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Author Topic: In case you missed the ECC announcement and want to hear it for yourself...  (Read 26847 times)
UffDa
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« on: July 01, 2018, 08:45:47 am »

In case you missed the ECC announcement and want to hear it for yourself,  ECC Bloomington live streams it’s Sunday services. Next service time is 11:15 am  Central time zone.
www.live.evergreenbloomington.com
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Badger
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2018, 12:16:10 pm »

See if this one still works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i54J7p0FwAs

I recorded it in full.
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MovedOn
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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2018, 10:42:50 am »

Thanks for posting the Bloomington link.

I also encourage everyone to listen to Andy Gray's response in his sermon on 7/1/18 at the Urban Refuge. As someone else had mentioned, it was a very different tone. It made me cry:

http://subspla.sh/7gb35y9

New Hope location did record their sermon from 7/1, but nothing was recorded about the BOT report. I skimmed through the sermon though. Maybe it was addressed in it and I missed it?:

http://subspla.sh/dzyxzvx

Lakeville addressed the BOT report at around the 33 minute timestamp, and Mark Bowen shared his thoughts, similar to Brent Knox's:

http://subspla.sh/6jt98hf

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Linda
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2018, 07:51:15 pm »

I’ve heard rumors from a couple sources  that “The Rock” announced the BOT decision on Saturday at a special meeting. Anyone know what that is about? Did they have a meeting for the “inner circle” members only or was it announced to the entire church? Has Mark officially communicated his resignation to The Rock?
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Linda
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« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2018, 10:03:19 am »

Yes the Rock announced the findings to the members on saturday. My understanding was John Runquist (Marks son in law) read a letter from mark as well to the congregation about his reasons for resigning and future plans which include continuing to “counsel” men and dads like when he would his “ dads workshop” teachings early Saturday mornings now that the investigation is over. Ive attended a few and they consisted basically of Marks most loyal followers listening to mark talk about himself like usual and how they can be like him. From what I was told, the Congregation was extremely bitter toward the BOT and evergreen for how they could allow the secular world (Joan and fox 9) to take down a Christian pastor. There were many conversations about splitting from evergreen and becoming independent in order to run a church that resembles the NT more accurately (i.e McCotter 101 even if some memebrs have never heard of him).
Are you saying The Rock had a meeting where they criticized the BOT? Was the BOT aware of this meeting? Did it happen in ECC church property? Were all members of The Rock informed of this meeting? Has the BOT seen the letter from MD that was read at this meeting? We’re all current Rock pastors on board with this apparently rogue meeting?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 01:31:13 pm by Linda » Logged

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DarthVader
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« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2018, 10:11:19 am »

From what I heard it was not a rogue meeting.  Several BOT members were present to share their decision with the Rock  I did not know a letter from Mark was read, but would assume that was with the permission of the BoT
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OneOfMany
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« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2018, 10:52:15 am »

however my source made it sound like that if a split of some kind does not take place the rock will fall apart because of the anger voiced against Evergreen and the BOT by the majority of memebrs (which was over a 100 people there) on how they handled everything against Mark.

1.) What specifically would they want have had Evergreen and the BOT do differently?

2.) Do you think the anger shows an unhealthy allegiance to Mark Darling?

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Linda
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« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2018, 11:09:22 am »

Thanks.

I'm trying to understand the reasoning, for Rock members and MD supporters is the operating assumption that the report from Joan that the BOT based their decisions on was full of inaccuracies and lies?

Or, do they believe the report, but think the actions taken by the board were wrong?

Or, something else?Huh

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DarthVader
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2018, 02:28:29 pm »

I believe most the anger stems not from a debate on if Mark is guilty or innocent, but more from allowing non Christians I.e the secular world (Joan, Tom Lyden fox 9) be allowed to judge and investigate a church matter that they themselves (Tom Lyden who is a professing atheist) have no authority to judge a chrisitan church that they themselves know nothing about. (These are opinions mainly shared by those at the rock not necessarily my personal views, though I do agree with the video link below) Most felt that hiring a Christian investigator of some kind would have been more appropriate and Biblical.The majority of the congregation isn’t filled with hate towards the victims and the few trolls who’ve come on here don’t represent the majority viewpoints from what my source told me. It comes down to the larger picture in how evergreen didn’t hire Christian investigators. The big C church will be facing persecution unlike we’ve ever seen within 5-10 years in this country in my opinion. Pretty soon preaching the Bible will be viewed as hate speach by federal and state governments in regards to homosexually for example and the church will lose its protections such as 501 c3 status for example. I do agree with that concern 100%. If course some felt mark was innocent and will always be inncocent and this disagreed with the BOT, but most disagreed with evergreen in hiring non Christian organizations. My argument would be it was a employment matter so they didn’t have too but some feel who are more fundamentalist that right action on evergreen part. Hope this makes sense. Like I said I’m trying to share all the different concerns from all sides.

