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Author Topic: Questions from Peace  (Read 12422 times)
Linda
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« on: February 07, 2018, 02:24:17 pm »

I’ve copied the post from Peace so Scout’s thread will not get diluted with other discussions. Here is her/his post:

Maybe this post should be moved to a different category, but I couldn't figure out how. I am not trying to start an argument (and I don't know anything about the Mark Darling situation).

I am a current GCx member and truly want to know the answer to this question: What can current members do about any/all of this? Should we make an appeal to our pastors to leave GCx? Should we demand our current leaders step-down due to their affiliation? Should we all leave? Should we tell everyone we know about this forum? Should we even attempt at communicating with some of you who we may know?

I have seen a guest or someone from GCx asked this in the past and they were sent a bunch of articles about the church history, articles about church abuse, etc... I am aware of all of those things and have many thoughts and opinions that would agree with many of you. I am simply asking, what would you like current members to do? Do you believe change can be made? Do you believe that there are good, well-intentioned people within GCx whose hearts are breaking over these things, but want to stay to foster change?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 02:27:45 pm by Linda » Logged

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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2018, 02:35:20 pm »

Hi Peace -

The most helpful thing you can do is listen to believers outside of GCx to find out what a healthy church looks like and what they do NOT look like.  Read Christian articles and books about these differences.  Talk to healthy Christians or Christian counselors about this.  Get your input from outside your organization.  Ask the Holy Spirit for guidance to figure out which side your church is on.  Making your own decision on this will be VERY empowering.

Staying in an unhealthy church group will damage our joy, peace, and faith.  But, that is a decision I believe God wants you to make for yourself by faith.  He WILL take care of you.  It won't be easy, but it will be freeing and much more satisfying.  I recommend going to a few other healthy bible studies or churches (with a friend if you can) to get a balanced and fresh perspective.  It may take visiting 5-10 other churches till you find one. Until then, meet with other believers outside your church for lunch, or attend a community bible study to find some new friends.  

When we have been in a very controlled environment for so long where leaders tell us what to do in virtually every area in our lives, leaving can seem shaky for a while.  Decisions and choices are now on us where they should have been, but it can feel scary and even a tad lonely at times. But, the opportunity to rely more upon God and trust his speaking into our lives personally is exhilarating!  The joy and adventure of seeking God instead of men gives much greater purpose to our lives.

This is a GREAT, HONEST and familiar question to most of us.  We have been there.  This can be a conversation topic started by YOU by tapping on FORUM, then pick one forum heading option you feel it applies to, then select New Topic.  You'll be able to type in a Title and start writing.  Others can reply to you to give you encouragement and help you in your journey.  I see Linda started a spot for you, but you can use this method for starting any new topics.

I am including a link to another's post on here which is VERY helpful in identifying healthy vs. unhealthy church groups:

http://forum.gcmwarning.com/general-discussion/bite-model-applied-to-gcc/


Glad God used this very painful abuse in Scout's life to start you processing some of these questions.


Gratefully,

Janet




« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 08:31:39 am by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

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Peace
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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2018, 02:51:11 pm »

Thank you for creating this thread, Linda.

And thank you for your response, Janet.

I am thankful for the suggestions and I do believe you are trying to help me.

The questions from my original post weren't really asking about how I should get out of GCx (although I'm not opposed to leaving someday, being called elsewhere, job changes, etc. I just haven't felt the pull to leave at the current time) But what if God has called me to stay? What if I am in a bible study with people from outside my church? What if this isn't the only church I've ever attended? What if I have talked to my pastors and staff about some concerns I've had? What if the things posted here just have not been my experience with GCx? The answers to these questions for me are -  yes (again, at least for now). So again I will ask, "What can current members do about any/all of this?"
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 02:54:27 pm by Peace » Logged
Boggs
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2018, 08:58:55 pm »

It seems that your response is to stay at your church and effect the change that might be necessary. That's natural and admirable. Based on my experience with local GCx churches and the national leadership, including Mark Darling, I believe that chances are low that real change can happen from within. There is so much inertia in the leadership and culture of the movement that real, foundational change seems unlikely to me.

I believe that Mark Darling should face a truly independent investigation into Scout's allegations. If they are found to be true by an independent party, Evergreen should remove Mark Darling from local and regional leadership.

