What is the point of this Forum?

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[omelianchuk]

Oneoffew,  I attended an ECC Church for over 20 years. Never saw anything such has been claimed here.

Fallacy of composition.

Why is that a fallacy of composition? Is it a fact that the whole is corrupt, and a part is not? That would beg the question, I would think. The point of people saying stuff like this is that people are testifying to a good experience with the church, something that is assumed to be unlikely to some (because of "mind control" tricks).

[Greentruth]

I do believe that depending on what is going on in my life at the time I hear a sermon or read from the Bible, defines differently at different times when I hear or read the same message. I used to journal every day for many years, and it amazes me how different I absorb the same teachings today. In 1992 when I first joined Bloomington ECC I was so hungry for Gods word and my place in His Church, recently saved and still hurting from some extremely painful couple of years. What I found at ECC was the more I focused on how I could serve the Lord helping others instead of focusing on what had happened to me, the better I felt.  And the Lord has blessed that more than I could ever imagine. 26 years later I still seek to help whoever I can, not being at ECC at this time and being involved in more evangelism where I moved to. If this is brainwashing I want more. The blessing I get when someone I have reached out to finds the loving Spirit of Jesus is unmeasurable. I saw that at ECC more times than I can count. But I guess this to is a fallacy of composition

[Linda]

Oneoffew,  I attended an ECC Church for over 20 years. Never saw anything such has been claimed here.

Fallacy of composition.

Why is that a fallacy of composition? Is it a fact that the whole is corrupt, and a part is not? That would beg the question, I would think. The point of people saying stuff like this is that people are testifying to a good experience with the church, something that is assumed to be unlikely to some (because of "mind control" tricks).

Because the group referred to here is "people who have attended GCx churches". A person saying, "I did not have a bad experience at a GCx church," thereby implying that criticisms of the group are invalid, is a part to whole fallacy.

It would be like me saying, "I never went on a walk alone with a pastor," and by that implying that a pastor never was on a walk alone with any women."

I understand that the point is to testify to a positive experience, that's fine, but it doesn't speak to the question of whether other people in the group (again, talking about people who have attended GCx churches here) have had a negative experience.

It's irrelevant to the truth or falsehood of whether or not this group has a problem.

[Greentruth]

Oneoffew,  I attended an ECC Church for over 20 years. Never saw anything such has been claimed here.

Fallacy of composition.

Why is that a fallacy of composition? Is it a fact that the whole is corrupt, and a part is not? That would beg the question, I would think. The point of people saying stuff like this is that people are testifying to a good experience with the church, something that is assumed to be unlikely to some (because of "mind control" tricks).

Because the group referred to here is "people who have attended GCx churches". A person saying, "I did not have a bad experience at a GCx church," thereby implying that criticisms of the group are invalid, is a part to whole fallacy.

It would be like me saying, "I never went on a walk alone with a pastor," and by that implying that a pastor never was on a walk alone with any women."

I understand that the point is to testify to a positive experience, that's fine, but it doesn't speak to the question of whether other people in the group (again, talking about people who have attended GCx churches here) have had a negative experience.

It's irrelevant to the truth or falsehood of whether or not this group has a problem.

Not when many of the accusations here are known to not be true. Especially the brainwashing and grooming statements. But back to the thread. Saying the soul point of this forum is to only warn others of the false teaching, grooming, brainwashing etc is absurd. Anyone can look at just the last few weeks and see it is much more than that. If the forum is in existence to warn others of the truths of ECC, do they not deserve to hear all experiences, so as to make a determination why a few had a problem and hundreds did not? Oh yeah, brainwashing.

[Linda]

Not when many of the accusations here are known to not be true. Especially the brainwashing and grooming statements. But back to the thread. Saying the soul point of this forum is to only warn others of the false teaching, grooming, brainwashing etc is absurd. Anyone can look at just the last few weeks and see it is much more than that. If the forum is in existence to warn others of the truths of ECC, do they not deserve to hear all experiences, so as to make a determination why a few had a problem and hundreds did not? Oh yeah, brainwashing

.

Looking at the past few months, a person could say that the purpose of this forum is to debate whether or not GCx churches are healthy. That doesn't meat that the purpose of this forum is to debate GCx churches. It is not. It just means that a bunch of people have come here to challenge and debate on a forum that has a different purpose than that.