The link below better explains the concern any true believer of Christ should be concerned about.

https://youtu.be/bNZgIsdVLRc
Thanks for sharing KG. Some thoughts:

1) Tom Lyden did his own thing and ECC didn't cooperate with him. He was given no authority of any kind by ECC that I am aware of so I see that as a complete red herring - sure you can be angry about it, by why any anger directed at ECC over Tom Lyden?  At least one new VICTIM (we can all now drop the "alleged") came forward after the first broadcast so God used even an atheist to accomplish his purpose (he is more than sufficiently powerful enough to do so).

2. Is it known that Joan is not a believer?  Would The Rock have been any happier with GRACE (an explicitly Christian organization)? I firmly doubt it as some of them were on here advocating against GRACE (no pleasing some people).

3. RE 501c3 status...Rome didn't give the church that either and the church did pretty well - any time the government "gives" something or some status to the church it's a devil's bargain. Yes, I like getting a deduction, but now the vast majority of believers will not be itemizing anyway. It's not the end of the world if we have to render unto Washington what is Washington's (some story about temple tax also comes to mind).

4. Re Persecution - The most powerful weapon against the church in America thus far has been the church itself and this whole episode we've just gone through and how it was handled fits that narrative perfectly..I won't lose sleep tonight over the coming persecution. I will lose sleep over what victims and those who care about how they are treated got to hear from every ECC pulpit except Urban Refuge on Sat/Sunday.
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Linda
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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2018, 03:44:56 pm »

Quote
Most felt that hiring a Christian investigator of some kind would have been more appropriate and Biblical.

Thanks for the info, KnowingGod. This line caught my eye and surprised me.

Quote from: Suzanne on Facebook, February 18
Evergreen Church, if you choose not to use an organization like GRACE (http://www.netgrace.org/) then us victims will continue formulating our plan to make sure our voices are heard and other women are never violated by Mark and those around him who have chosen to cover up his abuse.

From the beginning, Suzanne was asking that it be investigated by a Christian organization LIKE GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment). She didn't say it had to be GRACE. She said "an organization like GRACE".  She even offered to pay for half of the investigation.

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DarthVader
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« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2018, 06:47:09 pm »

KG - no criticism of you intended at all - apologies if it came across that way.
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Linda
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« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2018, 08:05:30 pm »

KG - no criticism of you intended at all - apologies if it came across that way.

Agree. That’s why I didn’t want to attribute the quote to you, because I knew you were the messenger.

Do you know how many attend The Rock on a regular basis?
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Linda
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« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2018, 08:03:47 am »

Oh man good question. From when we left I’ve heard at least 70-100 people left as well. Last I heard the average rock service has between 50-75 people
Wow.

Do you have any idea why so many left?
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Isthisreal?
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« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2018, 10:00:28 am »

More guessing and speculation...Let's stop the gossip.The only people that have left the Rock are starting a new church in Rochester. The Rock is still increasing in size. Some numbers are down due to summer vacations.
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OneOfMany
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« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2018, 10:03:03 am »

More guessing and speculation...Let's stop the gossip.

You are not my boss. You do not have the right to tell me what to say or not to say.
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Isthisreal?
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« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2018, 10:07:22 am »

I didn't realize you were even in this conversation...LOL! Ok then.....gossip to your hearts content
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Linda
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« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2018, 10:31:17 am »

ITR, as long as you are here, do you believe the BOT statement that: "the investigation does support the fact that Mark Darling, while holding a position of authority, engaged in inappropriate conduct..." Specifically, this conduct included spending time alone with women in private settings and inappropriate conversations with women of a sexual nature," is gossip and slander?

Does it trouble you that your BOT, after learning the specifics of the conversations with women, took the drastic step of rescinding Mark Darling's ordination?

Does it trouble you that in light of this, no one in church leadership has so much as sent a note of apology to the women even though one of your founding pastors was found by your board to have engaged in inappropriate sexual conversations and that some of your pastors knew about these conversations 18 years ago?

I don't understand.
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Rebel in a Good Way
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« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2018, 11:55:02 am »

Great points, DV.  

I think this reaction (don't let the non-believers evaluate us) shows lack of biblical knowledge and the cohesion of verses and themes in the bible.  God does call us as a church to take care of our own affairs and Mark Bowen, Brent Knox, and Doug Patterson could have done this well 20+ years ago.  They didn't.  When Israel failed to clean up their own house, God used outside kingdoms to rebuke them in a call to return to him.  So, if "outsiders" had to be involved in this issue, it's because ECC pastors failed to clean up their own house.  They should have deep regret and godly sorrow over that.  

