When and where were you involved with GCx?

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Amesguy2001]

Ames IA, 2001 - 2011

I was saved in the Rock and attended Stonebrook. I was good friends with 2 of the pastors and helped start the international ministry. It actually was a better church than the church I originally came from. I remember when Ames sent the Iowa City Church plant. Almost all the single girls left and I was looking at dating and I remember one of my good female friends who was dating my best friend was like, "Haven't you heard, that is the NO DATING CHURCH". At the time I thought that was a little harsh but as the years went on, I saw very little dating in the church. One girl in the church once used facebook to distribute Joshua Harris' "Courtship Smortship" sermon about the flaws in in I kissed dating Goodbye. This girl was like, "PLEASE ASK US OUT GUYS!" then later she got in serious trouble and eventually left. Oh and she was one of the elder's daughters. I remember turning 30 and the pastor sitting me down and going, We think dating/marriage might be an idol in your life. I'm like, "I'm 30! There are no girls here over 25! What am I suppose to do?" (they went to Iowa City or Decorah) "Stop making marriage an idol, GOD will take care of it, stop thinking about this!"

Anyway shortly there after I talked to the head pastor and he was like, "Look, your old, we don't want you in the Rock, go check out Des Moines"

I talked to one of my friends who had been in Ames longer and he was like, Lets go out to lunch and when we did he was like, Look Stonebrook, doesn't know anything about dating or marriage, you probably should do online dating like me... shhhh don't tell anyone I said that to you.

[EverAStudent]

Amesguy2001, thanks for confirming that the practices, attitudes, "doctrines," and even books that were in use in the '70s-'80s regarding dating and relationships are still in use today in the denomination!  So much for growing, learning, changing, and letting your progress be seen by all.

What you left unsaid is that when dating is forbidden by the culture of the community then betrothal and marriage are arranged and appointed by the pastors behind the scenes.  As such, they become combination match-makers, parents, and overlords of every congregant's romantic life.  The ability to control who may marry who (by whatever manipulative means are applied) gives a person awesome influence and power over the decision making aspect of other peoples' personal and professional lives. 

Scarry.

[Linda]

Amesguy2001, welcome. Thanks for sharing your story.

EAS, Excellent observations. Especially this.

"The ability to control who may marry who (by whatever manipulative means are applied) gives a person awesome influence and power over the decision making aspect of other peoples' personal and professional lives."

When I think of all the young people who are placing themselves "under" this system of self-perpetuating leaders (often times removing themselves from the influence of their Christian families while placing themselves "under" the authority of young, misinformed leaders), I feel sick and I feel sad. I pray the leaders eyes will open to their deception and that all who have been deceived will find freedom in Christ.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I am always saddened to hear of heavy handed tactics used to control people in GCx, especially in such personal and important ways like marriage and family.

[askingquestionsaboutGCI]

We were part of Valley Brook (MD) from around 1991, moved with Oak Ridge during the "great divide", and left approximately 1 1/2 - 2 years ago.  I still have some communication with former church folks (via Facebook!!), but for anything more, I would have to be the one to reach out and do the inviting.  Sad.....

[Linda]

What was the "great divide" all about?

[BTDT]

Linda - glad I could help out with giving a little more of the "big picture".

So, you were there when McCotter left? Did people think it was odd that he left the church entirely when he went on to "pursue business interests"? Normal people can attend a church and manage a business at the same time. Was there an unspoken thought that there were other reasons for his departure, or was everyone in the mode of not asking questions?

It's been a long time (over 25 years), but I don't remember it being presented as "Jim's leaving GC", but more of "Jim's leaving Maryland to further the Gospel through business" or something close to that.  But it still smelled "fishy" to many of us...we were used to leaders coming and going and moving around a lot, but not that abruptly and not with the air of mystery.  There were strong rumors of a "parting of the ways" between Jim and GC, but as you mention, asking questions at that level wasn't encouraged.

