The worst of the worst: Serious Error

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I wanted to start a new thread that sort of gathered up the problems in one spot so new people can have an easier time of knowing what they are looking for.  What are the worst things that concern you the most at GCx?  By the way the reason why we call it GCx is because through the years the name changed so many times, it was hard to keep it straight whether it was GCI, GCM,GCA, GCAC, GCC, or GCLI. 


1.  For me personally, I am concerned with the idea that you're supposed to have an awful life now if you do it for heaven.   Saving for retirement was frowned upon, people gave sacrificially from retirement funds, friends would stop being friends "because we'll get to catch up in heaven, but right now we're just doing the Lord's work", good careers were thrown away because a leader told them it was an idol (seriously), people ate simple foods to give more (like free leftover bread from garbage bags... we totally did this and were so excited!), people didn't buy new clothes or go out to eat or go on vacation, etc.  Huge amounts (like 75k) were given by people with regular jobs.  Many people were at church 5 or more nights a week.  People quit studying for school so they could work more for the church.  Gosh I was commuting about 2 hours a day to college and still leading things.  It was really weird.  You were even expected to sacrifice family time.  NOT OKAY!  There was a feverish intensity that filled me with anxiety and the feeling I couldn't measure up.  It sounds good to some people (me), but then you realize that you sacrificed too much (like relationships) and you can't get it back.

[AgathaL'Orange]

2.  The invasion into your home life.  Sermons on "what your husband wants" probably made me the most upset.  My husband would say later, "I don't WANT a submissive wife who doesn't say what she thinks!  I married you because I like your mind not just what you could do for me!"  They kept trying to separate us with constant retreats. Now we rarely are apart, but back then it was about one weekend a month, plus multiple weekly meetings.  I was told to spank my kid with severe mental disabilities when he touched things he shouldn't have and that "sometimes spanking a kid 100 times a day was what it took".  Thankfully I thought this was bullcaca, but I stayed a full 5 years after a pastor's wife told me that.  You know, I could have used some basic advice like hold your kids, love your kids, read to your kids, sing to your kids.  All I heard was train your kid, serve your family, serve with your kid, teach them to obey, spank them thoroughly.  I would like to have those years back.  If you think life is all about submission, sacrifice, and obedience, you are a sick person and need help.  I mean that sincerly not insultingly.  Get therapy.  Des Moines Pastoral Counseling Center is great!!!

[AgathaL'Orange]

3.  The command to commit to GC until death.  "Plant your flag and die there".  You don't move to a town without a GCx church unless you are starting one.  It doesn't matter if your family lives there, it's the job of a lifetime, or it's a great place to raise kids.  You were never counseled to move.  Always stay.  It really messed up a lot ot people.

4.  A pastor lied to us.  That was huge for us.

5.  Leading a small group, attending church regularly and attending meetings was considered pulling away since we had been doing ALL that plus leading two other major groups and traveling across the US and needed more time for our family.


The funny thing is we didn't leave for ANY of those reasons!!!!!  It took awhile for the blinders to come off, and when they did we just couldn't believe it!  We had been soooooooo fooled!

Now we save (a lot) for retirement... hello we have a son who will never live on his own and will need our resources after we die.  I'm not sacrificing that so you can have a nicer building.  We spend a lot of time together as a family because I believe that comes before church work like youth groups or small groups.  I say often that I am running the marathon of life, not the sprint.

 

[Linda]

6. Leadership trying to insert themselves between parents and their children. (Asking minor children to commit to the local church for life while out of state at conferences. Sending private letter of rebuke that was originally written to my husband and me to our grown children in an attempt to influence them against us--HUGE and they should be ashamed of themselves for doing that).

7. Teaching Hebrews 13:17 out of context of the NT (disregarding Pentecost) by suggesting that church members are to blindly "obey" their pastors ("give the controls of their life to their pastor") in everything (personal matters and not just obedience to Scripture) because our job was to "obey" and their job was to "give the account". I was actually told that by someone who currently sits on the national board.

[Immortal_Raven]

Some stuff that really struck me.

8.  The emphasis on giving, particularly if the church is running low on money.  Any time the church I attended ran low on money, the next sermon or message was about giving selflessly, even if they were is the middle of a series on grace or evangelism, but the message neglected the cheerful attitude that should be associated with giving.  It was more of a guilt trip.

9.  Keeping up with the Joneses.  Not in the stereotypical sense of outdoing one's neighbors, but in the sense that certain things are given so much weight.  Being married, buying a house whether you can or cannot afford it, having kids within a year of being married.  These were all social status symbols and still are to a large degree.  There is tremendous pressure there to find a spouse if you're a man, have your choice be "approved" by leadership, and morph into a stereotypical family.  Not all families develop in the same way, nor do they have the same resources/dynamics, yet everyone was expected to do the same thing.

