SIN

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[GodisFaithful]

I was talking recently to some people who sat directly under Jim McCotter's teaching.

They were explaining this aberrant teaching Jim McCotter had about sin. I'm not sure if I can explain it quite right, but I will try.

Jim McCotter, teaching on sin, would say that he did not need to ever confess sin, because he was being constantly washed, like taking a shower. It was immediately washed off, so no need at all to confess sin.

What is so curious about this is all the excommunications and accusations toward other people in the church. How does that stack up? Do other people not get the same shower treatment from God that Jim and those united with him were getting?  It seems to me that the worst sin, in Jim's eyes, was to disobey a leader because they watch over your souls. As long as the masses were obeying and following their pastor, then they were covered?? Is that it?? Think of the pride this injected into a "leader".

I am assuming that Jim's disciples heard this teaching so much that they incorporated it into their theology of sin. Are appointed pastors not as capable of sin??

Has anyone noticed that in the Evergreen Church problem with Mark Darling being inappropriate with women, and pastors not handling those situations correctly, no one seems to be confessing sin? The pastors are not even saying that Mark Darling is sinning by lying about what he has done in the past that is wrong. Is this why the pastors at Evergreen use language like blind spots, character weaknesses, policies not in place, but there is such lack of any kind of deep remorse and repentance and making things right with those who have been sinned against?

Is there another thread on the forum about this aberrant theology of sin?

[OneOfMany]

That is one of the theological errors taught at Evergreen. In fact I remember teachings from the stage in which we were told it wrong to confess sin because it was already covered, and all of our sin including that not yet committed was already forgiven, even before we were born.

I remember once I was "taught" this that I would feel guilty if I did confess sin because it seemed to deny what Christ did on the cross. This indoctrination opens the door to habitual sin because "by golly" God knew you would do it before you were born and "by golly" it is all ready forgiven.

Without confession there is not repentance.

Interesting concept is that one does not need to be a Christian to confess and to repent. It is a change that goes on in the inner being.

[Free now]

On this topic, I remember hearing false teaching. One sermon was called something like "Dead Men Don't Sin." I actually looked for it in the archives, but couldn't find it.  In Romans, Paul talks about how we are dead to sin, and that we are to count ourselves dead to sin and alive to God through Jesus Christ. This is true. However, the interpretation was something to the effect of this: if you're a Christian, you don't (really) sin anymore, because Christ's blood covers it. This really confused me as a young Christian, because I knew that I did indeed still sin, and I really didn't know what to do with that. It made me want to try harder and conceal my sin, instead of bringing it into the light. It also reinforced pride because when I felt like (at least outwardly) that I'd defeated some sin area, that I was "improving" as a believer. I didn't grasp the depth of the beauty of the Gospel (I still don't!) and I think my view of grace then was very shallow. I also remember hearing Psalm 51 preached and how it "didn't apply" because it was the Old Testament. It was more of a doctrine of behavioral modification instead of Gospel transformation for me.

[Ned_Flanders]

In fact I remember teachings from the stage in which we were told it wrong to confess sin because it was already covered, and all of our sin including that not yet committed was already forgiven, even before we were born.

I remember once I was "taught" this that I would feel guilty if I did confess sin because it seemed to deny what Christ did on the cross. This indoctrination opens the door to habitual sin because "by golly" God knew you would do it before you were born and "by golly" it is all ready forgiven.

Without confession there is not repentance.

Interesting concept is that one does not need to be a Christian to confess and to repent. It is a change that goes on in the inner being.

Hi One of Many,
Personally, I believe this (highlighted in bold).  As Christ died on the cross- for all sin for all time- and obviously long before before I was born, my sins were forgiven.  Before GCx, I came from a Pentecostral Church where it was believed that once saved, you could still lose your salvation.  You could get saved today, mess up tomorrow and die in the process and then go to hell.  It finally occurred to me that no one could make it to heaven that way.  I just don't believe that anymore, especially after reading chapters like Romans 8.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8&version=NIV

While I don't think it's necessary to ask for forgiveness for sins you committ today or next week (and I certainly don't consider it to be wrong to confess, as if it were sin itself to do so), I think confession is "good for the soul," as they say.  If you're having trouble with sin, it's good to talk to God about it.  

[GodisFaithful]

I agree, in salvation we have complete forgiveness of sin, past-present-future. This is what makes the gospel/good news such good news. This is why we worship and adore Jesus, who did this amazing thing for us apart from any work on our part. It is a free gift, not earned.

But this does not mean that we do not need to confess sin. Sin is missing the mark of God's holy/righteous/perfect standard. Who of us can claim that we are at all times like God? As an illustration, the tallest sky scraper cannot boast about stature when compared to the rim of the universe (Erwin Lutzer said something like this) and that's about how far we get when boasting of our goodness.  Jesus' sacrifice on the cross does cover our sin, he paid the price in full.