I have a sense that there are "two" branches of the GC tree. One, is GCC and the other would be the GCM churches (who now are called the Collegiate Church Network-CCN, or something like that). My sense is that the GCM (CCN) churches are a bit less old school and are a little more "orthodox" (small o) in their Protestant beliefs while the GCC churches adhere to much of McCotter's teaching (in that they have never distanced themselves from it or corrected it publicly).

I'm wondering if you sense that as well since you mention that the GCM church you are familiar with wasn't alarming to you. GCM (CCN) churches even go as far as having their own conference, Ignite, while GCC churches do Faithwalkers. And Faithwalkers, is definitely more "old school".

I don't think GCM changed its name to CCN.  I have a friend who works at the GCM main office, and it's still intact and in Florida. From the GCM web site they list CCN as a "partner", and they say that CCN used to be called "GCM Churches".  So I'm guessing that GCM split off their association of churches (which is now CCN, and Greg Van Nada is listed on the CCN contact page).

I do think GCM is different from the old-school GCAC/GCC/whatever-it-is-this-week, and they seem much more orthodox and mainstream to me.  But evidently it's still hard to tell the players without a scorecard :-).

[askingquestionsaboutGCI]

What was the "great divide" all about?

BTDT described a bit of it in his post (http://forum.gcmwarning.com/general-discussion/when-and-where-were-you-involved-with-gcx/msg12749/#msg12749) .  Apparently, we went to that church together for a few years.... 

[crp87]

Summitview / The Rock 2005-2011

[FeministRebel]

Stonebrook Community Church, 1995-2003. The idea of starting the International Ministry was actually MINE, but I had to use a 'leader' to implant it, because as a 'rebel' I was ignored, and outcast, and all my thoughts were deemed as rubbish, and not used. So I had to use other people -- who liked my ideas -- to share them and spread them. Sad, really. lol I couldn't handle the situation there anymore, as an adult -- and not being allowed my own ideas, leadership over my own life, or my own love interests. I was interested in a man who I am more than positive was interested in me, who was told I would not make a good spouse by a pastor, and then the man immediately started ignoring me. I probably know AmesGuy. I just couldn't handle it anymore, in 2003, when I left. They wanted me to move into a rental agreement, for just one ROOM, for one of those new and expensive 'party' type apartment complexes, for a huge amount of rent -- and would NOT respect my pleas that I couldn't afford it. They were trying to pressure me into this, supposedly for reaching out to the older post-college crowd. After I put my foot down and said no, it was like the beginning of the end. There's no way I'm letting anyone bully me into debt.

[clarinet20]

I was involved with the Summitview in Greeley from 2009 till January of 2013. I left because I was treated like a 10 year old who didnt know anything about God or the Church. I was raised in the church and I was straight up told that everything I was taught was wrong and unbiblical. I also left because I used to be in a concert band and was told that it is best for me to sacrifice it for God. They were pretty controlling to me and tried to tell me what to do and was told that I if I dont do something that it is actually disobedience to God. When I moved to a city where there is another GCC I was asked on several occasions if I was going to that church. I told them no because I was led somewhere else..but you could tell by the looks on their faces that they didnt like the idea of it and you could tell that they are expecting me to fail as a christian. There were several other reasons why but that is some of it for me.

[GodisFaithful]

We were bad old days from around 1973 and into the Evergreen era, leaving in 1993, Minneapolis. 

My first problem came when we were suddenly told to tithe "or else" based on a paper from Jim McCotter.  When my husband and I asked questions about it and wanted more accountability, we were treated like we were Ananias and Sapphira.  I got the impression they thought I was whispering doubts into my husband's ears.  We were soundly rebuked for questioning ANYTHING and we were intimidated and shut our mouths but I believe that was the first real seed of doubt for us.

