Parenting at GCC churches

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[wastedyearsthere]

I haven't seen anywhere on this forum about people experiences with parenting within the church.  I know I had quite a few differences from the churches philosophy

[MidnightRider]

Wasted,

Please tell us about it.

I had no kids (and wasn't married) during my years in GCx. Most of the GCx kids I encountered were well-behaved.

[wastedyearsthere]

My experience was that the only mode of parenting was spanking and what I call over spanking.  I was told by an Elders wife to close all the windows when spanking and not to take them to doctors if you bruised them.  

I have a friend who followed the advice from leaders from a GCC church and ended up having a child abuse charge.  He was spanking an infant for turning over when being changed and spanking a child that refused to sleep!  Needless to say, they aren't in that church anymore.

For older children, I've experience friends from that church who have been blamed for children that were wayward or fell into sin.  They use the verse in Proverbs "Raise up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it"  as a promise not a principal.  I've had conversations with an Elder that believes that if you raise children right that they will always follow the Lord as if they don't have free will or can go off the right path.  I reminded him of Adam and Eve having the Perfect parent and still sinned.

We left when our children were quite young  so was glad I wasn't exposed for too long to this toxic Christianity.

[MidnightRider]

My experience was that the only mode of parenting was spanking and what I call over spanking.

Does anyone know what the source of this teaching was in the GCx? Did it come from Jim McCotter?

[steelgirl]

My experience was that the only mode of parenting was spanking and what I call over spanking.  I was told by an Elders wife to close all the windows when spanking and not to take them to doctors if you bruised them.

I have a friend who followed the advice from leaders from a GCC church and ended up having a child abuse charge.  He was spanking an infant for turning over when being changed and spanking a child that refused to sleep!  Needless to say, they aren't in that church anymore.

You mean this frikkin leader who calls him/herself a man of God would advocate this revolting behavior.  How recently was this?

[steelgirl]

My experience was that the only mode of parenting was spanking and what I call over spanking.

Does anyone know what the source of this teaching was in the GCx? Did it come from Jim McCotter?

This could make a lot of sense for one case I know of where a child of the first generation claimed to be in an abusive home.  

I have read McCotter had a lot of rather poisonous points of views especially when it came to raising children.

[wastedyearsthere]

This was in the 90's so it has been awhile.  I always hope for change in churches but from what I hear things have gotten more dysfunctional and abusive there!  I have friends still in the church and things get reported now and then to me.  I've been in another very functional wonderful church now for over 10 years.

I can't speak to whether this comes from McCotter's teachings or not.  He was in our church when I first got involved but was not teaching and soon after left for Florida.

[Immortal_Raven]

I did notice some things about parenting that irked me while I was there.  First off, they made it a point to tell you how to raise your kids.  I don't have any kids right now, but the leaders made it a point to do it.  Unsolicited parenting adivce, especially when I haven't even done anything wrong is unwanted and unwelcome.

Second, the pastors reccommended spanking with a rod.  They claimed it made the child think that it wasn't pthe parent spanking them, but a rod.  In my mind as a child, the hand was always better than the rod.  The rod  is a weapon and only scares children further in most cases.

Third, they reccomended spanking for almost everything.  This is more personal taste on my part, but if my child were to not pick up toys like I asked, I would be inclined to confiscate the toy, not spank them.  Let the punishment fit the crime is the best I can describe it.

Lastly, and wasted hit on this.  So many of the children I knew at the church were so brow-beaten by discipline and goody-goody that there's a good chance they won't be able to cope with the real world.  Parents shelter the kid too much and when that child is out on their own, they're not equipped to handle things.

Just some things I noticed that didn't jive with my philosophies.

-Immortal_Raven

[wastedyearsthere]

I think the most bothersome thing about GCC is them always being RIGHT about everything and telling everyone what to do about everything.  I stopped wanting them to tell me what to do when I turned 30.  I figured I could ask God and my husband and trusted friends if and when I needed advice.  

Even though I've been gone from the church for years they are still doing the same things.  I have a friend still in the church that told me they are guilting them into their 18-19 year old children not going out of town to college but staying in town with the ministry.  They are doing the same thing of saying that God told them to tell them and they needed to do what the elders say.........  There is so much more -- like if you didn't have time for a small group (this person was a veterinarian) they would guilt them into that they were too busy and needed to be involved in a small group and all the activities weekly of the church.

I've been in 3 churches since we left and never ONCE have we been guilted into joining a small group, and doing church activities!  If you don't do all of what you are told you should do of course you aren't really putting God first.......  

Wastedyearsthere

[steelgirl]

This was in the 90's so it has been awhile.  I always hope for change in churches but from what I hear things have gotten more dysfunctional and abusive there!  I have friends still in the church and things get reported now and then to me.  I've been in another very functional wonderful church now for over 10 years.