I would not go to the "GCx churches are Healthy" web page and say that I think people have a right to know that there are some aspects of the churches that are unhealthy because people "deserve to hear of all experiences". That would be rude.

Perhaps you all would like to start a web page dedicated to your positive experiences at a GCx church. I promise I won't post.

[omelianchuk]

A person saying, "I did not have a bad experience at a GCx church," thereby implying that criticisms of the group are invalid, is a part to whole fallacy.

Fair enough, but I don't know why you would think someone is implying that criticisms of the whole group are invalid from just that sort of statement. But I haven't been part of the larger discussion. What I find frustrating about conversations here is the inability of either side to take seriously the positive and negative experiences that people report here.

[Fireball]

Fireball I will think of a response. Meanwhile: In order to see what is really going on separation helps. Take a two month leave from the church. While on leave watch videos and other resources that explain what mind control is and how spiritual abuse happens. Learn how groups can be manipulated from stage during worship. Learn about shepherding and other control groups, what makes them controlling. Take time to be still and to learn.

Or don't take a leave. But watch videos that explain how modern church services use group hypnotic techniques to control the audience. Then go to church and watch for those techniques to be used in the service. You can go to YouTube and google this.

When I went to evergreen I would have said NO WAY to anyone who suggested i was being manipulated or controlled. But that is the nature of being controlled. You don't realize that this is what is going on.

i bet there are little green men hiding in your refrigerator, but the problem is, they become invisible and hide once the door is open. I'm sure this is happening, though, despite there being no evidence for this.

[Linda]

A person saying, "I did not have a bad experience at a GCx church," thereby implying that criticisms of the group are invalid, is a part to whole fallacy.

Fair enough, but I don't know why you would think someone is implying that criticisms of the whole group are invalid from just that sort of statement. But I haven't been part of the larger discussion. What I find frustrating about conversations here is the inability of either side to take seriously the positive and negative experiences that people report here.

We might be talking around each other here. Or, like you say, maybe it's because in my comment I was thinking about the larger discussion. Quite frequently, people state that they never had a problem with a GCx church. This is great. I'm happy they never had a problem with a GCx church. However, it seems like the reason they state that is because they are trying to say, "Because I never found my church unhealthy that means my church is fine."

Earlier in this thread, Fireball had stated, "I am a member and am doing just fine. No brainwashing, or mind controlling happening." He/she seemed to by implying that all was well in his/her church because he/she was doing just fine." That is not necessarily true for all. It certainly might be true for Fireball.

I don't remember anyone here ever stating that GCx churches were all bad. We have often spoken of the positive elements. The last few months the forum had been different. Partly, because of the serious charges brought forth by many. And, partly because of the "takeover" of those defending GCx churches.

I find the takeover and intimidation rude and unhelpful, but maybe that's because I know the back stories of many posting here and the harm that has been done by some of the bad teaching and practice.

[Fireball]

A person saying, "I did not have a bad experience at a GCx church," thereby implying that criticisms of the group are invalid, is a part to whole fallacy.

Fair enough, but I don't know why you would think someone is implying that criticisms of the whole group are invalid from just that sort of statement. But I haven't been part of the larger discussion. What I find frustrating about conversations here is the inability of either side to take seriously the positive and negative experiences that people report here.

We might be talking around each other here. Or, like you say, maybe it's because in my comment I was thinking about the larger discussion. Quite frequently, people state that they never had a problem with a GCx church. This is great. I'm happy they never had a problem with a GCx church. However, it seems like the reason they state that is because they are trying to say, "Because I never found my church unhealthy that means my church is fine."

Earlier in this thread, Fireball had stated, "I am a member and am doing just fine. No brainwashing, or mind controlling happening." He/she seemed to by implying that all was well in his/her church because he/she was doing just fine." That is not necessarily true for all. It certainly might be true for Fireball.

I don't remember anyone here ever stating that GCx churches were all bad. We have often spoken of the positive elements. The last few months the forum had been different. Partly, because of the serious charges brought forth by many. And, partly because of the "takeover" of those defending GCx churches.

I find the takeover and intimidation rude and unhelpful, but maybe that's because I know the back stories of many posting here and the harm that has been done by some of the bad teaching and practice.

What were the positive elements? I am curious, as I have seen none.

