Ravi the rapist — another sexual exploitation exposed

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[PietWowo]

Sorry, my point was not clear. It boils down to "The story is unbelievable.... And that's why I conclude Mark did not do that"  There are too many things contradicting the story and no concrete evidence has been presented...  No GCx elder would do this.... Though some of them have done sexual sins far far worse.... But that story makes no sense.... And there are other reasons why the "board" might have thrown him under the bus.... maybe he became a PR nightmare for them...  I'm not saying that that's what happened. But when we don't know the facts, because of confidentiality, we need to work from the assumption of innocence...

[Huldah]

...the "board" might have thrown him under the bus....

Yikes. That's quite a suggestion.

No GCx elder would do this.... Though some of them have done sexual sins far far worse....

Double yikes!

[Huldah]

No GCx elder would do this.... Though some of them have done sexual sins far far worse....

Which raises another question. How come you're here, complaining about us not letting go of the past (as you seem to see it), instead of there, interacting with those churches and trying to get them to hold their elders accountable? Seems like the wrong priorities to me.

[Linda]

Sorry, my point was not clear. It boils down to "The story is unbelievable.... And that's why I conclude Mark did not do that"  There are too many things contradicting the story and no concrete evidence has been presented...  No GCx elder would do this.... Though some of them have done sexual sins far far worse.... But that story makes no sense.... And there are other reasons why the "board" might have thrown him under the bus.... maybe he became a PR nightmare for them...  I'm not saying that that's what happened. But when we don't know the facts, because of confidentiality, we need to work from the assumption of innocence...

Your claim of no concrete evidence is false. There is valid evidence. Perhaps you are not aware that first person testimony is considered legitimate evidence in a court of law. In fact, in this case there were multiple witnesses/victims who came forward with credible testimony. Of course, this was not a civil or criminal case. This was a workplace investigation that determined that the employee had, in fact, acted in a manner that resulted in the removal of his ordination.

You have an opinion about what happened with absolutely no facts and no first hand testimony. It is not wise nor is it helpful for you to speculate. It's really none of your business. The BOT reviewed the testimony and found credible evidence that resulted in discipline of the employee. The employee decided to quit rather than submit to those in authority over him. Case closed.

[PietWowo]

Sorry, my point was not clear. It boils down to "The story is unbelievable.... And that's why I conclude Mark did not do that"  There are too many things contradicting the story and no concrete evidence has been presented...  No GCx elder would do this.... Though some of them have done sexual sins far far worse.... But that story makes no sense.... And there are other reasons why the "board" might have thrown him under the bus.... maybe he became a PR nightmare for them...  I'm not saying that that's what happened. But when we don't know the facts, because of confidentiality, we need to work from the assumption of innocence...

Your claim of no concrete evidence is false. There is valid evidence. Perhaps you are not aware that first person testimony is considered legitimate evidence in a court of law. In fact, in this case there were multiple witnesses/victims who came forward with credible testimony. Of course, this was not a civil or criminal case. This was a workplace investigation that determined that the employee had, in fact, acted in a manner that resulted in the removal of his ordination.

You have an opinion about what happened with absolutely no facts and no first hand testimony. It is not wise nor is it helpful for you to speculate. It's really none of your business. The BOT reviewed the testimony and found credible evidence that resulted in discipline of the employee. The employee decided to quit rather than submit to those in authority over him. Case closed.

I'm sorry Linda, you do not know what testimony I have or have not heard or seen..... So, you're speculating about me....  Besides that if you believe that these elders were in authority over him..... are you now also admitting that the elders of whatever GCx church you were part of were in authority over you? If so, why did you not submit to them? I don't think you believed that....

[PietWowo]

...the "board" might have thrown him under the bus....

Yikes. That's quite a suggestion.

No GCx elder would do this.... Though some of them have done sexual sins far far worse....

Double yikes!

On the first yikes... I'm saying this as an illustration of something else that could have happened. All of the facts were not released here....

On the second double yikes.... yes, I feel the same way!!!

[PietWowo]

No GCx elder would do this.... Though some of them have done sexual sins far far worse....

Which raises another question. How come you're here, complaining about us not letting go of the past (as you seem to see it), instead of there, interacting with those churches and trying to get them to hold their elders accountable? Seems like the wrong priorities to me.

I do interact with those churches.... I'm not just spending all of my time here...