You should pay close attention to how this investigation proceeds.
If it is not independent, you should be concerned.
If it is not thorough, you should be concerned.
If it is not fair to ALL parties, you should be concerned.
If it finds that Scout's allegations are true and does not result in meaningful consequences for Mark Darling, you should be concerned.

Depending on where your church is, you should consider how your pastors are beholden to Mark Darling. I attended Cedarcreek Community Church in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, which is in Darling's region. I saw that my pastors were subject to Mark's control through regional politics. He wields significant power within Evergreen and the upper midwest churches. Major decisions such as church discipline, church leadership, and church planting all fall under his control. How have your pastors responded to these allegations, and how will they respond to any followup?

I will be encouraged if Mark Darling is removed from leadership. I'll also take it with a grain of salt, as I believe that there are dozens of mini-Marks ready to fill his spot if he falls. The next layer of leadership is no more healthy and prepared to run a healthy organization, as it is generated entirely through the influence and culture of the highest leadership. Think of how hard Mark and men like him work to reproduce themselves - to build up men who share their values and commitment to the church. These disciples are the future of GCx.

I'm going to break out your questions and answer them as best I can. My GCx involvement started in high school and I left after 12 years. I attended retreats, attended HSLT, lead worship teams, lead ministries, completed GCLI, discipled younger leaders, lead small groups, attended faithwalkers, went on multiple mission trips, attended a pastor's conference, and went on a church plant. I've been around.

What can current members do about any/all of this?
- I'd start by demanding that Mark Darling not be involved in your church. Not involved in decisions, not speaking on Sunday mornings, not present at regional meetings.
- How much influence do you hold with your pastors? Can you convince them to take a stand that may harm their standing among their leaders and peers?

Should we make an appeal to our pastors to leave GCx?
- It's happened before, but it is very rare. Your church probably has much of the unhealthy DNA with or without GCx, but circumstances may vary.

Should we demand our current leaders step-down due to their affiliation?
- No, affiliation is not the problem here. You should expect your leaders to have integrity.
- Who would replace your current leaders? Who would select them? Who would hold them accountable?

Should we all leave?
- You should all seek a healthy community.

Should we tell everyone we know about this forum?
- I think every member of a GCx church should be aware of their history and tendencies to abusive practices. This forum may be a good resource; the BITE model may be another good resource; books about abusive churches are another.

Should we even attempt at communicating with some of you who we may know?
- I'm not sure what this question is asking. If you're asking if you should communicate with ex-GCx members, yes! Sometimes it is implied that Christians who leave GCx are not on the same path as you, and you should avoid contact with them – I’d say that’s a good reason to ignore that advice and reach out anyhow.

I am simply asking, what would you like current members to do?
- Demand integrity from your leaders. Seek healthy community, within your current GCx church or elsewhere. Speak up for the marginalized.

Do you believe change can be made?
- Personally, no. I believe the "raise from within" culture ensures that future leadership will have many of the same flaws as past and current leadership.

Do you believe that there are good, well-intentioned people within GCx whose hearts are breaking over these things, but want to stay to foster change?
- Yes, absolutely. I think GCx churches are full of good, well-intentioned people who are seeking to do their best to serve God in their churches. And many will never experience abuse or notice it in others.
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Free in Christ
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2018, 07:09:54 am »

Hi Peace,
I agree with Boggs that a great step would be to talk to friends who have left the movement. When you do, approach them with a heart of wanting to understand and hear them, without any other agenda. This can both give your friends the honor of being heard and understood, a fundamental human desire, and it can hopefully help you gain a better understanding of the genuine way people have been impacted.

I think one thing about the purpose of this forum is important to understand. When I was still in the movement, I believed it was a bunch of bitter, immature people who didn't know how to move on and wanted to hurt the movement, as I was told Now that I am on the outside, I have a completely different understanding. This forum, in terms of how I primarily view it and how I believe many others do, is for us (not for GCx). People who have experienced spiritual abuse are helped by talking through what they have experienced with people who can genuinely relate and reading about the experience of others. I know many people who never post here but who frequently read because it has helped them to gain healing through understanding their situation. For some who have experienced spiritual abuse, the impact is long-term and does not go away in a year. I left  GCx in earnest 15 years ago and I am just now beginning to understand how high control leaders have left me with a codependent approach to the church that still negatively impacts my life. So that is why even years later I still occasionally read here.

This might seem tangential, but I do think it is vital to understand that this forum really is, in large part, for us and not just some kind of spiritual vendetta.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 07:15:47 am by Free in Christ » Logged
Peace
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2018, 11:52:25 am »

Thank you Boggs and Free in Christ.