To me this also speaks of unhealthy group dynamics of "us vs. them."  Truth is truth and justice is justice, no matter who enacts it.  But in a more closed group (apparently like The Rock), they "other" those on the outside and assume they alone have access to God's truth (or whatever the exact argument is).  All humans bear the image of God, but they don't think God's revelation can come from anyone on the outside (especially not specifically a believer).  Sure, it's a balance, but I don't know what other explanation there is why THAT issue is what they are upset abou?

I think this black/white paradigm from GCC contributes to the us vs. them mentality:

"If we are going to try to warn ourselves, guard our soul, protect our spirit from this world and its values; we first need to recognize that there is something to be scared of, something that can hurt us; that
we live in a hostile environment.

“We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the power and control of the evil one” (1 John 5:19).

Everything, and I mean everything, is under the control of the evil one who was given mastery over everything from the mountaintops on down. This is where he lives and this is where we live. So there will be struggle. Are we prepared to struggle?"


http://ae32b6f7a6ad6f5ae1f0-a966d7fcbad4fbcd7d1dccf3fbabbb92.r98.cf2.rackcdn.com/uploaded/g/0e4793196_1490123382_gcli-2017-b1-s2-10-not-loving-the-world.pdf

I know GTA (who hasn't been on here for a long time) has accused me of taking things out of context.  Yes, there were other parts of the document that allowed for more nuance (although the overall theme was the world is evil) but these dramatic statements are the ones that reach people on an emotional level and make an impact.  So you can say "we need to use wisdom and discernment" and "the devil controls everything" and which do people tend to walk away remembering?  And this is the training material for all pastors, so when you have pastors being taught in black and white, they teach people black and white.  And they could teach the nuances, or they could take the black and white to an even more extreme.  

I won't try to give the biblical response to "the world and everything in it is under the control of the evil one" here, but I suspect the response of The Rock is a result of this kind of teaching.


Thanks for sharing KG. Some thoughts:

1) Tom Lyden did his own thing and ECC didn't cooperate with him. He was given no authority of any kind by ECC that I am aware of so I see that as a complete red herring - sure you can be angry about it, by why any anger directed at ECC over Tom Lyden?  At least one new VICTIM (we can all now drop the "alleged") came forward after the first broadcast so God used even an atheist to accomplish his purpose (he is more than sufficiently powerful enough to do so).

2. Is it known that Joan is not a believer?  Would The Rock have been any happier with GRACE (an explicitly Christian organization)? I firmly doubt it as some of them were on here advocating against GRACE (no pleasing some people).

3. RE 501c3 status...Rome didn't give the church that either and the church did pretty well - any time the government "gives" something or some status to the church it's a devil's bargain. Yes, I like getting a deduction, but now the vast majority of believers will not be itemizing anyway. It's not the end of the world if we have to render unto Washington what is Washington's (some story about temple tax also comes to mind).

4. Re Persecution - The most powerful weapon against the church in America thus far has been the church itself and this whole episode we've just gone through and how it was handled fits that narrative perfectly..I won't lose sleep tonight over the coming persecution. I will lose sleep over what victims and those who care about how they are treated got to hear from every ECC pulpit except Urban Refuge on Sat/Sunday.
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looking4answers
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« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2018, 11:57:45 am »

Oh man good question. From when we left I’ve heard at least 70-100 people left as well. Last I heard the average rock service has between 50-75 people

Some 200 adults and 100+ kids is where The Rock is at now.  Summer numbers are always down due to vacations and the college students, but attendance is no where at the numbers you suggest.    
I have yet to hear of anyone that has left the rock since January (a few families moved on over the past summer and fall but not near the numbers you claim).  That speaks volumes.  
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looking4answers
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« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2018, 12:02:03 pm »

I didn't realize you were even in this conversation...LOL! Ok then.....gossip to your hearts content

It is not gossip ISR it’s a number given to me directly from a member and we personally know at least 25 who have left within the past year.  The gossiping you speak of comes from those like from your church and people like yourself after someone like myself or anyone who has left after attending for a long while and later hear from a member at the grocery store that, “we were told you left your faith, etc..” or gossip against a former pastor who now has a thriving ministry in Los Angeles but after he left it was said that “his wife had a eatin disorder.” I’m sorry you have a bitter and hard heart to the truth because Moses has fallen and the Israelits now feel that they are without a prophet, but God will use this time of pain to purify your own heart from the idol worship of a man or men (leaders) and by His grace regenerate you back to true worship to God alone and given His Glory alone.

The pastor in LA is a dear man, sadly, his wife has fought an eating disorder for many years, and from the pulpit this pastor told us he was stepping down for his wife, to be there, to support her through her current health trial. 
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