[Linda]

I'm sorry Linda, you do not know what testimony I have or have not heard or seen..... So, you're speculating about me....  Besides that if you believe that these elders were in authority over him..... are you now also admitting that the elders of whatever GCx church you were part of were in authority over you? If so, why did you not submit to them? I don't think you believed that....

It doesn't matter what "evidence" you have seen or heard. Unless you were part of the board that demoted Darling, you did not hear the evidence collected by the investigator. After reviewing the testimony, the board found evidence that supported "the fact that Mark Darling, while holding a position of authority, engaged in inappropriate conduct. . . . Specifically, this conduct included spending time alone with women in private settings and inappropriate conversations with women of a sexual nature."

Darling's ordination was rescinded by the Board of Trustees with the approval of the elder board since this was an employee issue. I have no idea what you are talking about with your bizarre submission question. I am not a member of ECC and therefore the question of submission is irrelevant.

[PietWowo]

I'm sorry Linda, you do not know what testimony I have or have not heard or seen..... So, you're speculating about me....  Besides that if you believe that these elders were in authority over him..... are you now also admitting that the elders of whatever GCx church you were part of were in authority over you? If so, why did you not submit to them? I don't think you believed that....

It doesn't matter what "evidence" you have seen or heard. Unless you were part of the board that demoted Darling, you did not hear the evidence collected by the investigator. After reviewing the testimony, the board found evidence that supported "the fact that Mark Darling, while holding a position of authority, engaged in inappropriate conduct. . . . Specifically, this conduct included spending time alone with women in private settings and inappropriate conversations with women of a sexual nature."

Darling's ordination was rescinded by the Board of Trustees with the approval of the elder board since this was an employee issue. I have no idea what you are talking about with your bizarre submission question. I am not a member of ECC and therefore the question of submission is irrelevant.

I'm so glad that you trust the GCx elders....  You should join one of their churches!!!

[Linda]

As mentioned in my previous post (and also made clear in posts from 2018), the board that reviewed the detailed testimony of many witnesses and found the testimony credible was not the elder board. It was the Board of Trustees. (BOT) I know several people on the BOT and trust their judgment. Again, the people who saw all the testimony were not elders. So, get that idea out of your noggin’.

[Huldah]

I do interact with those churches.... I'm not just spending all of my time here...

No, no, no, that was not the question. To be absolutely clear, what I'd like to know is:

Are you openly criticizing the perpetrators as much as you criticize the members of this forum?

That is, are you as busy confronting them over their "far, far worse" sexual sin as you are, for example, criticizing Janet for collecting quotes from former GCx members?

For that matter, are you as busy defending the victims of these "far, far worse" sexual sins as you are defending Mark Darling?

In my experience, taking criticism well was never the GCx style. I find it difficult to imagine that they'd still keep in touch with you, if you were really admonishing them the way you admonish us. I would be surprised if any of them gave you the sort of free speech platform that this forum gives you. That's why I doubt that you're really confronting them over their sin, but then, I could be wrong.

A follow-on question is:

Without giving names or details, of course, are those elders you're referring to still active elders?

[PietWowo]

I do interact with those churches.... I'm not just spending all of my time here...

No, no, no, that was not the question. To be absolutely clear, what I'd like to know is:

Are you openly criticizing the perpetrators as much as you criticize the members of this forum?

That is, are you as busy confronting them over their "far, far worse" sexual sin as you are, for example, criticizing Janet for collecting quotes from former GCx members?

For that matter, are you as busy defending the victims of these "far, far worse" sexual sins as you are defending Mark Darling?

In my experience, taking criticism well was never the GCx style. I find it difficult to imagine that they'd still keep in touch with you, if you were really admonishing them the way you admonish us. I would be surprised if any of them gave you the sort of free speech platform that this forum gives you. That's why I doubt that you're really confronting them over their sin, but then, I could be wrong.

A follow-on question is:

Without giving names or details, of course, are those elders you're referring to still active elders?

Elders who are found to be involved in sexual sins in the GCx movement are at the very least asked to step down.... All of them... I'm not aware of any elder, who was exposed of sexual sin within the GCx movement that didn't step down, at the very least for a while. If that answers your question. However having said that, 50% of pastors/elders, etc within Evangelical churches regular visit porn sites. (70% of men in evangelical churches regularly visit porn sites...)  Of course the vast majority of that is done in secret.... Having said that.... I'm sure that GCx is not an exception.... But nobody might be aware of their pastor visiting these sites.... (BTW, visiting a porn site is in the vast majority of cases indirectly assisting in human sexual trafficking or rape....it's very serious).