I appreciate your responses very much.

In an attempt to avoid further hurt, arguments or even the appearance of defending what I believe to be real pain resulting from your experiences in GCx, I am not going to respond with a lengthy outline of my assessment of GCx from an "insider's" perspective because as Free in Christ stated extremely well, this is not what the purpose of the forum is.

I guess I just really do believe things can change and I have witnessed change over the years I've been involved. I believe I am doing the vast majority of the things Boggs outlined in his responses to my questions. I have also reached out to several local ex-GCxers with these same questions and received similar answers to what the two of you have said. Certainly, I am not perfect nor do I think I can somehow magically reverse the decades of hurt, pain, bad teaching and abuse that are described on this forum, but I do truly believe people, churches and even this movement can change.
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Rebel in a Good Way
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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2018, 07:50:33 am »

Peace, my question to you would be what "change" are you seeing?  Is it change borne out of sorrowful repentance?  Are they desperately seeking justice?  Have they stopped all forward motion in trying to grow their church because they are so convicted to right the wrongs they have done?  Is abuse discussed publicly?  Does the church have a specific plan?  Are they seeking outside expert resources in the matter?  Have any public apologies been made?  Are past victims satisfied with the changes you have seen?

"I Cor 7:10-11a  Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done."

What examples of earnestness, eagerness, alarm, longing, concern, indignation (for the victims, not for themselves) have you seen?  These are strong and passionate words, they are not referring to accidental improvements or strategic changes.

If you are seeing small changes/improvements, I would call that wordly sorrow. It just means they are trying to tweak things so as not to receive criticism but are not doing it out of a heart of repentance.  They might be aware of small problems without understanding the problem of the big picture.  It would be like pulling a splinter from someone who is having a heart attack and saying well, "it's getting better."

By staying, you are supporting GCC with time, money (I'm assuming, since that is so heavily emphasized), and the validation of your name and presence.  You are saying that "I am willing to be a part of this church that has caused so much pain and not meaningfully repented for it." If you think God is calling you to do that and you will be instrumental for change (and I would ask what your plan is for that?) then obviously stay.  As a former member who was abused, I think someone who is aware of the pain caused and chooses to stay is choosing to support my abusers.  Unless of course those major signs of repentance are present, but they are certainly not visible in my former GCC church.  But that's just me.  

Luke 19:8-9 is an example of godly repentance in the bible, the story of Zaccheaeus.  He was so convicted of his wrongdoing that not only did he want to make it right, but he wanted to make it right and then 4 times that. That is a man in the presence of Jesus, gripped by grace and convicted to make things new as he is a new creation. Zaccheaeus didn't just say "well, I will make this minor change here, and respond to this person's complaint about my abuse here, and seek to work things out with this particular family, and I'll hold a meeting to "explain" what "really" happened, I'll explain that this is what all tax collectors do, and some people might get to witness that I'm stealing less now..."  No, he wanted to make things right with *every* individual as well as sacrifice for the greater good.  He immediately stopped his exploitative behavior and made restorative amends.  

Luke 19:8-9  "But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham."

Peace, I pray your church comes to have a Zacchaeus moment.  Until you see that and nothing less, in my opinion, you are deceiving yourself to hope for meaningful change.  
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 08:28:45 am by Rebel in a Good Way » Logged
Peace
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2018, 11:44:57 am »

Rebel in a Good Way, thank you for your additional post.

I think it is important to remember that I don't know you, the church you attended, the leaders and people who hurt you or any of the extremely personal details about the abuse you experienced. I am in no way denying it, defending it or dismissing it, but it is an impossible task for me to attempt to satisfy the changes that you would like to see based on your experience. I am only able to speak of MY GCx experiences and the changes I have seen based on those experiences.

To answer your questions regarding my experiences, I would answer yes, an imperfect yes, but yes to the vast majority of your questions. Again, I am only speaking from my experience and I would not describe the wrongs against me as abuse. I think there were some individuals who attempted to exert their passions, their convictions and their opinions onto me, but I addressed my issues with these individuals directly and went through a lot of the process you described in your questions to me: I saw sorrowful repentance, a sincere desire to make things right, a pause in ministry when needed, apologies made and resulting reform. I guess I see things from a more individualistic lense than a systematic one.