[Huldah]

There's a whole subforum devoted to the positive memories:

http://forum.gcmwarning.com/good-times/

[Greentruth]

Not when many of the accusations here are known to not be true. Especially the brainwashing and grooming statements. But back to the thread. Saying the soul point of this forum is to only warn others of the false teaching, grooming, brainwashing etc is absurd. Anyone can look at just the last few weeks and see it is much more than that. If the forum is in existence to warn others of the truths of ECC, do they not deserve to hear all experiences, so as to make a determination why a few had a problem and hundreds did not? Oh yeah, brainwashing

.

Looking at the past few months, a person could say that the purpose of this forum is to debate whether or not GCx churches are healthy. That doesn't meat that the purpose of this forum is to debate GCx churches. It is not. It just means that a bunch of people have come here to challenge and debate on a forum that has a different purpose than that.

I would not go to the "GCx churches are Healthy" web page and say that I think people have a right to know that there are some aspects of the churches that are unhealthy because people "deserve to hear of all experiences". That would be rude.

Perhaps you all would like to start a web page dedicated to your positive experiences at a GCx church. I promise I won't post.

If that was ALL that was discussed here, I would never have posted here either. But it goes way past what you have stated. The personal attacks on several have been ruthless lately. You have a Wild West forum I would assume, but once again, only discussion that addresses theology or brainwashing is not so.  There are many assumptions, manipulations of facts that I see regularly. And when it comes to not recognizing you and others had a bad experience I have never said you didn’t. Actually I have prayed for those here who still have hurt seek the healing that only comes through Jesus. It’s just not in my DNA to hold onto or continue to talk about it for decades. I just don’t understand why, as much of what is said here is extremely hurtful, which is what bothers me. I really don’t believe anyone purposely hurt you or others here. But that is quite contrary to what is happening through this forum. Once again, I knew of this forum many years ago, and never dreamed of coming here and posting until I saw the hurt that was being administratored. You don’t have to look far to experince that. And Im not just talking about the serious attacks against JD.

[Rebel in a Good Way]

I believe that people have good experiences in GCC, that some GCC churches are healthy, and that everything is not terrible in GCC.  Looking back at my own experience I have several friendships I cherish that started in GCC.  However, I do believe there are harmful elements in the core of the movement.  I have seen people shattered over abuse of power which originated in main GCC practices.  So...I am not really interested in giving equal time, effort, energy, and attention to good times as well as abusive times.  If there is abuse going on (and I believe there is)--full stop.  That needs to be dealt with first.  

GCC churches have their own websites, FB pages, personal testimonies, pulpits and online teachings, etc. in which they can promote and discuss all the positive things they want. This forum provides an alternative to their portrayal.  I believe this forum is a place for people who are considering becoming involved, those who are already involved but questioning some things they are seeing, and those who have been harmed and are trying to understand their experience.  They can decide if the concerns are valid and then decide their response to that (become involved, not become involved, stay involved, etc) and if anything here helps people understand and heal, that is great.  Part of healing is identifying the pain, lamenting and grieving it, and then finding a way out.  This is NOT victimhood.  

[Linda]

Not when many of the accusations here are known to not be true. Especially the brainwashing and grooming statements. But back to the thread. Saying the soul point of this forum is to only warn others of the false teaching, grooming, brainwashing etc is absurd. Anyone can look at just the last few weeks and see it is much more than that. If the forum is in existence to warn others of the truths of ECC, do they not deserve to hear all experiences, so as to make a determination why a few had a problem and hundreds did not? Oh yeah, brainwashing

.

Looking at the past few months, a person could say that the purpose of this forum is to debate whether or not GCx churches are healthy. That doesn't meat that the purpose of this forum is to debate GCx churches. It is not. It just means that a bunch of people have come here to challenge and debate on a forum that has a different purpose than that.

I would not go to the "GCx churches are Healthy" web page and say that I think people have a right to know that there are some aspects of the churches that are unhealthy because people "deserve to hear of all experiences". That would be rude.

Perhaps you all would like to start a web page dedicated to your positive experiences at a GCx church. I promise I won't post.

If that was ALL that was discussed here, I would never have posted here either. But it goes way past what you have stated. The personal attacks on several have been ruthless lately. You have a Wild West forum I would assume, but once again, only discussion that addresses theology or brainwashing is not so.  There are many assumptions, manipulations of facts that I see regularly. And when it comes to not recognizing you and others had a bad experience I have never said you didn’t. Actually I have prayed for those here who still have hurt seek the healing that only comes through Jesus. It’s just not in my DNA to hold onto or continue to talk about it for decades. I just don’t understand why, as much of what is said here is extremely hurtful, which is what bothers me. I really don’t believe anyone purposely hurt you or others here. But that is quite contrary to what is happening through this forum. Once again, I knew of this forum many years ago, and never dreamed of coming here and posting until I saw the hurt that was being administratored. You don’t have to look far to experince that. And Im not just talking about the serious attacks against JD.