Yes, I will defend every men and or woman, who has been a victim of sexual abuse. And personally, I believe that rapists should get capital punishment.

I'm just saying in the specific situation with Mark Darling, the facts don't line up... In my mind, he's innocent....  Just like Joseph was innocent. I'm not saying that Mark Darling would not be able to do these sins.... I believe every one can do those sins. I'm just saying that the story here doesn't add up....

I think people jumped all over to conclusions on Mark Darling, because they don't like GCx.... And in some ways, it reminds me of how political parties might believe and criticize each other for things, just because they are the other party. But realize this, that some of you all are now really giving a lot of credence to these elders of that ECC church. But you'll criticize these very elders in other posts....

Regarding Janet, I'm sure that she is a wonderful lady. I'm sure that if we met personally, we would probably get along great. Especially if we didn't know that we interacted on this forum too.... She is obviously very meticulous and skillful. With her, I'm just wondering why put so many posts and quotes with colors and everything on a consistent basis... Does she really want to be known for spending that much time on warning people on a movement that doesn't exist anymore??? But she seems like a nice person, that cares.... but GCx doesn't exist anymore. Since you can't undo any of the past, it's time to move on....

Below a story that I would never believe. Very fictious.

There was a GCx church in Boston Massachusetts.  One elder named Ray, had a young 22 year old member named Sally, in his church that he was secretly in love with. He told his wife and that he was going to take Sue on a vacation to Atlanta and he was going to stay with her in the hotel. His wife said: "Oh, of course, take a picture..." He was happy and picked up Sue at her apartment.... They drove for 3 long hours to Atlanta and when they got there they met one of his fellow-elders. Then he told Sally that they were going to have a 'threesome'  Oh, and the other elder had brought the dog along... They checked into the hotel, but when they got to the hotel, they found stacks of thousand dollar bills there.... They were all excited. It was 3 million dollars. They split the money and each gave Sally $1,000 to keep quiet about this. They checked out of the hotel, flew to Uganda, checked into an top 5 star hotel, where they were robbed and Ray escaped with his life, by blowing up the palace of the President of Uganda and stealing his girlfriend.

After four weeks, he finally got home.... His wife is suing him for not bringing the picture of him and Sally!!! Ray's wife also made a big post on this forum!!!  Oh, and Sally and the fellow elder got married and currently live on top of a 25,000 feet mountain in Paraguay.

If you believe that story, oh well.... I can't do anything about it. But that is about as absurd as the story that I read about Mark on this forum....

And the most ironic thing is that people, who dislike the elders of GCx all of a sudden seem to totally accept their interpretation on the event!!!!

[Linda]

Regarding Janet, I'm sure that she is a wonderful lady. I'm sure that if we met personally, we would probably get along great. Especially if we didn't know that we interacted on this forum too.... She is obviously very meticulous and skillful. With her, I'm just wondering why put so many posts and quotes with colors and everything on a consistent basis... Does she really want to be known for spending that much time on warning people on a movement that doesn't exist anymore??? But she seems like a nice person, that cares.... but GCx doesn't exist anymore. Since you can't undo any of the past, it's time to move on....

GCx does not exist. You are correct. This is a good thing.

What you are forgetting is that there are hundreds of people who have been harmed by the teaching and practice of the group and they visit this site regularly.

You, apparently, are not one of those people. This forum is clearly not for you.

I appreciate Janet's input very much and am thankful that as a person with knowledge of GCx history, teaching, and practice, she is sacrificing her time to help people damaged by GCx to know that they are not alone and to help them see some of the errors of the teaching. Again, you apparently are not one of the people harmed. Clearly this forum is not for you. Feel free to move on.

Also, stop gaslighting Janet. That's what you are doing when you suggest there is something wrong with her for posting. Frankly, exposing false teaching is a tedious and thankless job. However, it is also a very worthwhile and honorable task.

Since this thread about Ravi has morphed into criticism of the forum, I thought I'd bring it back to the Ravi situation.