Again, I do not wish to cause further harm or instigate a dispute. It brings me to tears to think my involvement in a GCx could be taken as supporting your abusers because that is quite the opposite of my heart in staying or even in posting on this forum. I guess my definition of change is progress.

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Free in Christ
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2018, 01:20:57 pm »

It sounds like you have a good heart, Peace.

I still have very close friend- and familial-ties to GCx, people who have beautiful hearts and faith. I know that it's not the same church it was 20 years ago and that the individuals aren't the same people they were. None of us are static - and I would certainly hate to still be judged today by what I was like at 18!

From what I see in the movement is that there is definite progress, as you say, with still some vestiges of past unhealthy attitudes and systems, but this seems to vary from church to church. I think part of this is simply that many of us experienced the group first as college students - when zeal runs high but so do many other things! We (hopefully) grow and learn as we mature.
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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2018, 02:40:12 pm »

Peace, I am glad to hear your church has pursued some of these things! 

It would benefit me personally/professionally to know the following:

How has your church has discussed abuse publicly (which does not include a denial of it)? 
What is the specific plan that has been developed to prevent and help people cover from abuse? 
What outside experts have they worked with? 
How have they made their public apologies? 
How have they included past victims/former members in their changes? 

It would give me much hope and healing to be able to see what they are actually doing, since you said they are doing the vast majority.  If you have any documents, sermons, links or any other direct info, I would seriously love to see it.  The GCC materials I review still promote spiritual abuse (i.e. teaching obedience), but I would love to see how any GCC churches are really tackling this.  I am the one who wrote and submitted the BITE Model piece, so my evaluation of GCC using its own materials is that it is clearly abusive (and within the past 6 months was added to another cult list). But I do desire to be balanced so if they are really seeking justice I would definitely want to share that as well.  And if they are doing it well, they could even be an example for other churches to follow.  On rare occasions entire denominations can turn around abuse.

And maybe we are not talking about apples and oranges.  Systematic abuse does need to be addressed systematically and not just on an individual basis.  So if you believe the church is not abusive toward you, that is wonderful.  I'm glad you feel accepted and free in your environment.  However, that is not the same as addressing the problems that are represented in this entire forum. 
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« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2018, 06:11:44 pm »

I have seen the refrain of "so much has changed," on FB from current GCC members and I would love for that to be true.  In the meantime, this popped up and it reminded me of the people who acknowledge problems but want to stay to help change.  According to this, those efforts are usually futile. 

https://futuristguymedia.wordpress.com/pyramid-of-abuse-and-culpability-complicity/

"Loyal Opposition includes those who are aware of problems in the system – maybe even know about the extent of harm being perpetrated. However, they aren’t passive. They seek to challenge and change the organization from the inside.

Being a Loyal Opposition member requires courage, which is commendable. But, I sense overall that the risks taken by challengers inside communities with a history of abuse may not yield much. Maybe it depends on how far along the deception and power-hoarding have gone. If these are still in early stages, then perhaps it is possible to intercept the corruption processes and transform the organization back to relative health. But otherwise, it just seems a matter of time before the control and isolation are too endemic to change much (if at all), and Loyal Opposition may need to consider becoming Outside Agitators."

Just a thought.
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« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2018, 11:48:42 am »

Rebel in a Good Way,

I apologize for not responding sooner, but I wanted to take time to gather my thoughts regarding your previous posts.

I just do not see these issues as systematic. I truly do not believe every person, every leader and every church is tainted via association to Jim McCotter or others in GCx who have wronged people on this forum. I am not an accomplice to those who hurt you, Rebel in a Good way.

Would you ask every Catholic to become an Outside Agitator or make public apologies to the victims of child sexual abuse within The Church? I am sure you are familiar with what I am referring to, but there were numerous cases of sexual abuse and exploitation of numerous children over numerous decades by numerous priests and leaders. What are your thoughts about this comparison? For me, I have many friends and family members who are Catholic and I never once questioned their allegiance to their church, because again, I do not see these issues as systematic. I see them as individual cases.

I guess if I had things "my" way, this wouldn't be an anonymous forum. That way individuals would have a chance to work things out with each other instead of this creating the "Us vs. Them" mentality.

To respond to your request for "proof of change"... There have not been public allegations of abuse at my church since I have attended. Therefore, I cannot tell you what the public response has been. Again, I can only comment about what I have personally experienced, which I understand is hard for you to believe, but "I saw sorrowful repentance, a sincere desire to make things right, a pause in ministry when needed, apologies made and resulting reform."