Another awful experience was that when Mark Darling and Brent Knox moved up from Ames they kicked out a group of people who had been in our church for a long time.  BOOM, they were out, and we were given the impression that we needed to trust this decision without questioning.  We had not had anything like that happen in Minneapolis before (because Sapphira had shut her mouth some years before) and it was devastating to us but we stuffed our emotions and compassion.  This was before the 1991 paper, but not much before.  The rumor was that the "elders" showed up at a get together some people were having about how there were some feelings of disagreements, and these people were booted.  As far as we know they were never contacted for an apology as the policy is that IF anyone feels offended by something they should go to the GC leaders. 

But the clincher was that Brent Knox warned that there was to be no "grumbling" in the church because the leaders are like Moses.  This stuck in my mind as something ridiculous.  As Evergreen became seeker-friendly we had many unbelievers coming to the church, and in my opinion, there was no plan in place to help the teens have a good experience in the church.  Many kids seemed on the verge of going off the deep end.  We also became disturbed by other seeker friendly church problems. Instead of grumbling (because we did not want to be swallowed by the earth) we went to the "elders" with our concerns and were told, without them addressing anything we were concerned about, to go to another church. Moses told us to do this so we obeyed.

The "hurt" for me is with severed friendships.  Now I understand why we were treated by some so coldly after we left.  I hear that they think that we divorced the church when we left (even though they asked us to?  Hmmmm.  How dumb!)  Actually we were never married to the church.

These churches, for the most part, are very authoritarian and controling, but it is hard to see it when you are in it.  The false teachings and subsequent harms to people's lives, could fill an entire disc drive of 4 terabytes, I am convinced. (My husband works for a company that makes disc drives.  I consulted him.  It is the biggest one out there right now.)

P.S. I would REALLY like to have a good summary of the details of the Maryland split.  I have not found it anywhere.  Thanks.

[BTDT]

P.S. I would REALLY like to have a good summary of the details of the Maryland split.  I have not found it anywhere.  Thanks.

Hi. GiF -- I've written some bits and pieces of it in this thread, and also in a Faithwalkers 2011 thread:

http://forum.gcmwarning.com/general-discussion/faithwalkers-2011/msg11428/#msg11428

There's a short timeline in there somewhere.  If you look at my profile, you can see all of my postings over the last 4+ years...the first page is most relevant, I think.

The main problems for me in writing a complete summary are (1) that was over 20 years ago, (2) I threw away a *lot* of old notes and handouts from those old-GC days, and (3) as a worker bee and very-low-level group leader, I wasn't privy to a lot of the "inner circle" discussions and stuff.  I guess there's a (4) also -- a lot happened in what seems like a relatively short period of time, so the late 80s and early 90s sorta run together in my mind (see (1) above  ).

Feel free to ask questions; it might jog my memory (and I need all the jogging I can get). I don't visit this forum as often as I used to, so please understand if I don't get back to you for a little while.

-Ed-

[steelgirl]

I was involved from 1999 to 2004 at New Life/Mosaic.  New Life Church in 1999 had an attractive singles ministry.  I overall enjoyed my experience for the 1st 2 years.  Looking back at my experience, things got weird when a lot of people moved to Orlando from New Life Church.  I was more of a free spirit than what the leadership expected, which is another story.

The thing that bothered me and still baffles me to this day is why did the leadership decide around 2001 to 2002 that the leaders had to invite people to life groups.  I eventually went to a life group.  The 1st life group did not make logistical sense, however I was not invited to the small group that logistical sense.  The life group leaders who invited me to their life group did not know me that well and were rather gracious, even though there were some problems there.  People saw me as a fringe person, yet I still got to go on a service trip with Great Commission Ministries.  I am very thankful that I got to go on a service trip with Great Commission Ministries around that time.  I am glad God chose to use me to experience that.  Between 2001 to 2003, there were a lot of things going on.  My mentor wondered why I got a college degree, and she was most likely jealous and resentful.  She even tried to control how I chose to express myself to God.  