The PR person at RZIM felt that the board should look in to the accusation made by Lori, the Canadian woman. She wrote a lengthy 26 page letter to the chairman of the board. It turns out that just for suggesting that Lori should be heard, she was accused of disloyalty to the ministry, of trying to bring down the ministry, and finally she was told she was “one step away from complete and total insanity". As it turns out, she was right. She did not back down because truth mattered to her. This was a strong woman being bullied by an uninformed man. Much like what you are trying to do to Janet. Strong women don't back down when truth is on the line.

Remember, one of McCotter's beliefs taught in the leadership book was that unity trumped truth. This belief has caused much harm. To many dear Christians. For many decades.

[PietWowo]

Regarding Janet, I'm sure that she is a wonderful lady. I'm sure that if we met personally, we would probably get along great. Especially if we didn't know that we interacted on this forum too.... She is obviously very meticulous and skillful. With her, I'm just wondering why put so many posts and quotes with colors and everything on a consistent basis... Does she really want to be known for spending that much time on warning people on a movement that doesn't exist anymore??? But she seems like a nice person, that cares.... but GCx doesn't exist anymore. Since you can't undo any of the past, it's time to move on....

GCx does not exist. You are correct. This is a good thing.

What you are forgetting is that there are hundreds of people who have been harmed by the teaching and practice of the group and they visit this site regularly.

You, apparently, are not one of those people. This forum is clearly not for you.

I appreciate Janet's input very much and am thankful that as a person with knowledge of GCx history, teaching, and practice, she is sacrificing her time to help people damaged by GCx to know that they are not alone and to help them see some of the errors of the teaching. Again, you apparently are not one of the people harmed. Clearly this forum is not for you. Feel free to move on.

Also, stop gaslighting Janet. That's what you are doing when you suggest there is something wrong with her for posting. Frankly, exposing false teaching is a tedious and thankless job. However, it is also a very worthwhile and honorable task.

Since this thread about Ravi has morphed into criticism of the forum, I thought I'd bring it back to the Ravi situation.

The PR person at RZIM felt that the board should look in to the accusation made by Lori, the Canadian woman. She wrote a lengthy 26 page letter to the chairman of the board. It turns out that just for suggesting that Lori should be heard, she was accused of disloyalty to the ministry, of trying to bring down the ministry, and finally she was told she was “one step away from complete and total insanity". As it turns out, she was right. She did not back down because truth mattered to her. This was a strong woman being bullied by an uninformed man. Much like what you are trying to do to Janet. Strong women don't back down when truth is on the line.

Remember, one of McCotter's beliefs taught in the leadership book was that unity trumped truth. This belief has caused much harm. To many dear Christians. For many decades.

I'm not gaslighting Janet.... Why would I do that??? I'm not aware of anything that she did wrong to GCx...  

True unity is based on truth.... Now, there are major and minor doctrines.... One of the major doctrines is love and unity... However there is no unity if the other major doctrines are not adhered to. I'm sure that Jim McCotter adhered to that standard too.... Something that is not true is a lie.... Unity doesn't endorse lies.... I'm sure Jim would be in total agreement with me. As a matter of fact, the first time I met Jim, when I was considering being part of GCx, we took a long walk and I asked him, about a major doctrinal issue.... And we talked about that very thing. If a major doctrine is messed up, you can not be united with a person like that. II Cor. is very clear on that.

For instance I could never be united with a Jehovah Witness, because they deny the Deity of Christ. But.... if someone believes for instance in the Gap theory (that there is a huge time period between Gen. 1:1 and Gen. 1:2) I could be very united with that person, although I don't believe that because of Exodus 20:11.

See, a lot of unity depends on what people want to accomplish together. I would be much pickier about who is my fellow elder when it comes to doctrine, then with whom I will do some short term mission trip....

Linda, I believe you are taking Jim McCotter's teaching out of context.... That's not to say that I am endorsing everything that Jim McCotter teaches... I could not be a fellow elder with him, I'm sure.  That's just like I could be friends with many women, but only marry one....  Remember there are many levels of unity, all depending on how much you will work together whether it is practical.... A person, who only believes in house churches would not be a good match to work together with someone, who wants to start a mega church. Even Paul and Barnabas went their separate ways at one point.

Oh, and talking about the people that have been hurt by GCx.... have you ever considered that Mark Darling was very hurt by GCx, without having been able to defend himself??? And you and others have ruthlessly attacked him... without knowing all the facts.... and ironically, you claim to base this on what GCx elders (whom you don't like) say...