I can't speak to whether this comes from McCotter's teachings or not.  He was in our church when I first got involved but was not teaching and soon after left for Florida.

Then why would a child want to come on staff?  However I hear that pastors of where she went to church were very helpful around the holidays.  Perhaps thats why she did work with GCM.

[steelgirl]

This was in the 90's so it has been awhile.  I always hope for change in churches but from what I hear things have gotten more dysfunctional and abusive there!  I have friends still in the church and things get reported now and then to me.  I've been in another very functional wonderful church now for over 10 years.

I can't speak to whether this comes from McCotter's teachings or not.  He was in our church when I first got involved but was not teaching and soon after left for Florida.

What state were you attending a GCM church?

[steelgirl]

I think the most bothersome thing about GCC is them always being RIGHT about everything and telling everyone what to do about everything.  I stopped wanting them to tell me what to do when I turned 30.  I figured I could ask God and my husband and trusted friends if and when I needed advice.  

Even though I've been gone from the church for years they are still doing the same things.  I have a friend still in the church that told me they are guilting them into their 18-19 year old children not going out of town to college but staying in town with the ministry.  

Where is this church?  Does the pastor even have a college degree.  I thought that by the eighties college education was more exceptable.  Then again my discipler/mentor wondered why I got the liberal arts degree I did despite the fact she barely made it through high school.  In addition I was not in this nonsense at the time.  I chose to go to this church because it was independence from my parents and the worship and even community was good when I joined.  That is why I went to this GCM church.

They are doing the same thing of saying that God told them to tell them and they needed to do what the elders say.........  There is so much more -- like if you didn't have time for a small group (this person was a veterinarian) they would guilt them into that they were too busy and needed to be involved in a small group and all the activities weekly of the church.

After the move to Orlando, not everyone was invited to a small group.  Once I got into small group, nothing was really logistical for over a yr.

[steelgirl]

I did notice some things about parenting that irked me while I was there.  First off, they made it a point to tell you how to raise your kids.  I don't have any kids right now, but the leaders made it a point to do it.  Unsolicited parenting adivce, especially when I haven't even done anything wrong is unwanted and unwelcome.

When were you in GCM?

Second, the pastors reccommended spanking with a rod.  They claimed it made the child think that it wasn't pthe parent spanking them, but a rod.  In my mind as a child, the hand was always better than the rod.  The rod  is a weapon and only scares children further in most cases.

Third, they reccomended spanking for almost everything.  This is more personal taste on my part, but if my child were to not pick up toys like I asked, I would be inclined to confiscate the toy, not spank them.  Let the punishment fit the crime is the best I can describe it.

I recall going to a membership class and I will give this elder credit.  This elder said he was not perfect.  He said that he spanked his children for things they did not deserve.  Perhaps he was having issues with some of the setup or felt guilty.  The last yr I was there, he was not an elder.

Lastly, and wasted hit on this.  So many of the children I knew at the church were so brow-beaten by discipline and goody-goody that there's a good chance they won't be able to cope with the real world.  Parents shelter the kid too much and when that child is out on their own, they're not equipped to handle thing

Or will just unintentionally go off the handle.

[wastedyearsthere]

I was in the Stonebrook church in Iowa.  I know of at least 2 of the elders there with college degrees.  I'm just surprised they are still telling people the same thing that they were saying in the 80's -- that it isn't God's Will to leave the church and go to college or take a job in another city, state.  

I'm glad to be gone but do warn people knew to our town when they are looking for a church -- this is the only church I tell them to avoid.

[puff of purple smoke]

My experience was that the only mode of parenting was spanking and what I call over spanking.

Does anyone know what the source of this teaching was in the GCx? Did it come from Jim McCotter?

It definitely seems to have its roots in the early movement. From Woman To Woman: Beginning In The Home by Barbara McCotter (Jim's wife), written in 1985:

The word “sparing” means “to use frugally.” It’s interesting that God not only wants us to spank, but He says that using the rod frugally is hating our son. Only God’s grace can help us obey this verse! If we don’t have the verse in mind, it is easy to think of a reason not to spank.

From Jean’s story: Why she joined GCI, how she was deprogrammed in The Montgomery County Sentinel, 1986:

According to ex-members reached by The Sentinel, discipline classes were held for married couples with children. Taught by the elders’ wives, the disciplining of children was to be consistent and thorough. Parents were to spank their children until the child’s spirit was broken.

“They have husbands’ meetings and wives’ meetings on how they are to raise their children. Discipline. Very harsh. It’s almost to the point of beating them. You spank them until they break. That means they stop crying,” said Liverman.

From Ex-members scorn, current members praise GCI Scorn, The Montgomery County Sentinel, 1986:

Delithia Gross said she was encouraged by church members to discipline and spank her children until they stopped crying.

“The wives of the church elders would tell us that you could know you’ve broken a child’s spirit, that he has repented, by the sound of his cry, like he is almost out of breath,” Gross said.