10.  Accountability being so legalistic in nature.  You must confess every thought and motive you have to someone higher on the church food chain than yourself.  No question, every little detail.  They have the right to admonish you and call you down for anything.  I like accountability, but they turn it into the equivalent of having a parole officer, not a loving brother or sister you can turn to for guidance.  Which brings me to my next point:

11.  The lack of trust.  Whether it's accountability or a man and woman not being allowed to be alone together if they're not married.  Everyone went out of their way to make sure I wasn't alone with another woman or a friend of mine was not alone with a woman.  The only person who really didn't have a problem with it was my girlfriend and future wife.  She trusts me, I trust her, end of story.

12.  Child discipline.  The theory is "spare the rod, spoil the child."  The also use a rod not a hand because then the child associates the violence with the rod and not the parent.  I really laughed when I heard that.  What does a child think when they have to go get the spanking rod or if they see you, the parent going to get it?  It borders on emotional abuse.  My second issue is that spanking seems to apply for everything.  If a child doesn't eat their dinner, they get spanked.  If they don't clean their room, they get spanked.  Why not let them go hungry or make them eat their dinner cold?  Why not take their things away if they didn't clean?  Teaching cause and effect sounds better than teaching violence.

13.  The absolute authority of leaders.  Ever heard of Jim Baker or Ted Haggard?  Leaders are not perfect by any stretch.  Yet I've never seen a GC leader admit a mistake.  There is the church error statement, but I think they wrote that to placate negative media attention and it does not address many specific things.  The insistance that they have the direct connection to God and are always right is arrogant and troubling.  Not only is it a power play, it perpetuates the belief that anyone who feels led to do something that leadership disagrees with is following false prophets and evil spirits.  Look at the Bible.  THere were many upstanding, powerful men of God, yet all except Jesus made mistakes.(expounding on number 7 a little bit)

-Immortal_Raven

[Linda]

14. Doublespeak. When we asked about the conference where our minor child was asked to commit to a GC church for life, the pastor who taught that looked us in the eye and said he had misspoken, that he didn't mean that. He even handed us a "created just for us" letter on our church's letterhead stating that wasn't what he meant and he was sorry for the confusion. However, when we asked how that letter was going to be distributed to the 300 student and their parents who attended the conference and heard otherwise, he told us we were free to show it to anyone. If he really believed he had misspoken, he would have used the mailing list he had with the names of all attending and sent the letter. Furthermore, he would not have left the talk up online where he tells the students to commit for life to the organization. And, finally, he wouldn't continue to teach commitment to the movement for life at conferences. When pressed, they say what they need to say to appease people and cover for themselves, but believe and teach the opposite. Doublespeak.

[ISU Alumna]

15.  Duplicity. Inherent, systemic duplicity. Church leaders lied about all the most essential matters regarding who they were, what they were as a group, what their aims were, and whom they were connected with.

16. Being encouraged to participate in the church's duplicity. I can remember all-night brainstorming sessions, where we thought up ways to trick people into letting us distribute church materials, particularly those ridiculous pseudo-newspapers. It makes me nauseous to remember how much fun we had.

17. Being required to participate in the church's duplicity. Those of us who were students were supposed to lobby our state representatives to include so-called "scientific creationism" in the state's science curriculum, even if we personally believed that it was a lot of baloney. That was what finally gave me the strength to walk away. It's funny, really, how I could have endured so much daily affront to my dignity -- particularly as a woman -- and yet always have found that the benefits of staying with the group outweighed the costs; and then it was something as seemingly impersonal as a question of natural science, which finally tipped the balance so drastically that I walked away. Maybe it had something to do with the "official" stance that one takes, in talking to one's state representative, which made the act of lying unbearable.

[Linda]

18. Misrepresenting and/or understating our local church's national associations. Our particular church said they belonged to two associations. Willow Creek and Great Commission. The Willow Creek association added credibility, but I doubt that Bill Hybels was consulted on decisions involving our church or it's members. On the other hand, I happen to know for a fact (have in writing) that John Hopler was consulted about what to do with us after we left. (We were supposed to have consulted John Hopler because he was the head of our church association! I had never heard of him at that point, how could we possibly know we were somehow under his authority? Should we also have consulted with Hybels before we left?)

19. Misrepresenting how our local church was started. According to the web site it was an idea that the two founding pastors had. Partially true. They forgot about the part where the two founding pastors and a bunch of others were sent up here from Ames by founding apostle Jim McCotter in the mid-'80's. Must have slipped their mind.