But even on that.... we all in our lives have been hurt by churches/organizations/authorities, you name it. Every person.... I have too. And I have been long enough with the former GCx, that I have been hurt by them... but you know what??? Probably John Hopler, Rick Whitney, Herschel Martindale, and every other person who has been with that movement has suffered some pain... It's like, if you get married, you will have problems in your marriage.... The mature thing is to learn from it and to maybe move on... but not to spend your entire life on complaining about it.
 

[Linda]

PWW,

This thread is about Ravi.

This thread is not about what you think is wrong with people who challenge GCx false teaching.

False teaching harms people. It is to be exposed and corrected and not moved on from or forgiven.

If you want to talk about the Darling situation, you should read this forum. Almost everything you are asking and suggesting has already been said and discussed at length. We were done with this years ago.

[PietWowo]

PWW,

This thread is about Ravi.

This thread is not about what you think is wrong with people who challenge GCx false teaching.

False teaching harms people. It is to be exposed and corrected and not moved on from or forgiven.

If you want to talk about the Darling situation, you should read this forum. Almost everything you are asking and suggesting has already been said and discussed at length. We were done with this years ago.

Ok.... Ravi is not related to GCx.... Unless... we can talk about how GCx churches would work together with other evangelical campus groups to bring people to his events... (BTW, which is another indication that GCx was not a cult. Cults tend to be on their own.)

Yes, false teaching harms people, because lies harm people.  However we should forgive. If you want to read good examples on that read the story of Corrie ten Boom in "The Hiding Place" and of Elizabeth Elliot with the Auca indians kiling her husband. We always need to forgive, even horrific people. Jesus asked for the sadducees to be forgiven, even they were far worse then anything GCx ever have done.

Ok, if you're done with Mark Darling, then quit talking about him... You all brought him up.

Thank you very much!!!

[Linda]

Re-reading this thread, you said: “I have looked through the documents on Mark Darling's situation“.

What documents have you seen?
Who showed you these documents?

[Huldah]

Yes, false teaching harms people, because lies harm people.  However we should forgive. If you want to read good examples on that read the story of Corrie ten Boom in "The Hiding Place" and of Elizabeth Elliot with the Auca indians kiling her husband.

First, you're assuming that we haven't forgiven.

Second, Corrie forgave, and then went on to spend the rest of her life speaking and writing about her experiences. Elizabeth forgave, and then wrote a book about the murders. If anything, these examples support what we're doing here.

[Huldah]

Back to the subject of the thread. I decided to go back and listen to one of Ravi's speeches. I was kind of wondering if, in hindsight, there might be some red flag that would foreshadow the dreadful turn his life took. The speech I decided on was his 2004 speech at the Mormon Tabernacle. It was really controversial when he chose to speak to Mormons on their own turf. That upset a lot of Christians.

Wow. I had forgotten Ravi's power to use moving language and parables. He was really, really good. It was so strange to listen to him preaching against the very things he indulged in. (I don't know if he was harassing women as early as 2004, but he was already claiming fraudulent academic credentials by then).

However, on a negative note, Ravi's explanation of the gospel didn't take Mormon-speak into account. Mormons use many of the same words and phrases we use, but they define them very differently. (I'm sure everyone here already knows that, of course.) Ravi made no effort to challenge the Mormon understanding of who Jesus was. He simply allowed them to hear his words through their own filter. I suppose someone could say, in his defense, that perhaps he didn't have a good grasp on the differences between Mormonism and Christianity. But then, the previous year (2003), he had co-edited a revision of Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults, so it seems unlikely that he was that uninformed.

Anyway, it just seemed like such a tragedy that he went down such a dark path.

And other than the failure to address Mormon error, there were no red flags that I could detect.

[Huldah]

One thing I forgot to mention: Ravi mentioned in the same speech that he had once ended up on a flight to Hanoi, sitting next to a Christian woman who told him she worked to rescue trafficked children. Ravi's concern for these little sex trafficking victims seemed so sincere and so righteous, or at least, it would have, if I had listened to it several years ago. This time it just seemed so shallow. It was so depressing to think that Ravi himself was a trafficker of sorts. He was not a trafficker of children, at least (thank God), but he imported women for the purpose of sexually exploiting them, and if that's not technically trafficking, it's very close.