But that does not mean that I do not need to confess sin, to God and to others I have hurt or harmed.  As God brings things to mind, often when I am reading his Word, I confess. I confess I don't love Him as I should, I often take His wonderful gifts including food, clothing, beauty, life, etc. for granted. I often ignore Him and don't spend time with Him as I should, my Friend who sticks closer than a brother. I confess that I have gotten angry or irritated at my spouse or my children, and I confess to them and ask their forgiveness. 

This is a precious verse to me: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn.1:9  I have experienced that cleansing when I confess sin to God and to those I have offended. It is a beautiful and freeing thing. God knows our thoughts. Some sins stay in our thoughts, or at least we think it stays there, but might come out in our facial expression or attitude. Confession is one aspect of prayer, along with adoration and praise and asking for things from God for ourselves or others. Confession is a beautiful thing.

This is what John McCarthur says about it. "Continual confession of sin is an indication of genuine salvation. While the false teachers would not admit their sin, the genuine Christian admitted and forsook it. The term "confess" means to say the same thing about sin as God does; to acknowledge His perspective about sin...Confession of sin characterizes genuine Christians, and God continually cleanses those who are confessing. Rather than focusing on confession for every single sin as necessary, John has especially in mind here a settled recognition and acknowledgement that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness."

Many hymns and songs, ancient and modern, have this aspect to them.

[Ned_Flanders]

I agree, in salvation we have complete forgiveness of sin, past-present-future. This is what makes the gospel/good news such good news. This is why we worship and adore Jesus, who did this amazing thing for us apart from any work on our part. It is a free gift, not earned.

But this does not mean that we do not need to confess sin. Sin is missing the mark of God's holy/righteous/perfect standard. Who of us can claim that we are at all times like God? As an illustration, the tallest sky scraper cannot boast about stature when compared to the rim of the universe (Erwin Lutzer said something like this) and that's about how far we get when boasting of our goodness.  Jesus' sacrifice on the cross does cover our sin, he paid the price in full.

But that does not mean that I do not need to confess sin, to God and to others I have hurt or harmed.  As God brings things to mind, often when I am reading his Word, I confess. I confess I don't love Him as I should, I often take His wonderful gifts including food, clothing, beauty, life, etc. for granted. I often ignore Him and don't spend time with Him as I should, my Friend who sticks closer than a brother. I confess that I have gotten angry or irritated at my spouse or my children, and I confess to them and ask their forgiveness. 



This is a precious verse to me: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn.1:9  I have experienced that cleansing when I confess sin to God and to those I have offended. It is a beautiful and freeing thing. God knows our thoughts. Some sins stay in our thoughts, or at least we think it stays there, but might come out in our facial expression or attitude. Confession is one aspect of prayer, along with adoration and praise and asking for things from God for ourselves or others. Confession is a beautiful thing.

This is what John McCarthur says about it. "Continual confession of sin is an indication of genuine salvation. While the false teachers would not admit their sin, the genuine Christian admitted and forsook it. The term "confess" means to say the same thing about sin as God does; to acknowledge His perspective about sin...Confession of sin characterizes genuine Christians, and God continually cleanses those who are confessing. Rather than focusing on confession for every single sin as necessary, John has especially in mind here a settled recognition and acknowledgement that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness."

Many hymns and songs, ancient and modern, have this aspect to them.

Hi God Is Faithful,

Thanks for the reply to my post but I don't think I really said anything different that what you're saying.  We understand that our sins are already forgiven.  The price was paid for every single sin II will commit in my lifetime.  I believe I am secure in Christ and that I'm covered by His blood.  I believe I will be in Heaven with Him.  As I mentioned, I came from a tradition that believed salvation could actually be lost.  I'm not even hung up on that anymore.  But I know some people wonder, "Well does this mean I can go out and sin up a storm and still go to heaven?  That I can run the streets and still go to heaven?"  I think the answer is yes.  And I think some people have even done this.  But I believe God says to us, "Why would you want to do this?  You are my precious love and you don't need to poison the life I've given you with stuff that will only pull you farther and farther away from me and in the end make you miserable."  I'm not perfect or close to it but I know I would be extremely embarrassed if I lived a life where I was all about satisfying my flesh and someone approached me and asked me if I wanted to know Jesus. 

[GodisFaithful]

Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with you, Ned, just expressing that confession of sin is a vital ingredient of fellowship with God, "walking in the light". It is a part of praying about everything and having the peace of God which passes understanding.

It is prideful and misguided and unbiblical for someone to say that they do not need to confess sin. I know that there are some people, like you say, who espouse the belief that you can lose your salvation, but if you say that, then your "faith" really comes down to works, which leads to comparing yourself to others and pride in what you are "doing" that somehow proves that you are good enough.

[Ned_Flanders]

If confessing sins includes amitting to someone else you made a mistake and did something to offend them; or that you have an addiction and you go to an anonymous group and say repeatedly "I'm an alcoholic/drug addict/sex addict/gambling addict/whatever," then yes, I'm all for it.  But as far as confessing to God and saying I'm sorry to him, personally, I don't really do that because I believe I'm already forgiven.  I believe in talking to God about my struggles and of course, I do think it's important to ask other s to forgive us when we've offended them.  I think it's very arrogant for someone to refuse to apologize to others.  

