be making all these manipulative recommendations. To even suggest that the bot would withhold evidence given them by Joan is just more manipulation aimed directly at the good people of ECC. This is how much credit they give Spirit filled people seeking the truth. And just the norm at the forum

[Greentruth]

Rebel, I would be interested in which Church you are suggesting, and the names of pastors and anyone that would be involved. From all the posts here this would be the only fair thing for all to see.

[ShineTheLight]

So to date I have seen names exposed who are supposedly on the bot, something I take with a grain of salt here. Then we see them dissected and spun in the attempt to manipulate them. Now I see someone thinks turning it over to another Church to judge? Have to wonder which Church would get involved with this forums request.  And even a suggestion to have people who gave testimony to Joan give everyone a prelude determination of what should be shared. I’m beginning to think even Suzanne supporters are questioning what the results could be. And from what has been shared by Suzanne supporters is that there is physical evidence in all this. If so, it would seem absurd to be making all these manipulative recommendations. To even suggest that the bot would withhold evidence given them by Joan is just more manipulation aimed directly at the good people of ECC. This is how much credit they give Spirit filled people seeking the truth. And just the norm at the forum

GT - I'm not judging if the people running ECC are good or bad, I'm just evaluating their actions, some of which have been "good" and some of which have been "bad" (in my opinion, but everyone is free to make their own call and act according)

-Good - Hiring Joan - she seems to have a good background
-Good - Placing Mark on leave while this is going on (whether guilty or innocent)
-Bad - keeping the BOT secret in a time of crisis
-Bad - Allowing someone who runs a ministry side by side with Mark's daughter and son-in-law to vote on Mark's innocence or guilt and hiding that fact, telling the victim the BOT is "sequestered"
-Bad - A tweet that was basically a smear of the victim
-Bad having the Chairman of the Board recuse himself but appoint a vacant BOT member who might be assumed to vote just the way he wants anyway
-Bad - Not seeking any outside input on what do to with the RESULTS of the investigation
-Bad - Allowing Mark's son who I believe is paid by ECC to "defend" his dad (or more accurately) "attack" his dad's accusers in social media
-Bad - Allowing pastors and staff to post on social media in support of Mark
-Bad - Not maintaining a walled off investigation - just how the heck does DLM, an MD loyalist know how many people Joan has interviewed? I thought this was all a big walled off process, that even the pastors had no idea what was going on with the investigation.  Guessing the potential victims don't know how many people Joan has interviewed - but Mark's buddy DLM does..how does that work?

When I weigh out the good and the bad, I'm not left with the impression that ECC is handling this in the way I would want if a close female friend or family member were a victim, rather, they are largely handling it the way most churches do, circle the wagons against the outside attack.

[Greentruth]

Thank you for the disclosure of your thoughts, and yes many will make their own decision on what to think. Myself I have lived among ECC people, and by far they have the highest grade integrity I could give them, and I have worked in evangelism all over the world. No one is without some fault at some point, but when a spirit filled group, as ECC, they have always reacted in heart felt resolution in any matter I have seen. I wasn’t everywhere in all circumstances, but not once did I see or experince any action that would justify some of the accusations I see here. They seek God in His word to a higher degree n my opinion, than some organizations that follow a safer more within ministry, of which is great, but not for all. Jesus last words before joining our loving Father where to reach out to the lost teaching the good news of hope and salvation. ECC has so much opportunity for those who love outreach and sharing the good news. And not just sharing the gospel, but entering into sometimes controversial issues to help the lost and hurt heal and find peace and joy in Jesus. Sometimes that involves a tough voice, to share what some take as hurtful. Seen it and experienced it many times. Sure, some may have in zeal for the Lord over extended Love or correction, but that is how some issues have to be approached. I was reading in Acts last night where Peter and John where going to the Temple to worship and a crippled man who always sat at the entry begging for money. Peter told him I don’t have any money but I have this. He took his hand and yanked him to his feet, saying in Jesus name walk,and he did, dancing and praising God. Sometimes people need a yank up to be healed, and it takes people of strong heart and resolve to trust God and do what is sometimes looked at as controversial. I Loved Mark and others teaching and heart felt outpouring.  This isn’t exceptable for some, and that’s fine, and those who boldly take Gods word forward do get persecuted at times, and I KNOW God will reward them for their boldness.

I have no issue with how this debacle is being handled by ECC, and see the utmost integrity that can be given in something like this. Some will disagree regardless, soI see moving forward will show those with doubt  God is behind their decisions. If not it can be argued then. To assume before any action is hurtful to the whole process, for everyone involved, including scout. 

[ShineTheLight]

Hey GTA - what I posted above (other than the names of the BOT members) wasn't described as "facts" - I don't think the word "fact" appears in my post, so your quotes around "facts" are in error - who are you quoting? in "fact" (see, this is a post that does use that word!)  I explicitly said "in my opinion".

For my part, I have a hard time engaging with you - I have yet to see the slightest hint of any balance in your perspective - ECC, Mark, his supporters, his family, can do no wrong, Suzanne, her supporters, can do no right.  It's fine for you to see the world that way, it just limits my perceived value in engaging with you.  I saw even people who support Suzanne say it was wrong of her to post Mark's name in the child abuser directory, I have yet to see the slightest bit of acknowledgment from you, DLM, GT that Jeromy's approach (unlike Mark's other kids) was harmful.  I have yet to see any acknowledgment (from any of you) that Loey and Natalie are fine, upstanding credible women, your sisters in Christ, who certainly came away from their experience with Mark saying it was not positive.  That means something. If they were saying someone else had mistreated them, who wasn't Mark or another ECC pastor, you might very well believe them and be crying out for justice for them.