Please note. I did not attack JD. Also, please note JD called me a “spiritual masturbator” and a “fat stinking liar”, so there’s that.

[Fireball]

Not when many of the accusations here are known to not be true. Especially the brainwashing and grooming statements. But back to the thread. Saying the soul point of this forum is to only warn others of the false teaching, grooming, brainwashing etc is absurd. Anyone can look at just the last few weeks and see it is much more than that. If the forum is in existence to warn others of the truths of ECC, do they not deserve to hear all experiences, so as to make a determination why a few had a problem and hundreds did not? Oh yeah, brainwashing

.

Looking at the past few months, a person could say that the purpose of this forum is to debate whether or not GCx churches are healthy. That doesn't meat that the purpose of this forum is to debate GCx churches. It is not. It just means that a bunch of people have come here to challenge and debate on a forum that has a different purpose than that.

I would not go to the "GCx churches are Healthy" web page and say that I think people have a right to know that there are some aspects of the churches that are unhealthy because people "deserve to hear of all experiences". That would be rude.

Perhaps you all would like to start a web page dedicated to your positive experiences at a GCx church. I promise I won't post.

If that was ALL that was discussed here, I would never have posted here either. But it goes way past what you have stated. The personal attacks on several have been ruthless lately. You have a Wild West forum I would assume, but once again, only discussion that addresses theology or brainwashing is not so.  There are many assumptions, manipulations of facts that I see regularly. And when it comes to not recognizing you and others had a bad experience I have never said you didn’t. Actually I have prayed for those here who still have hurt seek the healing that only comes through Jesus. It’s just not in my DNA to hold onto or continue to talk about it for decades. I just don’t understand why, as much of what is said here is extremely hurtful, which is what bothers me. I really don’t believe anyone purposely hurt you or others here. But that is quite contrary to what is happening through this forum. Once again, I knew of this forum many years ago, and never dreamed of coming here and posting until I saw the hurt that was being administratored. You don’t have to look far to experince that. And Im not just talking about the serious attacks against JD.

Please note. I did not attack JD. Also, please note JD called me a “spiritual masturbater” and a “big stinking liar”, so there’s that.

That may have been crud, but it's a perfect figurative description of what takes place here. A less crud term would have been snowflake pharisees. They love to hear the sound of there own words, and tear things down and never build them up. When anyone criticizes them they shout at the top of there lungs in disgust, claiming wrong doing.  Is hate part of the healing process? Because that is honestly all i see. How many years does it take for you to heal 10 years? Isn't that how long you have been on here? Still talking about the same ole things, rehashing all the bitterness you have held onto this whole time?  I have read many of your posts and you tend to repeat yourself a lot.

[Greentruth]

I believe that people have good experiences in GCC, that some GCC churches are healthy, and that everything is not terrible in GCC.  Looking back at my own experience I have several friendships I cherish that started in GCC.  However, I do believe there are harmful elements in the core of the movement.  I have seen people shattered over abuse of power which originated in main GCC practices.  So...I am not really interested in giving equal time, effort, energy, and attention to good times as well as abusive times.  If there is abuse going on (and I believe there is)--full stop.  That needs to be dealt with first.  

GCC churches have their own websites, FB pages, personal testimonies, pulpits and online teachings, etc. in which they can promote and discuss all the positive things they want. This forum provides an alternative to their portrayal.  I believe this forum is a place for people who are considering becoming involved, those who are already involved but questioning some things they are seeing, and those who have been harmed and are trying to understand their experience.  They can decide if the concerns are valid and then decide their response to that (become involved, not become involved, stay involved, etc) and if anything here helps people understand and heal, that is great.  Part of healing is identifying the pain, lamenting and grieving it, and then finding a way out.  This is NOT victimhood.  