A testimony of reconciliation that might encourage you: awhile ago, an old friend of mine reached out to me. She left the church we both attended with similar hurts to what some have experienced and expressed on this site. We got together and ended up discussing specific and non-specific issues for hours. Both of us were in tears much of the time and both of us ended up asking for forgiveness from the lord and from one another for wrongs we unintentionally had committed against each other over the past several years. It was a beautiful time of fellowship and restoration to our friendship.

Maybe this isn't possible for the vast majority of relationships between GCx members and non-GCx members on this forum, but I believe there is hope. I think there can be change, forgiveness and reconciliation on individual levels which then may lead to what I think you hope for, systematic change.

I do not think my efforts are futile.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 12:13:02 pm by Peace » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2018, 12:25:22 pm »

Peace,
May I pipe in here?  I don't think you are out of line for thinking the way you are.  I do believe there have been hurts between pastors and members, pastors and attendees, members and members, members and attendees, attendees and attendees.  We are all sinners, so I don't doubt this has happened.  Certainly, it grieves God. And really hurts relationships as this forum and other mediums have shown.

What has striked me most is the pain that has been caused by some of the pastors.  Not all of them, and as you suggest, they should not all be thrown in the boiling water.  But, there are some who have more of a track record than others in their offensive and hurtful ways.

What my experience has been is a wave of people being hurt by pastors.  The pain here can be deep because in some ways, the pastors are held to a higher standard.  That doesn't excuse the jerky fellow member or attendee, but a pastor, come on!!  They need to have more grace in how they extend their hand to members and attendees.  In some cases, I have heard stories of pastors being so irritated, or thinking their ways are so right, that they don't stop to truly listen.  Whether they have too much on their plate or too much pride, in the end it has hurt the church.

I do wonder if GCC or any of the GCC churches have a system in place that allows for those who leave to be contacted by someone.  Maybe a neutral party, but one who has influence to help make changes or make things right.  Some examples: If a person left because of a job change to a new state, okay, the church knows why they left.  If a person left because the service times didn't work of their job schedule, okay, the church knows why they left.  If a person leaves because they have irreconcilable difference, there is a red flag. Why are there irreconcilable differences?  Is it a sin area?   If a person leaves because they have concerns not heard, there is a red flag.  If a person leaves because of something that just feels "off" and the Holy Spirit is nudging them, there is a red flag to examine what is "off". 

It seems there have been many good and solid people that have left that may not of had to have left.  Again, the theme I am seeing is conflict between pastors and the church goers.  Maybe the pastors need to sit down and think about who has left their congregations in the last 10 years and see if there are some themes.  Don't assume themes, get humble and reach out to ask about the themes.  This might be really hard for a pastor to do and hear truth, and for a former church goer to want to engage in and relive, but there may be some health to it.

All the above can be said about member to member, member to attendee, etc.  Maybe an example needs to be set, first with the pastors to church goers.
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« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2018, 01:53:54 pm »

JustInquiring,

Thank you for piping in. I loved your post and agree with it completely. I am drafting an email to my pastors right now asking what our process is for following up with people who have left. This is such a simple and logical idea. I am sure it will be easier said than done as people who are hurting typically do not want to set themselves up for more hurt. It is our god-given nature to run away from danger and pain. But I definitely think the benefit greatly outweighs the potential of the occasional harsh rejection... And personally, I think it's good for pastors and leaders to get knocked around every once in awhile. Thanks for taking the time to write this suggestion.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 01:56:09 pm by Peace » Logged
Linda
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« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2018, 02:24:07 pm »

Keep in mind some people did not leave because they were "hurt". Some of us left because we realized that GC teaching and orthodox Protestant theology do not mix. In other words, some of us left because of false teaching. A big error being a lack of regard for Sola Scriptura.

False teaching is not something that is "reconciled". False teaching is something that is to be CORRECTED.

I would agree that false teaching leads to harming relationships. Sometimes it's lost friendships, sometimes it goes as far as spiritual and sexual abuse. False teaching should be recognized and corrected, then the relationships can be restored.

In our case, when we left, the ECC Bloomington pastors sent us a letter rebuking us. Then, they turned around and sent a copy of that to our adult children who were members, but no longer lived at home. Ironically, one of our reasons for leaving was realizing that they put themselves between us and our children when they asked our daughter at an HSLT to commit to her church for life. So, when they tried to put a wedge between us and our adult children via a copy of a letter of rebuke to us and copied to our kids, we knew we had made the correct decision in leaving.

