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Author Topic: Leaders Claiming the Moses Mantel in Minneapolis  (Read 7804 times)
GodisFaithful
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« on: March 16, 2014, 10:31:45 pm »

I have been trying to get my mind around this notion that GC leaders have that because they are a leader and Moses was a leader then they have a position before God that is just like Moses,  and because Moses was leading the children of Israel, then those "under them" are like the Israelites, and because Moses heard directly from God then obviously they hear directly from God for how to lead us, and since some of the children of Israel sinned and didn't listen to Moses, that means we better not do that either, and since the ground opened up and swallowed the grumblers, then God might do something just as catastrophic to us if we don't listen to them and let them lead us.  This teaching came out of the blue to us when Brent Knox came to Minneapolis.

This kind of teaching, equating their role directly with Moses, with no appreciation that God was doing something so different in Moses' day than he is now in the church, seems like such a huge error but please don't bother to go to them and try to reason with them and correct it.  After reading extensively on this site, I can see what so many are saying, "it is in their DNA." No way are they going to give this notion up no matter what Bible scholar might point out the fallacy.  This is how they have controlled the minions throughout the decades.  I was reading the transcript of one of the more than 500 excommunications that are so conveniently left out of any history they expound and Jim McCotter was flipping from all kinds of passages in the NT about being under authority and of one mind, etc., and then he would flip back to the O.T. and talk about sin in the camp of the Israelites and grumblers and the sons of Korah.  Yes, this is in their DNA.  Think how many excommunications that Brent Knox and Mark Darling went through or heard about, to put fear in their own hearts.  Of course, when the 1991 apology came out, which Brent Knox only vaguely seemed to remember when asked about it years later even though it was a very big deal when it came out ( he had given my husband and I a copy in 1991), that kind of changed the strategy because they had to get rid of people in a little different way. We had had a church split in Minneapolis, but we had not had any excommunications and we had never heard about them.  (It was not in our DNA in Minneapolis.)  There was a horrible horrible incident of putting people out of the church when Brent and Mark moved up that I won't go into.  It was people that were part of our motley group (Mark Darling's opinion of us was less than kind) who Mark and Brent hardly knew.

My husband and I did not grumble.  But we were bothered by some things, so much so that we wrote up our concerns and had a meeting with some of the elders.  We were so naive; we really thought they would listen to us and address our concerns.  Instead, this Moses told us that we would never see eye to eye and that we should find another church.  So, let me get this straight.  We are supposed to find another Moses to lead us, who speaks for God, but this other Moses that we find will hear differently from God because this other Moses will not have the same vision.

I have trouble concluding anything other than that these leaders are so full of their own importance that they will never give this up, because they have found plenty of followers.  This is not the abundant life that Jesus talks about. This is following man, not God.  It's a trap.  Once you see it, it is laughable, if it wasn't so tragic. 

I am so glad these people didn't get their hands on my kids. 

I hope I don't sound bitter.  It's just the realization that we were into something so much worse than what we knew.

Oh, and one more comment.  Since when did Moses tell one of the children of Israel to go find another leader?  I suppose the implication of leaving is that there was something wrong with us that we could not "trust" the Moses that God had placed in our life.  We would be settling for second best, but that was our choice for having the audacity to study the Bible for ourselves and have some concerns that some things we were seeing didn't seem to us to be biblical. 

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Linda
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 07:09:58 am »

Totally agree, GodisFaithful.

The thing that threw us for a loop was for the first 8 years or so, there never was any mention of leaders being like Moses. (I think this might have had to do with us starting to attend at the time they were trying to get off cult watch lists, so they went "mainstream" for a while.) Then, boom, all of a sudden it seemed like every other sermon was about the Earth swallowing you up if you disobeyed your leader.

I knew this was not theologically sound, but had a hard time putting my finger on explaining why it wasn't. Then, a pastor (non-GC) set me straight with one word. Pentecost. We all have the Holy Spirit. In the OT, God did speak through chosen leaders. Not today.

I do think that some of the error can be attributed to the lack of proper theological training on the part of GC elders. They learn in a vacuum from the GCLI training materials that only pastor candidates have access to.