Stuff that went on during my time at Mosaic, has made me more leery of church leadership.  I wish this blog would have been around when I left, so I can see what other people felt around 2004 or 05.  I was not fair to my small group leaders at the church that I went to after Mosaic.  I am more suspicious of church leadership.  The last church I attended, it was a good thing I did not go to 1 small group, because there were some people who ended up leading this group who I made me feel uneasy.

I eventually left because I was checking out another church where I felt was being fed.  The messages at Mosaic became so watered down, that I had to leave.  In addition, the small group I was in started to dwindle and I was ready to move on.

[margaret]

We were at Valleybrook / Columbia from 89-92.  Other GCM churches before, a church plant and other GCM Church after.  Maybe 6 in all.

[Janet Easson Martin]

I was involved with GCx in Maryland.  I met them on the University of Maryland campus in the spring of 1980 and didn't leave the group until the winter of 1991.  A very sweet christian girl from this group shared the good news about God's great love for me while I was waiting for a shuttle.  Then another girl (at a meeting I attended) lead me in a prayer of salvation through sincere faith in Jesus.  I believe the Holy Spirit inspired them both.  God's people acting out of obedience to The Spirit was God's intention and plan, and wonderfully resulted in my entering the kingdom of God.

However, within hours I witnessed and experienced from this same group a CONTROL and COMPELLING that was not of The Spirit.  When God's people are not acting out of the Spirit , but THE FLESH, it is weird and pushy and manipulative.  I was very much pressured and almost scared into getting baptized right away.  As if I would stumble without doing this immediately.  When I look back today, I see the rush and expediency was very likely part of the member's craving to be someone "worthy of acknowledging".  The most important role played by any member was to bring MORE bodies into the "group".  And so, there was a need to make your converts very much known.  One learned to 'wear' each convert or new member SOMEWHAT (or QUITE) ARROGANTLY as another star on his belt.    Enough of these additions to the groups' number and you might just become someone quite elevated in this group.  As long as the "new friends" were prevented from attending any other church group.  That would have been a failure in 'winning them over'.  Everyone seemed to almost watch each other to compare themselves as if in a competition for their own dignity.  (I think this is what Paul was referring to in addressing those under false teachers, that they had become worldly).   It was pretty clear who the successful "pied pipers" were because they were invited to meet separately with the elders often to discuss, or more precisely, judge those "less spiritual than" them.  There was an air of dignity appointed to them that others did not enjoy. It operated like an aggressive marketing pyramid.  Scheming how to manipulate and humiliate the newbies to submit to their agenda, and produce bigger results, or be ignored by their "more mature" peers and leaders.  The focus truly was on pleasing men, especially the one at the top; AND IT WASN'T JESUS.

The focus truly was on pleasing men, especially the one at the top; AND IT WASN'T JESUS.

Enough ramblings for now, but wanted to be part of this important discussion.

[margaret]

The old practices are still going on in my most recent GCM church.  It's not as egregious as what is described in Minneapolis, but ppl are leaving this church all the time. 
I spoke with one person who left before I did.  He told me that he had run into an ex-member who left the church over 18 years ago, and the man asked this person, "what took you so long?"
And these are people who left 'on good terms.'
My mistake was speaking the truth in hopes of change.  Big mistake.  I warn others who have told me that they're leaving, "make up some benign excuse.  Nothing you say will change anything."

[Stephen C]

I was involved during 1981-1991.  From the first church in College Park, MD, and then to Valleybrook.  I left before the split.

[Janet Easson Martin]

WELCOME, Stephen C. Glad to hear from fellow College Park-ers. You seem to have come in and left just after I did, also staying a decade. I wondered if many Marylanders read this site. I hope it has helped you and blessed you.

[BTDT]

StephenC - a very belated welcome!  I started with the Md church in 1984 (yes, I was one of the 64%...sigh). I stayed with Valley Brook at the split, and we all left GC together afterward.  Thank God.
-Ed-