As Mark Darling told us (he was the one who taught our high school daughter commitment for life), when we confronted him on bad teaching, "We ask that you would leave, rather than try to stay and change things."

When someone withdraws membership from a healthy church, they generally receive a "God bless you, thanks for your service" letter. They do not receive a rebuke and their children do not receive copies of letters of rebuke sent to their parents.
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« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2018, 02:37:50 pm »

I hear you, Linda.

You're correct on what you're saying. Not everyone leaves because they were hurt.  I was just stating that is a big theme I am seeing here.

I am so sorry for what happened to your family.  None of that is right.  False teaching is never okay.  Never ever.

Commitment for life to a church is hog wash.  Talk about putting God in a box that he can't move and direct people elsewhere.  That is false teaching right there.
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« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2018, 02:44:26 pm »

Linda,

Thank you for your response.

I am familiar with your story as I have read it throughout the forum. I agree completely with you. I think you were treated harshly and unfairly after you attempted to correct false teaching. Again, I'm not here to dispute claims about wrongs. My whole reason for posting is simply to have a dialogue so I can understand and may be able to foster change in the future at my church. Like I've stated above, it is an impossible task to think I can make changes in every situation at every church, but I certainly can learn from your experiences and correct or prevent them in my current community.  



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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2018, 03:19:30 pm »

Peace,
Please share with this forum the response you receive if you do as you mention you are going to do: "I am drafting an email to my pastors right now asking what our process is for following up with people who have left."

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« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2018, 06:36:54 am »

JustInquiring,

The purpose of me posting truly is to listen, attempt to dialogue and foster change where it may be needed. I want to be as transparent as possible with those of you who are graciously communicating with me, but please realize, I wish to remain anonymous similar to many of you. Therefore, I will share what the response was in this situation, but I will not be getting into a pattern of communication where I am reporting to you all. I want to be clear, my intentions are not to prove to you all that GCx has changed.

I sent an email to one of my pastors asking to talk about this soon, they responded with, "okay. sounds good." Then I asked a friend who is on staff and they said, "We have seen this as an area where we have failed our members who choose to worship elsewhere. We are trying to send people a hand-written note and a gift card in an effort to communicate our thankfulness for their time of service at our church and bless them in their future plans."
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« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2018, 08:16:11 am »

Hi Peace, I am aware that there are some churches within GCC that are healthier than others.  I truly hope you are in one of those!  It is difficult for me because the words you use are the same ones that current members of my former church use, and I KNOW that church is still abusing people (within the past year they have held public meetings and distributed disparaging documents about a family).  Members there acknowledge problems, but insist things are changing.  This is why I am interested in the actions that back that statement up.  I do think change is within the realm of possibility and my hope is always for redemption,  but too often Christians call situations redeemed that aren't.  And many times leaders will do just enough to let people think true reform is happening, but it's not enough. I apologize if I projected my experience with an abusive local church on to your local church, which hopefully is not abusive. 

Also, I was negatively affected by this local church, but I don't consider myself hurt and wasn't one of their main targets.  I do grieve for those I have walked with who were devastated by these men. I guess it does hurt that anyone shuns, rejects, shames, in the name of Christ and in the name of love.  But I am good and am not writing out of hurt.  And I have assessed the teachings of GCC through the paradigm of undue influence, and my opinion is that GCC does not practice coercion-free Christianity.  So--I guess I speak out of concern for abuse and toxic teaching.

However, I do still disagree with the thought that the problem is not systemic.  If your church is not abusive, why would it want to affiliate with churches who are currently practicing shunning?  BTW, I'm not entirely against excommunication, but would apply it more to unrepentant pedophiles, domestic abusers, human traffickers, those who exploit others, etc., not to people who "gossip" about pastors or don't control their wives.

I am not sure about your local church, but most GCC churches are very tied in to the national movement.  And unless your pastors are the anomalies, they were trained by the national GCLI program.  We may have differing opinions on that, but I do think it teaches unhealthy obedience and submission to pastors.  Mark Darling is on the Board of Director's for your church's oversight.  Personally I would have a problem with that (to clarify, I do believe the women accusing him of sexual misconduct).