[OneOfMany]

If confessing sins includes amitting to someone else you made a mistake and did something to offend them; or that you have an addiction and you go to an anonymous group and say repeatedly "I'm an alcoholic/drug addict/sex addict/gambling addict/whatever," then yes, I'm all for it.  But as far as confessing to God and saying I'm sorry to him, personally, I don't really do that because I believe I'm already forgiven.  I believe in talking to God about my struggles and of course, I do think it's important to ask other s to forgive us when we've offended them.  I think it's very arrogant for someone to refuse to apologize to others.  

Ned you are so very very wrong! Your conception that one does not need to repent to God comes straight from the incorrect theology of Evergreen. Your position with God is one of arrogance.

Unfortunately Evergreen teaches that one does not need to repent to God because all sins are forgiven. Yes Jesus died for all of our sins. However that does not mean we do not need to on a continual basis ask him to forgive those sins. The new testament tells us to confess Ned, so who are you and the Evergreen pastors to tell us that we do not need to do this? Shame on you. Without confession repentance does not happen and change does not happen.

[Ned_Flanders]

OneofMany,

No, I didn't say we don't need to repent.  I believe salvation is about asking God to save me and accepting His sacrifice of His son, Jesus Christ, for my sins.  Of course, eternal salvation in Christ does not mean we will never sin again.  I believe in repentance, which I certainly believe is more than just saying "I'm sorry" for something wrong I did or some mistake I made; and then going out and doing the same thing again and again.  I believe repentance is making the conscious, continual, ongoing effort to move away from sin- for example, a person who is an addict doing whatever it takes to recover from addiction.  

I think I could have worded it somewhat better but my point was that when I mess up and sin today, do I feel bad about it?  Of course!  But I've moved on from beating myself up, hating myself for what I did and feeling so guilty and horrible and ashamed.  I don't know about you but I grew up with a lot of fear, guilt and shame long before I was involved at GCx.  I was very insecure.

Today I can look back and see so many of the warning signs about GCx but I ignored them because I wanted to be accepted and to please other people.  I should have left long before I did but my insecurities kept me there and exposed me to more shame-based legalism, which needed my fears, guilt and shame to keep going.  Shame doesn't do anything except make us hide ourselves and our problems from others. 

Anyway, God has really changed my life.  There was a time when someone saying "shame on you" like you did would have really bothered me.  But it really doesn't anymore.  And honestly, I'm  surprised at that.  I try to stay focused on the fact that God loves and embraces me, even at my worst moments.  That's amazing to me.  

Also, I don't know anything about this Evergreen Church you're talking about.  I left GCx years ago.  

[GodisFaithful]

Hmmmmmm, well, when Jesus taught the disciples to pray, part of it was "forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us". We know we are forgiven on this side of the cross, but the humble posture we should have is "Lord, I see I have sinned in this area, please forgive me" when God brings something to light in our lives. That is the way I see it, but perhaps a theologian could explain it better. At times I have been really burdened when God opens my eyes to some sin in my life, and confession and the knowledge of God's forgiveness is a gift.

What is bizarre is that in GCx, the "apostle" who started the "movement" would teach his underlings that he (and presumably they) do not need to confess sin, and yet he went on to orchestrate hundreds of excommunications. Jim McCotter's teachings have not been corrected by those who were indoctrinated in this way. And to this day there are people in some of the GCx churches who are being excommunicated for things like "faction" while pastors do not need to admit that they have sinned. It's very bizarre.

[Linda]

Hmmmmmm, well, when Jesus taught the disciples to pray, part of it was "forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us". We know we are forgiven on this side of the cross, but the humble posture we should have is "Lord, I see I have sinned in this area, please forgive me" when God brings something to light in our lives. That is the way I see it, but perhaps a theologian could explain it better. At times I have been really burdened when God opens my eyes to some sin in my life, and confession and the knowledge of God's forgiveness is a gift.

What is bizarre is that in GCx, the "apostle" who started the "movement" would teach his underlings that he (and presumably they) do not need to confess sin, and yet he went on to orchestrate hundreds of excommunications. Jim McCotter's teachings have not been corrected by those who were indoctrinated in this way. And to this day there are people in some of the GCx churches who are being excommunicated for things like "faction" while pastors do not need to admit that they have sinned. It's very bizarre.

Here is an article that is helpful in explaining the difference between confessing and repenting when you BECOME a Christian and confessing and repenting for sins committed AFTER becoming a Christian.

https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/grace-to-you/read/articles/if-we-confess-our-sins-9344.html

Taken to an extreme, GCx/ECC teaching that there is no need for confession could lead people who had sinned to SAY they had not (because it was covered by the blood of Jesus many years ago). I have wondered if that is what is going on with the situation at ECC.

Also, we have heard recently of young men at HSLT having to confess publicly (in detail) about their fornication. So apparently, "underlings" have to confess publicly, but once you are in the leadership system you don't. You can either deny, or blame your personality, or say nothing.