When you step away from the situation and look at these elders you cannot get away from the fact that they claim Moses-like authority, but forget how they got it. One day a man named Jim McCotter appointed himself an apostle. He began appointing elders. Those elders appointed elders, and on and on it goes. Every single GC elder can trace his authority back to a guy who one day decided he had the authority to appoint elders. Not only that, but they teach that these self-appointed/self-perpetuating elders speak for God!!!! What?Huh!!!

Clearly they are deceived. And, you are correct in saying "Once you see it, it is laughable, if it wasn't so tragic."

Thanks for taking the time to post. Bless you.
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 03:14:10 pm »

Since the leadership manual is a secret, we are left to speculate.

In the FAQ section:

Question: How do I handle a situation where someone in my group/church has a strong disagreement in doctrine or practice?

Answer: This one is tricky, handle with care.  We have been placed on cult watch lists for mishandling this kind of very sad situation where someone in our midst is questioning our leadership.  This calls for multiple steps.

1.  Try to discern their heart.  Do they seem to have an attitude of a rebel/fool?  If it is a couple, is the wife speaking up more than her husband?  Does she have submission issues?

2.  It would be a good idea to do some in depth teaching on leadership.  Do this on a week night with core members and gently remind them that you are God's appointed leader for their New Testament church, just like the children of Israel needed a leader in the wilderness.  Moses wasn't perfect, but God wanted them to follow him anyway.  Remind them that no church is perfect, but the submissive life is the blessed life.  After all, the grumblers were swallowed up by the earth.  They need to be gently warned and instructed that their leader is God's instrument for guidance even if they are wrong sometimes. 

3.  If they are influential in the group, talented, and good-hearted servants, then love on them.  Be sure they know how much you love them and appreciate them.  If they are a little odd and on the fringe, skip this step.

4.  If they continue in their stubborn ways of questioning and disagreeing about things there is nothing more you can do.  Tell the nicely that they need to find another church. Do not excommunicate them.  That got us into a lot of hot water in the past for being a cult.   

5.  Instruct your church body not to ask them why they left or discuss their issues/questions.  That would be disloyal and dishonoring to your leaders.  Tell everybody to be nice enough to them that they might want to submit themselves back under our leadership, but not too nice, because something is probably wrong with their heart and it might be contagious.

6. Worst case scenario: they talk online with other people who have left GCx and explain their situation.  This calls for action.  Be a man!  Go to their house unannouced and hand deliver a sharp rebuke for slander. 

(I think it is so silly for their leadership manual to be a secret.  That just smells funny.  For most churches, aren't leadership materials an open book?)     
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2014, 08:22:04 pm »

I forgot one important step.

Do not get embroiled in the substance of their disagreement.  We change from top down, we do not change because some peon in our church who is not a Moses like us challenges us on some matter.  This is a heart matter.  Keep it a heart matter.  Our people need to let us lead.  You have been appointed by God to lead, brothers.  They need to follow, not question. Brothers, I know your hearts and I know the heart of God and I know that you all know the heart of God.  So the only other heart here is the saint who is questioning you.  Is it a heart full of unconfessed sin?  Is it a heart of rebelion?  And unregenerate heart?  A stubborn heart? A factious heart?  A grumbling heart? A slandering heart?  Yada yada yada 

(The sad thing is that I meant this to be a little over the top and funny, but I have a feeling that a GC pastor might look at it and think it was pretty good.  In my flesh I don't have any hope that this will change, but God does prompt me to pray for them sometimes.)
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Huldah
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2014, 10:36:37 am »

...something is probably wrong with their heart and it might be contagious.

Even though this is meant as a sort of satire, or at least tongue-in-cheek, the whole thing really hits home, and no part of it more than this. When I left, I had internalized their thinking so deeply that I felt "spiritually radioactive." For reasons I don't clearly recall (it was such a long time ago) I even felt guilty for praying about my struggles, as if my "rebellion" was so horrible that God didn't want me to voice it in his presence.