[EverAStudent]

20.  The lack of training and maturity by the youngsters who were appointed to be pastors by other youngster pastors without congregational input or leading.

21.  The assumption that the Bible allowed for something called "national elders" who would lead the denomination over and against the wishes of any local church.

22.  The poor doctrine behind the corrupt practice of appointing apostles and prophets to rule the denomination and the local churches.

[blonde]

23. Pastors telling people who they should marry and heavily placing pressure on that area in their life if they did not obey their marital advice.   

[AgathaL'Orange]

24.  Faithwalkers West 2009-  This captures the essence of the "discipleship structure" of the movement.  It's folksy and "humble" sounding, but sky high proud and insulting.  I've just never heard a speaker point blank say, "Y'all are dumb.  That's why yous gotta do what I says."  Well, he didn't say it QUITE like that... actually how he said it was much worse.  Felt like an assault.

Sure.   I'll get right on that!  Just after I clean the church and quit my job!



http://gccweb.org/conferences/faithwalkers/west/2009_teachings


Here's our thread discussing it:  


http://forum.gcmwarning.com/general-discussion/faithwalkers-west-2009/


Rick and Rory's message

Being Godly consists of strange OCD like practices... like not capitalizing the "S" in "Satan" and other habits.  Also, while you should apply this nitpickiness in imitating our strange practices... you should NOT apply nitpickiness if we hurt your feelings or say something dumb.

Pat Sokoll's message

People are like sheep.  They are stupid and needy.  GC pastors are the shepherds and you must do what they say.  You should not leave or change your future without their blessing.

[LucyB]

25. The emphasis on being a certain type of person/a certain type of family. The fellowship centers on shared culture, rather than shared faith. A lot of specific instruction on how to live with little appreciation for the transforming power of worshipping a living God.

Charlie Meyer's rhetorical question: What do we have to offer the world, if not our families?

Answer: Our Savior

[Immortal_Raven]

One I forgot:

26.  The de-emphasis on seminary and classical training.  GCC teaches against any seminary training.  It's one thing to be Lutheran and be encouraged to attend a Lutheran seminary, it's another to teach against seminaries all together. 

[AgathaL'Orange]

Immortal Raven, thanks!  And from MY memory, which matches what you are saying, (I know it is different than some others' experiences) seminary was taught AGAINST.  It wasn't just that it wasn't done.  It was taught that seminary was inferior to "raising up" young men from within "the church," being mentored and discipled with people who know him.  Seminary was just "head knowledge" and "knowledge puffs up".  But being "raised within" was God's Best.  Unfortunately this is a bit like playing telephone.  You start with one message and when a mistake crops up, it keeps getting repeated until there is a genealogy of bad teaching traceable to the root. No checks.  No balances.  And a theology about an inch wide and a half inch deep.  

[BTDT]

27.  Idolizing the old-timers and especially the elders.  It wasn't just anyone saying what you should do, it was JIM, or DENNIS, or TOM, or ROGERS... ("Botkin" was the plural form, I think.  )  Ultimate reverence was called for.  One friend of mine practically swooned every time she said "Mike Keator".

One of them showing up at your church was like the Queen Herself coming to visit.  Imagine us poor souls in Silver Spring, who at one time had SEVENTEEN of them milling about.  (I counted.)  We were the Headquarters, so the National Leaders were all considered pastors of our church. Lucky us.

[ISU Alumna]

28.  Idolizing the scriptures. Any Christian who can beat their child black-and-blue while quoting some chapter-and-verse justification for it, is no better than a fundamentalist of any other religion who sees fit to commit acts of violence for the sake of what they consider sacred. It is idolatry to put the scriptures before a living God, who tells us in our hearts that love is kind.

[Sassy]

29.  Homeschooling!    I hated that this was shoved down everyone's throat!  What's worse is that although most people met on a college campus, children were not encouraged to go to college!

[blonde]

Ironically, many GC Pk's are all post-secondary educated.  They wanted their kids to be advanced with a decent career, but the church at large in Minneapolis, did not say to go to college.  

I heard at a Faithwalkers one year to get a good career so you can plant churches.  When I was young, going to the U of Minnesota was only to reach the lost, NOT to get a good career going for yourself.

-Blonde

[Sassy]

Well, I'm glad to hear that... I hope a lot of the other second gen. did the same.  They need someone making money to tithe!

-Sassy

[blonde]

Sassy did you listen to them and not go to school?  I know for a fact that some pastor's kids have a good education and have decent income.  I know people, personally, pastors told to not got to school.  It's sad.  They had real potential, but listened to the sheparding pastors.

-Blonde