I was part of another non-GCC church that ended up in the local newspaper.  While reading to understand that experience, I discovered the history of GCC.  At any rate, I HAVE apologized to people, even though I was on the outskirts of that church and did not know the extent of the abuse that was happening.  At times I have said "I am so sorry you experienced that and I apologize that I gave that church credibility with my presence, that I gave them financial support, that I enabled them to do the awful things they did.  I am sorry that I was duped and did not see the problems."  Just a note--covert narcissism was involved in that situation which makes the abuse more subtle, it might be worth looking up for some of us.  I have apologized to people who were hurt by the college ministry my husband and I helped start at our GCC church.  It's just a way to acknowledge their pain, which wouldn't have been possible without the support of well-meaning, non-abusive people like me.  If I was catholic, I would definitely apologize to victims AND I would advocate for reform within my system, even if the abuse didn't happen in my parish.  To me, abuse at the hands of the church is so egregious that, as a part of the church, I would apologize.

Thanks for sharing your experience of reconciliation with your friend.  That does happen somewhat frequently and it should be celebrated. I hope it was a healing experience and I think each example of that adds a brick to God's overarching redemptive story.  I do think, though, that reconciliation between members is different than reconciliation between former members and leaders.  Church leaders are the ones with a voice, with a platform, with the power to shape the narrative.  Apologies from them carry more weight, which is my opinion after reading a lot about people who experience wounds/abuse/pain within institutions. 

Thanks for further explaining your situation in your local church. It seems like you have peace with your association with Great Commission.  As a witness to the immense pain GCC has caused people I love (and the problems of false teaching), I would appreciate it if the healthier local churches would start to be more vocal with the national leadership.  If they are doing things in a healthier way, they could reach out to other GCC churches and say "hey, people will actually serve in our church even if we don't teach flag-planting."  And if a healthier GCC church is aware of abusive practices in a sister church, I would hope they would go to that leadership to hold them accountable in a meaningful way, to walk along side them in correction.  If your church is part of a movement with a history as complicated at GCC's (it is not the norm, to be sure), I would make sure that my leaders studied and understood abuse to make sure they aren't repeating it.  If I was part of an organization that carried decades of accusations against it, I would want my church to use expert resources to educate themselves to make sure past mistakes aren't repeated.  That is just me, but I do believe in systemic problems.  If the yeast of the pharisees can cause so much problems, I would also hope that positive influence could have the opposite effect.

Thanks for your input and respectful dialogue.  Again, I apologize if I made assumptions about your local church participating in abusive practices.  We seem to disagree about the systemic issues in GCC and the responsibilities of other local GCC churches and individual members.  That is okay, I just wanted to explain because I am very passionate about this and believe it is part of the good news (and part of the bible, western thought has produced a Christianity that is very individualistic and different than the systemic/communal faith portrayed in the bible).


 

Would you ask every Catholic to become an Outside Agitator or make public apologies to the victims of child sexual abuse within The Church? I am sure you are familiar with what I am referring to, but there were numerous cases of sexual abuse and exploitation of numerous children over numerous decades by numerous priests and leaders. What are your thoughts about this comparison? For me, I have many friends and family members who are Catholic and I never once questioned their allegiance to their church, because again, I do not see these issues as systematic. I see them as individual cases.

I guess if I had things "my" way, this wouldn't be an anonymous forum. That way individuals would have a chance to work things out with each other instead of this creating the "Us vs. Them" mentality.

To respond to your request for "proof of change"... There have not been public allegations of abuse at my church since I have attended. Therefore, I cannot tell you what the public response has been. Again, I can only comment about what I have personally experienced, which I understand is hard for you to believe, but "I saw sorrowful repentance, a sincere desire to make things right, a pause in ministry when needed, apologies made and resulting reform."

A testimony of reconciliation that might encourage you: awhile ago, an old friend of mine reached out to me. She left the church we both attended with similar hurts to what some have experienced and expressed on this site. We got together and ended up discussing specific and non-specific issues for hours. Both of us were in tears much of the time and both of us ended up asking for forgiveness from the lord and from one another for wrongs we unintentionally had committed against each other over the past several years. It was a beautiful time of fellowship and restoration to our friendship.

Maybe this isn't possible for the vast majority of relationships between GCx members and non-GCx members on this forum, but I believe there is hope. I think there can be change, forgiveness and reconciliation on individual levels which then may lead to what I think you hope for, systematic change.

I do not think my efforts are futile.
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