That would be great Rebel, if it where as you say, sharing your opinion then letting it go. But that is not what I see here at all. Personal attacks, and what I see as simply gossip much of the time. There have been four or five who lately I would define as in a frenzy of personal attacks against JD, several pastors, and even current members who disagree.   For someone to come here that is actually hurting or confused to read this forum would be like brining a bottle of whiskey to an AA meeting and discuss problems over a few drinks. I don’t think some here understand just how hurtful this forum is to good people who love their Church and friends who are under attack. If you really cared about other people you would dial back the personal attacks. Just as zealforgod posted, this has been way out of bounds. Sure, JD went over the top a bit, but their whole family was ruthlessly attacked by one of the founding members here, along with horrendous verbal attacks on his father that has caused serious pain. And some of this for years long before scout accusations. That is not what you describe of this forum.

[OneOfMany]

Oneoffew,  I attended an ECC Church for over 20 years. Never saw anything such has been claimed here.

Fallacy of composition.

Why is that a fallacy of composition? Is it a fact that the whole is corrupt, and a part is not? That would beg the question, I would think. The point of people saying stuff like this is that people are testifying to a good experience with the church, something that is assumed to be unlikely to some (because of "mind control" tricks).

I had lots of good experiences at Evergreen. Made good friends too. To propose that someone harmed by an abusive church did not have good experiences there is preposterous. Good experiences happen simply because there are good people in the church. And then some good experiences are part of the manipulation. People come back because of the good experiences they had. In fact a motto of "Experience God not Religion" testifies to the church creating a good experience. And then if they do want people to return, even those they target for abuse they must give those people good experiences or they would quickly leave.

[OneOfMany]

I believe that people have good experiences in GCC, that some GCC churches are healthy, and that everything is not terrible in GCC.  Looking back at my own experience I have several friendships I cherish that started in GCC.  However, I do believe there are harmful elements in the core of the movement.  I have seen people shattered over abuse of power which originated in main GCC practices.  So...I am not really interested in giving equal time, effort, energy, and attention to good times as well as abusive times.  If there is abuse going on (and I believe there is)--full stop.  That needs to be dealt with first.  

GCC churches have their own websites, FB pages, personal testimonies, pulpits and online teachings, etc. in which they can promote and discuss all the positive things they want. This forum provides an alternative to their portrayal.  I believe this forum is a place for people who are considering becoming involved, those who are already involved but questioning some things they are seeing, and those who have been harmed and are trying to understand their experience.  They can decide if the concerns are valid and then decide their response to that (become involved, not become involved, stay involved, etc) and if anything here helps people understand and heal, that is great.  Part of healing is identifying the pain, lamenting and grieving it, and then finding a way out.  This is NOT victimhood.  

That would be great Rebel, if it where as you say, sharing your opinion then letting it go. But that is not what I see here at all. Personal attacks, and what I see as simply gossip much of the time. There have been four or five who lately I would define as in a frenzy of personal attacks against JD, several pastors, and even current members who disagree.   For someone to come here that is actually hurting or confused to read this forum would be like brining a bottle of whiskey to an AA meeting and discuss problems over a few drinks. I don’t think some here understand just how hurtful this forum is to good people who love their Church and friends who are under attack. If you really cared about other people you would dial back the personal attacks. Just as zealforgod posted, this has been way out of bounds. Sure, JD went over the top a bit, but their whole family was ruthlessly attacked by one of the founding members here, along with horrendous verbal attacks on his father that has caused serious pain. And some of this for years long before scout accusations. That is not what you describe of this forum.

I suspect that you might want the drama and conversations to continue on this forum because you keep coming back to argue. If you find this forum hurtful to you then don't read it. If you think it is your responsibility to silence us or to speak up for the Darlings then you have poor boundaries. If you think you need to come here and confront us then you have poor boundaries. By coming here you keep the conversation going. There were not many posts until the Darling supporters started verbal fights with people here. I never would have posted if it were not for you and the Darlings and others who so callously come here even saying the intent is to shut this forum down.

Just leave us be. You don't like what is posted here then stop reading it and stop continuation of the conversation. Just stop.

[Greentruth]

Sorry oneofmany, you are on my list.

[omelianchuk]

To propose that someone harmed by an abusive church did not have good experiences there is preposterous.

Didn't propose that, did I? I was talking about people, who, on the whole, have had a positive experience with ECC and recommend that others go there, or at least don't oppose it. Come on, now.

[OneOfMany]

Sorry oneofmany, you are on my list.

Your prayer list? Why thank you!

What exactly are you praying for me?