“They would say, ‘You can tell, you can tell,’ when the spirit is broken. They would recommend that you use a wooden spoon,” she added.

“I didn’t go to discipline night because I thought it was disgusting,” said one ex-CGI member who asked that her name not be used. “The elder’s wives would tell us to keep spanking the child, even if you left black and blue marks, until you break the spirit,” she said.

“Crying is called rebellion. The idea is that if the child is crying, you beat him, discipline him until he stops crying,” said former GCI member Keith Cingel.

“The idea of the perfect child is very submissive, he doesn’t cry, he doesn’t talk back. He doesn’t do any of the things that normal kids do,” Cringel said.

From McCotter explains views, finances of Bible group, Des Moines Register, 1978:

Part of the taped sermon was based on Proverbs 20:30, which McCotter translates as, "Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts."

On the tape, McCotter says, "When you discipline, this verse indicates, as others do, that you want to do it so it wounds. Now, when you say 'wounds,' it doesn't mean that you have a bloody mess on your hands necessarily. It doesn't mean that you have a child 'wounding' like he has a broken leg."

McCotter added in his taped sermon that this means you have been severe enough that the child's attitude at that point has been reversed.

"And he may, and often will be, black and blue," McCotter continued. "My children have been many times. And it cleans evil from them."

[puff of purple smoke]

I also found this excerpt in one of the documents Larry sent me, looks like it was written in the mid 70's:

While babysitting for an elder in the "Mc Cotter Movement", his wifeexpressed to me her great joy that "saints" would babysit in case the child ever needed his diapers changed. Afterall, someone "of the world" would believe child abuse was taking place when they'd discover the bruises and welts on the baby's bottom and thighs. But those of us who personally knew the elder's character and knew the fact that "loving chirisian discipline" was taking place would not be worried ! The rea-sons for the welts and bruises is due to the practice uses from Larry's Rod and Bod book. A parent would take their child of 6 months to 6 years of age from a 2 hour worship service if the child became cranky. They would then hit their child with their rod approx. 10-20 times then stop for 5 seconds. If the child kept "expressing their rebellion" through crying, they'd repeat the process for 3-5 times until the child submitted to the authority of the parents with the proper attitude and sobs of repentance.

This is some scary stuff.

[AgathaL'Orange]

That book was quoted in a sermon at least once and I'm thinking more!!!  Wasn't it something like, God, the Rod, and Your Children's Bod?


I never read this book, but this family frequently marched their kids out of the service and they would be sobbing, so go figure.  Their children were extremely compliant.  In fact, I never met a strong willed GC child... or at least one that appeared strong willed.  There was one family that I don't THINK was extremely punitive.  I was advised when my child was an infant that sometimes spanking your child 100 times in a day was what it took.

I think there are some who came to regret it later and said they would have done things differently.  But others were extreme.  But they also had really obedient children who followed almost step for step in their father's footsteps.

Even today, I struggle with what is right in child rearing.  I have questioned my instinct, the actual interpretations of scripture and I keep coming up again and again against religious extremists advising me to beat my kids.  This is such a painful topic!!!

[Linda]

Beating is different than spanking.

Reading those excerpts is sickening.

The fact that McCotter and others said what they did about having black and blue children (but no broken bones) is beyond belief.

If you are an elder reading this. WAKE UP AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS GROUP THAT YOU ARE LEADING. YOU WILL HAVE TO GIVE AN ACCOUNT, REMEMBER? HEBREWS 13:17.

As a side point, when most people are asked to quote a scripture, they rattle off John 3:16. Not me, the first verse that ALWAYS comes to mind is Hebrews 13:17! Kinda pathetic. I actually think that is kind of telling. John 3:16 is about what GOD did for us, Hebrews 13:17 is about what men do for us. It's an oft quoted verse that puts the focus on men.

[wastedyearsthere]

I have a friend who was charged with child abuse from spanking their infant.  The parents turned the man in.  The GCC church was under investigation since they were taking directions on child raising from the  church.

It seems that spanking was their answer for all discipline with children.  

I think my oldest daughter needs some therapy because of our over spanking coming from teaching and direction from that church.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Wasted years, she's not the only one, bless all of you.  We are all one this journey together aren't we.  Even with my children who were very young when we left, I had to reattach and rebond with them the right way.  I had learned that children fit into the family not the family fitting to the child.  This was played out in an extreme way where I thought that my kids weren't even supposed to ask for anything practically.

I probably seem very permissive or indulgent now, but it is incredibly important to me that my children KNOW I am there to meet their needs.  

It's complicated, isn't it.  And it's amazing how group think, mob psychology, and brain washing as well as peer pressure and dominating relationships can make you do things you would never think you were capable of.  I'm speaking not in regards to myself, but in regards to some loving kind people who have basically abused their children out of these motivations.  How sad.  And when will it end?