The only "fact" - the names of the BOT are correct. Believe me or not, but if you don't, be prepared to prove me wrong. I know one of them personally, the other (Nick) has it listed on his work webpage for goodness sake, and no one has disputed the other 2. In fact, by the reaction from you, DML, "Rypick", I'm more sure of Todd than any other name on the list.

[Rypick]

Hey GTA - what I posted above (other than the names of the BOT members) wasn't described as "facts" (I don't think the word "fact" appears in my post, rather, like most things in our lives, its my perceptions others may feel differently.

For my part, I have a hard time engaging with you - I have yet to see the slightest hint of any balance in your perspective - ECC, Mark, his supporters, his family, can do no wrong, Suzanne, her supporters, can do no right.  It's fine for you to see the world that way, it just limits my perceived value in engaging with you.  I saw even people who support Suzanne say it was wrong of her to post Mark's name in the child abuser directory, I have yet to see the slightest bit of acknowledgment from you, DLM, GT that Jeromy's approach (unlike Mark's other kids) was harmful.  I have yet to see any acknowledgment that Loey and Natalie are fine, upstanding credible women, your sisters in Christ, who certainly came away from their experience with Mark saying it was not positive.  That means something. If they were saying someone else had mistreated them, who wasn't Mark or another ECC pastor, you might very well believe them and be crying out for justice for them.

The only "fact" - the names of the BOT are correct. Believe me or not, but if you don't, be prepared to prove me wrong. I know one of them personally, the other (Nick) has it listed on his work webpage for goodness sake, and no one has disputed the other 2. In fact, by the reaction from you, DML, Rypick, I'm more sure of Todd than any other name on the list.

If you're going to incorrectly drop my name as proof of the identity of the Rock BOT member, at least put quotes around it. 

[ShineTheLight]

I thought it offended you the first time so I dropped them the 2nd time 

[Rebel in a Good Way]

Mmm...2 of your  facts contradict one another...

So they know and care enough to hide their board members. But then they aren't aware and don't care.

Were they "attacked" in real life, or just that their conflicts of interest were questioned on the forum?

Fact: The BOT has never been secret until the crisis and people on this forum attacked ECC/BOT members.
Fact: BOT has nothing to do with Mark's son defending him....why would he need their permission? Why would they even know since they aren't on social media. Most people aren't even aware or care much about your forum.

Lots of assumptions and speculations on here.....

Fact: The BOT has never been secret until the crisis and people on this forum attacked ECC/BOT members.
Not Fact: Having someone who runs a ministry with Mark's son in law vote on Mark's guilt
Not Fact: Chairman of the Board appointing vacant BOT member
Not Fact: ECC not seeking outside input
 Fact: BOT has nothing to do with Mark's son defending him....why would he need their permission? Why would they even know since they aren't on social media. Most people aren't even aware or care much about your forum.
 Fact: I thought you all didn't want a walled off investigation? Now this is an accusation....hmmm

[KnowingGod]

I would hardly call the GCC church I atttended “Sprit Filled” in my opinion. Unless your definition of beimg spirit filled is a works based theology by how well you “quite time, prayer walk, discipline you kids, etc. than sure. As far as what we experienced leaders and pastor became the Holy Spirit to many and I never once heard a sermon about the Holy Spirit. All those righteous habits should flow first because one is truly walking and seeking the Holy Spirit first and all those habits  will flow from that. Your experience greentruth could have been much different and that’s great to hear, but as far as the rock was concerned that wasn’t our experience. Peace.

[ShineTheLight]

Lots of assumptions and speculations on here.....

Fact: The BOT has never been secret until the crisis and people on this forum attacked ECC/BOT members.
Not Fact: Having someone who runs a ministry with Mark's son in law vote on Mark's guilt
Not Fact: Chairman of the Board appointing vacant BOT member
Not Fact: ECC not seeking outside input
 Fact: BOT has nothing to do with Mark's son defending him....why would he need their permission? Why would they even know since they aren't on social media. Most people aren't even aware or care much about your forum.
 Fact: I thought you all didn't want a walled off investigation? Now this is an accusation....hmmm

Fact: I emailed Lynn Newman in February the day after this was announced at church asking for the names of those on the BOT so I could pray for them it was not provided..Please copy and paste the attacks on the BOT dated before March 1.
Fact: Todd Goodwin is the Rock BOT member - unless he recuses himself he will have a voice in determining whether Mark is innocent or guilty based on the results of the investigation - He leads a house church with John & Celeste Rundquist Mark's daughter and son-in-law.
Fact: I thought Jeromy was getting an ECC paycheck. You can darn sure believe if I started commenting about an active investigation at my employer on social media, they'd tell me to stop (they would probably fire me).
Fact: I want the RESULTS of the investigation to be open and transparent when complete. I DONT want Mark's buddys like DLM getting the inside scoop because it implies the investigation is a sham.
FACT: ECC has sought no outside input on what to do when they get the results of the investigation..
FACT: Mark Bowen appointed the only non-staff woman to the Board for Lakeville which was vacant at the time the news came out. Unless my ECC pastor lied to me when I asked the question "Are there any women on the board?" back in Feb.

Next time you make a post using the word FACT so many times, trying actually have some facts maybe..just sayin...