But this is what can happen when pastors are allowed to become "Moses" in our lives. It's still a mystery that so many of us back then allowed them to claim that kind of authority over us, when there was no Scriptural justification for it whatever.
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2014, 06:06:07 pm »

This business of "Lording it over" and equating their role as being one and the same with Moses, it's all about instilling fear, leaving us quaking in our boots, and it is such messed up theology I am surprised they don't get in trouble for it.  It is so over the top cultish.  It is about asserting and reasserting their authority, and their right to even lead people into a ditch, because after all, even if they are wrong, they speak for God.  I am so surprised they have been taken off cult watch lists. 

I noticed that there are two elders in Minneapolis who have had some training at Bethel Seminary.  And they stand by and go for this rotten stuff?Huh?  Maybe there is a pecking order, and they are so "under" Mark Darling and Brent Knox that they have stopped questioning and thinking for themselves.  I am just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. 

But here is the nasty thing.  This authoritarian structure, devoid of common decency and love and compassion, is so ingrained in their heads that even if they stopped using Moses and the sons of Korah, they would find more subtle means of keeping everyone thinking that they had just better obey or else.  Moses is just a handy go to story that suits their purposes. 

I have so much regret about that incident with Mark Darling and Brent Knox booting a group of people out of our church.  We came to church one Sunday (at Regina High School, so I suppose they could say that there have been no excommunications at Evergreen) and were sternly told that there were a group of, well I don't remember what they called them, but something like disobedient people, who had been put out of the church.  My husband and I knew three of these girls really, really well.  They were awesome people.  Really, really sweet.  My husband and I just sat there in complete shock.  And we never asked about it (we were too afraid, shame on us!!!!) and we only heard whispers somehow about how shattering and awful this was for them. Seriously, seriously debilitating. 

And Mark Darling and Brent Knox know the names of these people.  And it doesn't matter to them that their lives were shattered, even after the 1991 so called apology?Huh  Are the girls supposed to come to them, IF they were offended?  Like I said earlier, no one had been excommunicated before, here.  And from the whispers we heard, it was because this group had some disagreements.  Yeah, just like Korah's rebellion.  Yep, just like that. (Really?Huh) And Mark and Brent must have decided they needed to nip it in the bud, show us all who's who.  It just makes me heart sick.  And it should make the leaders heart sick, too, if they would care to look back at it.  I think I heard that they wished they would have handled it differently. Yes, they should have.  Like go to them and say, "Hey, if you have some disagreements with us, let's sit down and talk about it.  We are approachable.  You don't need to be afraid of us."

Why do pastors need to rule people with fear tactics like this?  I really don't get it. But it is sickening.

And I have a suggesting for John Hopler.  Get all your leaders together from all the churches, and start writing down names.  And since you guys were the ones who sinned in this serious matter, ship-wrecking peoples lives with this heavy handed and self-righteous policy, go to these people yourselves.  They have names and faces.  They are precious to God.  It's not about your reputation or the reputation of your organization.  It is about people with names and faces that you guys could remember if you put your minds together.  And then stop this foolish teaching that continues to this day that you have the kind of authority and position before God that Moses did.  It is causing so much harm to the body of Christ. 

Hulda, I am so sorry that, by the time you left, you felt like you were toxic, even toxic to God, so that you felt guilty even to pray.  That is just horrible.  It is my prayer that your story and the story of your walk back from that will continue to be an encouragement and warning to others.  You have encouraged me a lot.   

 
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Linda
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2018, 07:29:10 am »

I had forgotten about these really good posts by “GodisFaithful” that helps explain false GCC teaching that might help explain to some how believers can be persuaded to blindly obey elders.

Commenting to open the thread.
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« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2018, 09:22:30 am »

I wish I would have known about this forum years ago!  I still can't get over how formulaic this all is.  In the satirical FAQ, #1 is so spot on.  There is nothing that has incurred the wrath of leaders at my former church more than a non-submissive woman!  Pretty much every time it goes back to a woman who they can't control.  And the women targeted at my former church still fit the mold of the submissive GCC woman in so many ways.  But, some of them were intelligent and didn't pretend not to be.  Oops.
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